Sanguinius in 40k?

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

If I am correct in addition to survivors there is something like 500 fresh Scouts, who are subject to the Rage. But I don't have the codex at hand so I can't check

[Dont-Be-Haten]

If I am correct in addition to survivors there is something like 500 fresh Scouts, who are subject to the Rage. But I don't have the codex at hand so I can't check

If I recall there were over 900 scouts at the end of DoB/codex. All are gen 1 marines. I wonder if the extra organs/new organs are what make the primaris immune/resistant to the black rage.

[Panzer]

As far as I know there are two theories about the Black Rage. One is that it's psychic backlash from Sanguinius death due his close connection to all his sons, the other is that it comes from the fact they took the geneseed from Sanguinius body after he was already dead.

There is no explanation for why Primaris don't suffer from it with the first theory, however with the second theory it could be easily explained by Cawl cleansing/resetting the geneseed to pre-HH times which we know for a fact he did.

 

Also yeah the BA are still producing classic Marines. The Black Rage isn't going anywhere even if Primaris were to be immune to it.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

As far as I know there are two theories about the Black Rage. One is that it's psychic backlash from Sanguinius death due his close connection to all his sons, the other is that it comes from the fact they took the geneseed from Sanguinius body after he was already dead.

There is no explanation for why Primaris don't suffer from it with the first theory, however with the second theory it could be easily explained by Cawl cleansing/resetting the geneseed to pre-HH times which we know for a fact he did.

 

Also yeah the BA are still producing classic Marines. The Black Rage isn't going anywhere even if Primaris were to be immune to it.

I'm good with Gen 1 marines keeping the Black Rage, but let the Primaris be immune to it so we only worry about the red thirst. :)

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

I would say that Primaris immunity could be as well justified with their gene-stock and the process of their creation. Cawl was working on the original geneseed stored on Terra by the Emperor, while Marine Chapters are recycling DNA of previous generations. Of course we are talking about fake science here, but I can imagine that the original gene-seed does not have the Sanguinius' death mark on it, because Eperor created it before the Crusade. Cawl also did not use Insanguination, which is commonly held responsible for gene-instability and increasing rate of BR and RT. I am not sure of this one, but i think that part of the Insanguination is injection of blood from Sanguinary Priests, who themselves have blood of Sanguinius injected in their veins - at least in the old fluff. And I am certain that the Novitiates are at least given the Priests' blood to drink before being locked in sarcophagii for tranformation. So maybe the contact with (re-used)  blood of Sanguinius is necesary to trigger BR.

 

Personaly, as someone already said in this thread, I think that BR is a proof of special relationship between Sang and his children and an inherent part of BA identity. I find it odd, that Cawl was able to cure BR and not RT, since it has always been stated that RT is purely genetic flaw, while BR has something to do with psyche. To cite Gabreil Seth:

"That is salvation, is it? (...) I say otherwise. I say it is a deliberate action against our lord’s heritage, and the work of the Emperor himself. (...) The flaw is what makes us what we are.(...) We are nothing without the struggle against it. He would make us all Ultramarines in red armour"

[Panzer]

It's not like he wasn't able to cure the Red Thirst. He decided to not do it because it appears to be a from the Emperor intended mutation of the geneseed. So all he did was to 'reset' it to pre-HH times before it degraded this much instead of removing it completely.

Also citing Seth isn't exactly helpful as he's known to have a rather extreme opinion about things lol

[noigrim]

If cloning primarchs was easy they would have done it long time ago. Cloning Horus and ferrus (by fulgrim) didn't go ok

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

It's not like he wasn't able to cure the Red Thirst. He decided to not do it because it appears to be a from the Emperor intended mutation of the geneseed. So all he did was to 'reset' it to pre-HH times before it degraded this much instead of removing it completely.

Also citing Seth isn't exactly helpful as he's known to have a rather extreme opinion about things lol

 

My bad, you are right.

And at least some of Primaris were created from exisitng marines, weren't they? So after second thoughts, insanguination is irrelevant.

