Normal Marines or Chosen?

[CMDR_Welles]

I've been looking at my stalled Crimson Slaughter army project and thinking of switching them to Black Legion as a side project to my Death Guard. With the Chosen now being only 14 points each, is it even worth taking normal marines now? I've got 3 Cultist squads I can fill as Troops choices, and looking at the differences between Chosen and normal CSM squads, it just doesn't seem worth it. I've got two 10 man squads made entirely from Dark Vengeance Chosen, that was originally just going to be normal marine squads. Now it just seems like making them Chosen squads is the better option. I normally don't really pay attention to points optimization as I don't play competitively, but this is one of those few rare times I notice it. 

Each squad of 10 is made with the Power Fist/Bolt Pistol Chosen as the unit Champion, and then 9 Bolter Chosen, two of which have been converted with special weapons from the Raptors box. One squad has Plasma Guns, the other Meltaguns. I was thinking of running them each in a Rhino, with  a third 5 man Chosen squad (my original Chosen squad) with Power Axes, with the Land Raider with Lord (Kranon) and Exalted Champion (Draznicht).

 

Thoughts?

[Khornestar]

Chosen, every time. 1 extra point for +1 Ld and +1 attack, in addition to being able to take all those upgrades. No matter how you equip them, they seem like they're more worthwhile. Objective secured is the only perk to the regular marines, and you already have cultists to cover that role.

[Panzer]

I have to agree. Between Cultists, Chosen and Havoc regular Chaos Marines just don't have a place currently.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I disagree. You're looking at this from a lethality perspective; you're right in that Chosen are more lethal. But cultists lack durability. Their lower Toughness means that common mid-strength, high-rate of fire weapons like assault cannons and shuriken cannons wounds them 2s, and even bolters wound on 3s (wounding CSMs on 3s and 4s, respectively). And their armor is tissue paper. Sure, you can build big squads but then I hope you're running Abaddon or Cold & Bitter because they will be running, and while Tide of Traitors is a wonderful stratagem, you may not be able to use it to get onto an objective die yo table state.

 

Troop Marines can survive more attacks due to their better defensive stats and thus take defensive buffs (like all three Marked psychic powers) better. As a disposable screen or a fearless blob, sure, Cultists are superior. As an offensive unit, Chosen are better. But actually hanging onto an objective in the midfield? I'd give that one to CSMs.

[Panzer]

I'm not looking at it just from a lethality perspective.

Cultists also have the numbers to establish boardcontrol and are simply just cheaper than Chaos Marines which directly translates into available CP.

 

Also since you are talking durability: Chaos Marines are slightly less durable against Assault Cannons than Cultists. Not per model but per points per model. It just takes 1.2 AC hits to kill a Cultist and 3 to kill a Chaos Marine but it's also a difference between getting a value of ~4.17p per hit against Cultists and value of ~4.33p per hit against Chaos Marines. It becomes worse for the Chaos Marines against hits with just S5 like Onslaught gatling cannons and Heavy Bolters and against weapons with decent AP like Plasma even without overcharging.

Or to summarize everything that's not basic weaponry like Bolters, Lasguns or Pulse rifles is just as efficient if not more against Marines as it is against Cultists.

Moral is surely an issue but you don't really have to use big units of Cultists. MSU works for Cultists just as well as for any other unit. It probably equals things out against weapons that are close in efficiency like Assault cannons though. Not to mention that in clutch situations you can still pop the 2CP Stratagem to let them autopass.

 

Sure you can buff Chaos Marines with psychic powers, but you can also buff Cultists with psychic powers. A 5++ or a 5+++ probably sees more use on Cultists than on Marines due how many wounds they have to save against and worse armour so you'd actually get more value out of those on Cultists than on Chaos Marines. A -1 to-hit penalty is simply equally good for both. The question though is ... how often do you actually buff your Chaos Marines or Cultists defensively instead of units your opponent actually wants to kill like Havocs, Chosen, Terminators or Obliterators? In most cases it's probably those who are the target of those buffs instead of our Troop selections.

[Khornestar]

In either case (Cultists or CSM) I could see buffing them if there's a purpose, e.g. keeping an objective whose capture could net a victory point. I'd rather buff cultists, but that's because I'd never use CSM in this edition as they are. Terrible models, terrible rules. Conversions notwithstanding. Obviously this is an opinion.