[Arkangilos]

Dont-Be-Hating:

The Blood Angels recover faster than every other chapter. What takes most chapters 10 years to get their implants completed only takes them one year (they get it all at once as opposed to say the Ultras). That’s why according to lore Most chapters are considered dead when they get reduced to two companies but the BA can recover from only having 40.

 

The Black Rage is precisely why there aren’t many BA’s that are Dante’s age. Their geneseed extends their natural life span, as in they age slower and don’t die or old age like normal space marines do. Where as an ultramarines is old at 500, a BA isn’t. If it weren’t for the Black rage there would be more that were at Dante’s age. Longest lived has always meant natural life span for those who survived war and the rage.

 

Also, back in the day the Death Company wasn’t just those who fell to the black rage but also to those who fell to the thirst completely.

[Spyros]

I 've been wondering:

Until today, to trigger the gene-seed the Blood Angels used blood from the Sanguinary Priests, that are infused with blood from previous priests, down to Sanguinius' original blood. 

HOW did the legion trigger the gene-seed before the rediscovery of Sanguinius upon Baal? I don't think this has been explained before. Is Cawl using that old method for Primaris Astartes?

As for the Red Thirst and inevitably the Black Rage, I 'm sure most of you have read the "Fear to tread":

 

Legion Blood Angels Astartes have been know to fall in an uncontrollable blood lust, reducing them to mindless killers, even attacking their own Primarch, leaving Sanguinius no choice but to kill them. This had been happening in a very small number of Blood Angels (compared to present day original Astartes), but happening nevertheless even before Signus Prime, not mentioning Sanguinius' death yet. This is in fact worse that today's Black Rage, I 'd rather think that Sanguinius' death gave focus to victims of the Black Rage making them look for traitor Horus instead, and Chaplains can guide them towards the enemy, where as Sanguinius killed them outright.

 

Thus I highly doubt that Cawl has managed to eradicate the Red Thirst and Black Rage from Primaris gene-seed, and it just needs more time to start appearing again.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I 've been wondering:

Until today, to trigger the gene-seed the Blood Angels used blood from the Sanguinary Priests, that are infused with blood from previous priests, down to Sanguinius' original blood. 

HOW did the legion trigger the gene-seed before the rediscovery of Sanguinius upon Baal? I don't think this has been explained before. Is Cawl using that old method for Primaris Astartes?

As for the Red Thirst and inevitably the Black Rage, I 'm sure most of you have read the "Fear to tread":

 

Legion Blood Angels Astartes have been know to fall in an uncontrollable blood lust, reducing them to mindless killers, even attacking their own Primarch, leaving Sanguinius no choice but to kill them. This had been happening in a very small number of Blood Angels (compared to present day original Astartes), but happening nevertheless even before Signus Prime, not mentioning Sanguinius' death yet. This is in fact worse that today's Black Rage, I 'd rather think that Sanguinius' death gave focus to victims of the Black Rage making them look for traitor Horus instead, and Chaplains can guide them towards the enemy, where as Sanguinius killed them outright.

 

Thus I highly doubt that Cawl has managed to eradicate the Red Thirst and Black Rage from Primaris gene-seed, and it just needs more time to start appearing again.

This goes back to Cawl using pure gene seed strains from the vaults of Terra. They weren't present on Signus Prime or the battles leading up to the betrayal.

 

The Red thirst as you have said has always been present. The Emperor either purposefully or aimlessly hasn't told Sanguinius of his sons flaw. This is so intriguing because the "Cure" Is what Corbulo seeks, not a cure for the Black Rage but a cure for the Red Thirst! Which to me screams that falling to the red thirst is the more important flaw than the Black Rage. Even Sanguinius was searching for its "cure"

 

So if/when Sanguinius returns the red thirst will still be there, but hopefully we can do away with the silliness of the black rage. I've also always wondered why the Blood Angels kept those lost to the thirst alive in the Tower of Amaro but not the Death company members. I also wonder what Sanguinius would think of his sons if he were alive to day.

 

Those reasons are amazing wishful thinking on what kind of literature we could get about the disgust and lamentations that came to pass from Sanguinius's Visions.

[Arkangilos]

Probably because they hope the cure can cure those in the Tower. I don’t think Sanguinius would be upset about that.

 

For the black rage Corbulo probably isn’t searching for a cure because it’s psychic, not physical. They still want to fight it, which is why Lemartes is kept alive. They have hope they can all overcome it like him.

 

I don’t think Sanguinius coming back will cure the Rage. The rage was a wound caused by his death. The would would still be there. Basically the geneseed was burned by the psychic explosion. Him returning won’t take away the burn.

[Indefragable]

Dont-Be-Hating:

The Blood Angels recover faster than every other chapter. What takes most chapters 10 years to get their implants completed only takes them one year (they get it all at once as opposed to say the Ultras). That’s why according to lore Most chapters are considered dead when they get reduced to two companies but the BA can recover from only having 40.

 

The Black Rage is precisely why there aren’t many BA’s that are Dante’s age. Their geneseed extends their natural life span, as in they age slower and don’t die or old age like normal space marines do. Where as an ultramarines is old at 500, a BA isn’t. If it weren’t for the Black rage there would be more that were at Dante’s age. Longest lived has always meant natural life span for those who survived war and the rage.

 

Also, back in the day the Death Company wasn’t just those who fell to the black rage but also to those who fell to the thirst completely.

 

From one of the HH Weekender's seminars on FW "black" Book VIII: Malevolence, the writers talked about how the pre-Sanguinius IX Legion was renowned for its ability to operate entirely on its own, away from any other Imperial assets. The IX Legion gene-seed was very powerful and made for a truly agonizing transformation process. Far fewer would survive the process than any other Legion's process. The flipside of this was that the "raw material" didn't matter as much. The IX could recruit from even some abhuman or (mildly) mutant populations to sustain itself. They would all turn out as Astartes just the same.

 

One of the cognomen of the pre-Sanguinius IX was "Eaters of the Dead" because of their tendency to consume populations into their ranks as they brought them into compliance. The warfighting male populations of planets would be near nonexistent after they arrived because they would all be either dead from fighting the IX, dead from attempting to be transformed, or actually transformed into Astartes. Though we'll need the book in hand to know the details, it was also very heavily implied that the cognomen has some literal aspects as well.

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

 

Dont-Be-Hating:

The Blood Angels recover faster than every other chapter. What takes most chapters 10 years to get their implants completed only takes them one year (they get it all at once as opposed to say the Ultras). That’s why according to lore Most chapters are considered dead when they get reduced to two companies but the BA can recover from only having 40.

 

The Black Rage is precisely why there aren’t many BA’s that are Dante’s age. Their geneseed extends their natural life span, as in they age slower and don’t die or old age like normal space marines do. Where as an ultramarines is old at 500, a BA isn’t. If it weren’t for the Black rage there would be more that were at Dante’s age. Longest lived has always meant natural life span for those who survived war and the rage.

 

Also, back in the day the Death Company wasn’t just those who fell to the black rage but also to those who fell to the thirst completely.

 

From one of the HH Weekender's seminars on FW "black" Book VIII: Malevolence, the writers talked about how the pre-Sanguinius IX Legion was renowned for its ability to operate entirely on its own, away from any other Imperial assets. The IX Legion gene-seed was very powerful and made for a truly agonizing transformation process. Far fewer would survive the process than any other Legion's process. The flipside of this was that the "raw material" didn't matter as much. The IX could recruit from even some abhuman or (mildly) mutant populations to sustain itself. They would all turn out as Astartes just the same.

 

One of the cognomen of the pre-Sanguinius IX was "Eaters of the Dead" because of their tendency to consume populations into their ranks as they brought them into compliance. The warfighting male populations of planets would be near nonexistent after they arrived because they would all be either dead from fighting the IX, dead from attempting to be transformed, or actually transformed into Astartes. Though we'll need the book in hand to know the details, it was also very heavily implied that the cognomen has some literal aspects as well.

 

 

Well, if you look closely on the BA transfer sheet for HH, there is Fleash Eaters emblem listed as one of "Orders", whatever they are. So the literal part seems likely..

 

Probably because they hope the cure can cure those in the Tower. I don’t think Sanguinius would be upset about that.