 

More bodies = more shots and more wounds. Easy to hide. Can redeploy across the table with a 1 CP stratagem. Rapid-firing autoguns + Veterans of the Long War is a reasonably lethal combo against troops, even T4 troops. Same would go for bolters, in fairness, but I'd rather pay 50 points to hit 10/20 shots and wound on 4's with Veterans than hit 6/10 shots and wound on 3's with veterans. There's more to the game than mathhammer, but IMO the deck is stacked against CSM.

 

I'd rather hold an objective with slightly more expensive chosen rapid-firing combi-bolters in the mid-field, and have cultists hiding in the back or redeploying somewhere. 60 points for basic CSM versus 80 for the chosen with that loadout. It's not a meaningless difference, but easily worth 20 points, IMO.

 

Still no models to speak of, so I probably wouldn't use chosen either, to be honest. Maybe converted Dark Vengeance/Blackstone Fortress models. We'll see in March. Hopefully we get a new kit.

[CMDR_Welles]

Thanks for the input. Since I am using DV Chosen for my units, it isnt a problem to use them as Chosen anyway. 

Here is the one squad. The other is identical, but with Meltaguns

 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

SfPanzer, Mathammer is an illusion because you can't kill 1.2 models.

 

Also, plasma is not just as good against CSMs because in order to get the same 2+ to wound it normally gets versus Cultists, the enemy has to overcharge it. So while their numbers to kill you are the same, they're potentially killing their own models even with rerolls.

 

As for durability, Marines take buffs better. CSM in cover - easier to do with 10 models than 40 - are 2+ armor, 5+ against plasma where Cultists will get no save. Alpha CSMs under Miasma in that situation, for example, are -2 to be hit and 5+ armor against the supreme Marine killer, meaning no one's going to overcharge, so 3+ to wound. Or two 5+ saves under the Slaanesh power (armor and FNP).

 

Jugs, enjoy not holding an objective with Chosen when a single OBSEC model gets within 3".

 

Maybe my view is skewed because I play Alphas and my Legion Trait throws off the numbers for plasma. Who knows. But I win games and place top three in local tourneys consistently with Tacticals and CSMs in my army, so either I'm lucky or I know something you dont.

[Khornestar]

ObSec is a fair point, for sure. I couldn't necessarily comment on your tournament experience other than to say nice work on doing well. I'm not particularly "good" at the game, but I'd also have to see the lists you were up against to judge one way or another. Regardless, it wouldn't change your positive experiences.

 

I think I'd have no trouble whatsoever using basic CSM if there were up-to-date models for them, even if they were the worst unit in the codex. Just can't get past the (in my opinion, which has changed over time) awful kit. I may get my wish in March, we'll see.

[Trystram]

Not sure about the chosen vs csm debate but combi bolter chosen can put out some decent dakka with the new rule...20 shots for 5 man squad...wow!

[Panzer]

SfPanzer, Mathammer is an illusion because you can't kill 1.2 models.

 

Also, plasma is not just as good against CSMs because in order to get the same 2+ to wound it normally gets versus Cultists, the enemy has to overcharge it. So while their numbers to kill you are the same, they're potentially killing their own models even with rerolls.

 

As for durability, Marines take buffs better. CSM in cover - easier to do with 10 models than 40 - are 2+ armor, 5+ against plasma where Cultists will get no save. Alpha CSMs under Miasma in that situation, for example, are -2 to be hit and 5+ armor against the supreme Marine killer, meaning no one's going to overcharge, so 3+ to wound. Or two 5+ saves under the Slaanesh power (armor and FNP).

 

Honestly your completely extremely dismissive position against every post that includes math is very annoying and not exactly helpful. You see someone calculated something and immediately ignore everything else he wrote.

What I calculated above is just put in numbers what you put in words ... except that it showed that while Marines are more durable, they pay a bit too much for it in points and against many weapons they end up not being more durable than Cultists at all for their points.

 

Also to show that you seemingly just skimmed my post after seeing I calculated something: I didn't say anything kills 1.2 Cultists. I said it takes 1.2 AC hits to kill a Cultist. I also didn't say Plasma is good to get the 2+ to wound roll, I said it's more efficient against Marines than against Cultists even WITHOUT overcharging. Not that the post was about Plasma anyway, it was just an aside.

Those are not arguments for now though. Just showing how you don't even properly read such a post. So I won't expand on it.

 

I also didn't say Marines don't take any buffs better. You mentioned the psychic powers so I replied with those in minds. Obviously they benefit from cover more, that's a no-brainer however something you didn't mention before so irrelevant for my response. Also you still talk about Plasma while I showed you that pretty much any other weapon except for the most basic weapons are more efficient against Marines than against Cultists too but for that you'd have to actually read my post.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I did read your post, all of it. I'm not trying to come off as dismissive or combative, really. I'm just allergic to the fractional accounting that gets tossed around like gospel. There are soooo many environmental and psychological factors that go into a game - terrain, board state, luck, objectives, target saturation, comparative player skill, and a dozen other things besides - that basing your every list building decision on mathematical efficiency seems foolish to me.

 

I am an apologist for "bad" and "inefficient" units. I have been since 5th Edition, when I took Thunderfire Cannons that died when you looked at them sideways and Tactical Terminators that were clearly inferior to Hammernators...yet I still won tourneys with them. I have the trophies to prove it.

 

I'm aware that scientifically speaking, anecdotal evidence means little compared to statistical data, but this isn't science so I don't treat it as such.

 

I use Cultists. The low PPM is good for a squad or two for screening and board presence. But for killing the enemy, I prefer Chaos Marines. To get the most out of Cultists in the Shooting Phase, everyone always cites Cacophony and VotLW...but I'd rather use those on, say, Havocs. I don't have a morale-ignoring mechanic, either. It is my opinion then that Chaos Marines are not a useless option that is clearly inferior to Cultists.

[Khornestar]

Best to have multiple perspectives, for sure. Wouldn't want to take the rules/competitive aspects of the game too seriously. It's a fun game more than a "good" game, in the end. Not to remove player skill from the equation, but I hope my point is coming across.

[ChazSexington]

I've been looking at my stalled Crimson Slaughter army project and thinking of switching them to Black Legion as a side project to my Death Guard. With the Chosen now being only 14 points each, is it even worth taking normal marines now? I've got 3 Cultist squads I can fill as Troops choices, and looking at the differences between Chosen and normal CSM squads, it just doesn't seem worth it. I've got two 10 man squads made entirely from Dark Vengeance Chosen, that was originally just going to be normal marine squads. Now it just seems like making them Chosen squads is the better option. I normally don't really pay attention to points optimization as I don't play competitively, but this is one of those few rare times I notice it. 

 

Each squad of 10 is made with the Power Fist/Bolt Pistol Chosen as the unit Champion, and then 9 Bolter Chosen, two of which have been converted with special weapons from the Raptors box. One squad has Plasma Guns, the other Meltaguns. I was thinking of running them each in a Rhino, with  a third 5 man Chosen squad (my original Chosen squad) with Power Axes, with the Land Raider with Lord (Kranon) and Exalted Champion (Draznicht).

 

Thoughts?

 

I think, with the specific loadout your picking, there isn't much difference. The issue is that the real strength of the Chosen is their options, which you're underutilising if taking 7 bolter bros. The extra LD and Attack may be worth the 10pt, tbh though, but probably not at the cost of CPs. I would probably opt for minimum squads with what you have, from a purely competitive perspective. 

 

How do you view your lads in your head though?

 

 

I disagree. You're looking at this from a lethality perspective; you're right in that Chosen are more lethal. But cultists lack durability. Their lower Toughness means that common mid-strength, high-rate of fire weapons like assault cannons and shuriken cannons wounds them 2s, and even bolters wound on 3s (wounding CSMs on 3s and 4s, respectively). And their armor is tissue paper. Sure, you can build big squads but then I hope you're running Abaddon or Cold & Bitter because they will be running, and while Tide of Traitors is a wonderful stratagem, you may not be able to use it to get onto an objective die yo table state.

 

Troop Marines can survive more attacks due to their better defensive stats and thus take defensive buffs (like all three Marked psychic powers) better. As a disposable screen or a fearless blob, sure, Cultists are superior. As an offensive unit, Chosen are better. But actually hanging onto an objective in the midfield? I'd give that one to CSMs.

 

 

SfPanzer, Mathammer is an illusion because you can't kill 1.2 models.

 

Also, plasma is not just as good against CSMs because in order to get the same 2+ to wound it normally gets versus Cultists, the enemy has to overcharge it. So while their numbers to kill you are the same, they're potentially killing their own models even with rerolls.