 

For the black rage Corbulo probably isn’t searching for a cure because it’s psychic, not physical. They still want to fight it, which is why Lemartes is kept alive. They have hope they can all overcome it like him.

 

I don’t think Sanguinius coming back will cure the Rage. The rage was a wound caused by his death. The would would still be there. Basically the geneseed was burned by the psychic explosion. Him returning won’t take away the burn.

 

Support that (aside form Lemartes - he is constantly in grip of the Rage and has to be kept in stasis between battles, only Mephiston defeated BR). Plus, the Tower of Amareo thing had been written before it was revealed that BA transform into huge  red strigoi (I think that in the comics it was more of a metaphore) so it was not that weird.

BTW, it is interesting that although RT is genetic issue, it seems to be uneffected by warp sheningans, while rate of Curse of the Wulfen (also genetic) rises in contact with warp/deamons/midichlorians (at least on Prospero). And even more, as we know that BR can be triggered by sorccery (Angels Blade - also the simplest way to reintroduce it to Primaris).

[Spagunk]

 

Dont-Be-Hating:

The Blood Angels recover faster than every other chapter. What takes most chapters 10 years to get their implants completed only takes them one year (they get it all at once as opposed to say the Ultras). That’s why according to lore Most chapters are considered dead when they get reduced to two companies but the BA can recover from only having 40.

 

The Black Rage is precisely why there aren’t many BA’s that are Dante’s age. Their geneseed extends their natural life span, as in they age slower and don’t die or old age like normal space marines do. Where as an ultramarines is old at 500, a BA isn’t. If it weren’t for the Black rage there would be more that were at Dante’s age. Longest lived has always meant natural life span for those who survived war and the rage.

 

Also, back in the day the Death Company wasn’t just those who fell to the black rage but also to those who fell to the thirst completely.

 

From one of the HH Weekender's seminars on FW "black" Book VIII: Malevolence, the writers talked about how the pre-Sanguinius IX Legion was renowned for its ability to operate entirely on its own, away from any other Imperial assets. The IX Legion gene-seed was very powerful and made for a truly agonizing transformation process. Far fewer would survive the process than any other Legion's process. The flipside of this was that the "raw material" didn't matter as much. The IX could recruit from even some abhuman or (mildly) mutant populations to sustain itself. They would all turn out as Astartes just the same.

 

One of the cognomen of the pre-Sanguinius IX was "Eaters of the Dead" because of their tendency to consume populations into their ranks as they brought them into compliance. The warfighting male populations of planets would be near nonexistent after they arrived because they would all be either dead from fighting the IX, dead from attempting to be transformed, or actually transformed into Astartes. Though we'll need the book in hand to know the details, it was also very heavily implied that the cognomen has some literal aspects as well.

 

Was hoping someone would bring this one up. I feel that's a key component of the fluff (albeit recent fluff) that needs more mention. The gene-seed for BA is much more powerful than we have been previously led to believe. Being able to cure ab-humans is tremendous. Being able to recoup losses quickly being another huge benefit.

 

Dante deciding to make all future marines primaris seems political as well as necessary to save the chapter. However I feel like all it is doing is making a clean slate scenario for the chapter. Where I feel the decision faltered was not capitalizing on a potential weapon. I feel like the choice should stay "Become Primaris and be granted somewhat limited powers" or "become a normal marine and potentially harness vast powers to smite the emperor's foes" with a cost! Still feels like the same knife edge decision but is more sustainable. Kind of a mirror of the Blood Angel/Flesh Tearer aspect.

[Arkangilos]

Well we know Dante didn’t stick with the “all Primaris” thing, considering the codex is after that and they are still making normals.

 

Also, good stuff Indy, although I’m not sure if that’s posted in disagreement of my point or not. If it was I don’t see how it contradicts it. While it may mean it’s harder to survive, we know it can take more people, and they still only take a year as opposed to everyone else that takes a decade.

[Indefragable]

Well we know Dante didn’t stick with the “all Primaris” thing, considering the codex is after that and they are still making normals.