 

As for durability, Marines take buffs better. CSM in cover - easier to do with 10 models than 40 - are 2+ armor, 5+ against plasma where Cultists will get no save. Alpha CSMs under Miasma in that situation, for example, are -2 to be hit and 5+ armor against the supreme Marine killer, meaning no one's going to overcharge, so 3+ to wound. Or two 5+ saves under the Slaanesh power (armor and FNP).

 

Jugs, enjoy not holding an objective with Chosen when a single OBSEC model gets within 3".

 

Maybe my view is skewed because I play Alphas and my Legion Trait throws off the numbers for plasma. Who knows. But I win games and place top three in local tourneys consistently with Tacticals and CSMs in my army, so either I'm lucky or I know something you dont.

 

 

I did read your post, all of it. I'm not trying to come off as dismissive or combative, really. I'm just allergic to the fractional accounting that gets tossed around like gospel. There are soooo many environmental and psychological factors that go into a game - terrain, board state, luck, objectives, target saturation, comparative player skill, and a dozen other things besides - that basing your every list building decision on mathematical efficiency seems foolish to me.

 

I am an apologist for "bad" and "inefficient" units. I have been since 5th Edition, when I took Thunderfire Cannons that died when you looked at them sideways and Tactical Terminators that were clearly inferior to Hammernators...yet I still won tourneys with them. I have the trophies to prove it.

 

I'm aware that scientifically speaking, anecdotal evidence means little compared to statistical data, but this isn't science so I don't treat it as such.

 

I use Cultists. The low PPM is good for a squad or two for screening and board presence. But for killing the enemy, I prefer Chaos Marines. To get the most out of Cultists in the Shooting Phase, everyone always cites Cacophony and VotLW...but I'd rather use those on, say, Havocs. I don't have a morale-ignoring mechanic, either. It is my opinion then that Chaos Marines are not a useless option that is clearly inferior to Cultists.

 

Cultists, honestly, have more durability point for point. You get almost 3 Cultists per Chosen, and you'll want to load up on options, so for the price of a single Chosen with a plasma gun you're looking at 6 Chosen. Being shot by a plasma gun obliterates either pretty much equally. You can also load up a Cultist bomb, which is still killier than anything else. I did a big post on the mathhammer of Chosen vs. Cultists in the CA thread, and it only really starts to be a more even fight if the Chosen are fully loaded up with kit, where they're much better at taking higher T units. The major kicker is really that Cultists can be taken up to 40 rather than 10, which means 40-80 dice get +1 to hit from Prescience, not 10-20 etc. They leverage buffs better purely due to unit size.

 

I've been playing between 6-10 Alpha Legion Chosen (4x Plasma gun - dog chewed the 5th plasma bro, so he's being repaired - , 1x Combi-Plasma, 1x Powerfist, 9x Power Sword) with the Cultist bomb buffs, and it functions quite well, especially wrecking vehicles (though Cultists have no big issue with that either). I agree to a degree with the durability - I lost 1 Chosen and 1 Cultist during my opponent's first turn last game (500pt of Helverin and Custodes) - but Cultists still end up losing less points to firepower purely because there's such a prevalence of high-powered ranged weaponry. Just an example, against a Castellan, it'll probable delete 2x10 Chosen or 25 Cultists with its weaponry per turn - that's a huge points discrepancy. If your meta is full of bolters, lasguns etc., power armour still works, especially if you have it in cover with the -1 trait. 

[Trevak Dal]

I mean, if we kept the ability to get chainswords for our CSMs this would be a little more moot. As it is though, chosen with chainswords (0 points, everybody can take em) get 3 attacks.

 

Chaos Marines are tactical squads who can take two specials or two heavies...and really, maybe it's my Tau experience coming in here but maybe we shouldn't put too many points into troops.

 

I run 2 10 man and cultists (rifles and stubber) and a 15 man cultist (lock in a sock with Glocks and Leader with ye old Biden Blaster (shotgun)). I tend to try and concentrate special and heavy firepower because I find better use out of it.

 

Flamer with a missile launcher is cute and all, but ones going to be out of range until Bad Things Happen or you are going to be reducing viability on the RPG to scoot and shoot.

 

Chosen are useful to take 5 guys with combiWeapon and 2 specials to run with 5 CSMs with Bolters in a rhino. You can of course overload them with special weapons but then you are painting a target on them. If possible I run a helbrute for heavy weapon and combat support mostly as Bouncers, Chief combat support is done by naked raptors in 10 man squads. (Wish the helbrutes could take the bale flamers in a helbrute fist).

 

So I got the Real Sweet Kids (cultists), out advancing or being the "wave your arms up and down like a chicken" brutes with them, rhinos moving up sideways in a wall with raptors piled in behind.

 

If there is a home objective, the cultists hump that out and play patty-cake, one Brute stays nearby, hopefully in cover, to be as Big Daddy to the Real Sweet Kids.

 

Screaming up the tables is the ball of :cuss you with three rhinos in total, sideways, with one slightly behind the others and 20 raptors.

 

Havocs further back up the Real Sweet Kids and are sitting there clinking bottles together saying "Warriors...come out to plaaaaay"

 

I got a couple of naked lords. One is near the Real Sweet Kids and havoc, the other is with the 2 exalted champs (with lighting claws), a cheer leader and a sorcerer and 5 flamer havocs in the third rhino.

 

I also have access to 10 combiplasma/melta/flamer/just Combi Bolter terminators to come down and be mean to somebody.

 

At the end of the day, I play chaos space marines, not 40k Rioters and looters.

 

If I play a tournament, I take my cheesy "guess I'm going to sit in a corner and roll dice and see what happens" T'au Sept Tau (because Enclaves get no exception on the commander rule. It really sucks to not play as the main faction of a book)

[Iron_Within]

My current opinion is Chosen are (can be) infantry blenders if they're kitted right. I played a 1000 point game against Daemons today, and my Chosen were my MVP's by far. He took a rather hard hitting list of 2 Daemon Princes, 2 30 Plague Bearer units, a unit of 3 Nurglings and a Sloppity Bile Piper.

I took:

a unit of Chosen with 3 combi flamers, 2 flamers, 1 power sword (on champ) and 3 Marines with Bolters - everyone with Chainswords,

a unit of Autocannon Havocs,

a Havoc unit of 3 Heavy bolters and 1 autocannon,

a Havoc Unit with 4 missile launchers

3 10 man cultist squads.

a Lord

a Sorcerer

a Contemptor,

a duel Butcher Decimator.

 

He setup first on a 4X4 table, spread on a frontage the max 12" in. I castle in the corner save for 1 unit of Cultists who setup the other side as bait/objective grabbers

Turn 1 went how you expect, he runs at me, my long range whittles down a unit and my cultist screen fan out. And he of course rolls a 1 for his Morale.... 

Turn 2 his charge hits some cultists but he doesn't hit home that well, he's trying to touch as many as possible and wrap, which he fails to do. My T2 my Cultists retreat and my Chosen move up. He has a -2 to hit on the Plague Bearers, 29 strong (my cultists killed 1 in combat!), they have Prescience on them I moved the flamers but not the bolter marines so they're still shooting 2 shots even though they're at 13" range. Flame on, 12 dead (with VOTLW), Then my heavy bolters and others take shots whittling them down some more. My charge happens, more dead, they pop on the morale. I killed 20 of them then the rest popped to morale.

 

Thing is, I could've hit endless cacophony for even more kills, then charge, basically a blender that is more flexible than Khorne Berzerkers and slightly cheaper.

 

Anyway, they then run and gunned up to the Daemon Prince and Flamed him to death (with Endless Cacophony/VoTLW this time) only going down to the 2nd Daemon Prince when they fluffed their attacks on the charge. 

 

CSM's could've never done that. They have 3D6 shots and 11 attacks on the charge, the only thing they have going for them is Obsec, which is not enough.

 

Don't get me wrong though, CSM have their place, it's just not killing on swathes, they camp objectives and lend fire support little more.

[Khornestar]

Looks like we're getting a sweet-ass kit that can represent either CSM or Chosen, which is pretty great! Not related to rules or which is better or how Cultists factor into the whole thing, but now we'll have proper Veterans of the Long War who aren't overshadowed by new sculpts. I'm down for bolter bros now.

[Trevak Dal]

"Sloppity Bile Piper" sounds like some stuff Bill Cosby would say.

[Excessus]

I got tired of cultists and are running CSM squads instead now. The new bolter rules is a definite improvement...

 

I'll run chosen as a special weapon bomb with as much punch as possible.

[Trevak Dal]

The new Bolter rule is cool for not csms, and I'm really glad non Astartes can't get it (yet). I expect that to be walked back soon ish.

[Excessus]

The new Bolter rule is cool for not csms, and I'm really glad non Astartes can't get it (yet). I expect that to be walked back soon ish.

 

Hopefully they won't. That rule goes back to 2nd edition, and only marines had it.