 

Also, good stuff Indy, although I’m not sure if that’s posted in disagreement of my point or not. If it was I don’t see how it contradicts it. While it may mean it’s harder to survive, we know it can take more people, and they still only take a year as opposed to everyone else that takes a decade.

 

My post was meant to supplement yours...not contradict in any way. :)

[tychobi]

Not sure about fluff but the LVO had a sanguinious model on display

[Spagunk]

Not sure about fluff but the LVO had a sanguinious model on display

 

LVO had a HH booth so you can get almost everything that was available during the HH open there too. Preorder for book 8 but no copies. Not indicative of anything or had any relevance to 40k so we're still left to writing fan fiction :p.

[Helias_Tancred]

I'm on the fence with this, leaning slightly towards Sanguinius coming back. 

 

At the end of the day its a pen to paper challenge. If done well it could be believable and accommodate the current lore, more than a cash grab (because GW never does cash grab moves lol!).

[Guzzlrr]

Big fan of Primartchs (not as big as Valrak) id love to see them all other than Big Ferris (which i think must be next to impossible)

 

So theres that part of me that thinks id like to see Sanguinius in 40k. would be cool to see The Imperium becoming Truly two Empires as they Loose Vigilus. its Cheap, kinda lazy but Yvraine could resurrect him.

 

Please correct me if im wrong but I believe his body is in the same state as Gulliman's was other than Actually being dead? I could Imagine him coming back to lead The Imperium Secundus in such an event. him or the Lion turning up when that happens.

[Panzer]

Big fan of Primartchs (not as big as Valrak) id love to see them all other than Big Ferris (which i think must be next to impossible)

 

So theres that part of me that thinks id like to see Sanguinius in 40k. would be cool to see The Imperium becoming Truly two Empires as they Loose Vigilus. its Cheap, kinda lazy but Yvraine could resurrect him.

 

Please correct me if im wrong but I believe his body is in the same state as Gulliman's was other than Actually being dead? I could Imagine him coming back to lead The Imperium Secundus in such an event. him or the Lion turning up when that happens.

 

Nah it isn't in the same state. Guillimans body was seconds away from death due poison and he just got trapped in stasis. Sanguinius' body is actually dead (and bloodless iirc) and put into stasis to preserve it.

Also I doubt Yvraine would revive another Primarch. They are still not really allied with the Imperium and the only reason they brought back Guilliman is because they need him to help the imperium to stand against the forces of Chaos. Mind you, not win against the forces of Chaos. They don't want any of them to actually win because that would mean they could focus on dealing with the Eldar next instead of being caught up in a thousand year old civil war.

[Arkangilos]

He also doesn’t even have any blood anymore.

[Bulwyf]

I would like to see him back in 40k. The whole argument of "dead should stay dead" ignores the actual lore of this setting. Thanks to the warp, dead creatures can in fact be brought back to the material plane. A primarch is a demigod with a massive warp presence. We have seen demons be slain and brought back from the warp countless times. Demon primarchs can die in the material plane and come back later. 

 

This process would work exactly the same for loyalist primarchs. Both Sangy and Ferrus could be brought back as Angel Primarchs and could function exactly the same as demons. They only exist for a certain time and would either be destroyed or dissipate back into the warp after spending too long in the galaxy. The Great Rift in the current timeline setting even changes that by flooding the galaxy with so much warp energy that demons can exist indefinitely (if not destroyed) in the material plane.

 

The Big E in "Master of Mankind" already summoned the ghosts of loyal warriors and Ferrus Manus to help him in battle. There is a very easy out for GW to bring back all the slain primarchs (including Konrad Curze and Alpharius) using this methodology. We know for a fact death is not real death since the soul goes to the warp after death. We've seen demons and saints of the Big E come back plenty of times in the lore. What's one more soul coming back?

[Spagunk]

I've been reading the Plague War (dark imperium) book and they elude to the fact that Big E is REALLY actively doing stuff after the great rift. So I mean I am guessing you're going to see more powered characters "blessed" by him but I still don't think even he can revive dead primarchs.

We'll see I guess. Rumors are that things get worse before they get better fluff wise.