Doom of Molech supplement discussion

[Dark Bjoern]

I ordered the book, the Knight Stratagems and Warlord weapon Cards.

[1ncarnadine]

Yep, got cards and book as well. I imagine it's a good idea to get the stratagem cards now if you want them.

 

Also, BoLS has a review of the book up where if you squint you can see the new Legio traits, rules, etc. I've spared you folks the eye strain if you so wish, and summed up the new Legio rules here

Crucius:
-very repair & reactor management focused
-Their first trait, Forgeborn, allows them to re-roll Damage Repair rolls of 1 in the Damage Control phase and under Emergency Repair Orders but only for the first and second rounds, and their 2nd, Pride of Ryza, makes Repair rolls of 6 used to Vent Plasma decrease your reactor level by 2 rather than 1.

-Two pieces of equipment, the Terminus Override System (one-use, the first time you're required to roll on Reactor Overload table, give the Titan a Shutdown Order instead) and Bi-folded (?) Plasma Containtment (you can roll a D6 when using a weapon with Draining; on a 4+ you can roll two Reactor dice and choose your result, but on a 1 you have to roll 2 Reactor dice and choose the worst result, with an Awaken Machine Spirit trumping the 2 level increase)

-they do look very black compared to the screenshots from the stream with Andy Hoare (the Reaver and Warlord linked here, for reference)

-no Legio-specific Stratagem, apparently! Just x2 Traits and x2 Equipment
-Princeps Traits are Collegia Lord (a command check roll of 9 or 10 made for the Princeps' Titan allows you to issue orders to all other Titans in the maniple without rolling), Mechanicum Born (one per DC phase you can re-roll one Repair die), and Black Banner (if the battlegroup has no Tertiary Objective, gain Tertiary Objective "Salvation of Crucius," which gives VPs if the Princeps' Titan is not destroyed or structurally compromised at the end of the game)
 

Fortidus:
-on top of the Trait Children of Mars, which was shown in a WHC preview, they have Lost Sons, which lets them do as Gryphonicus and replace Warhounds with Reavers in any maniple. The rule also clarifies that the Titan counts as whatever it replaced and uses the Venator maniple rule as an example.
-Stratagem "For the Red Planet" (2), can be used whenever a Titan activates to ignore the effects of Critical Damage in any one location until the beginning of the next round
-Stratagem "Red Skies" (1), reveal when suffering a Magazine Detonation or Catastrophic Meltdown result on the Catastrophic Damage table to add 3 (or 5?) to the Titan's scale when resolving the effects

-no equipment
-Princep Traits are Broken By Treachery (when targeting a Titan with scale > or = the Princeps' Titan, you may re-roll the dice for its first attack roll of the game, but must re-roll all if multiple shots), Immortal of Mars (counts Crit Damage to Head as one lower), and Soldier of the Crusade (+1 Stratagem point!)

-scheme is a lot more rusty orange/brown than they described on stream, with white as a secondary and red as a spot color. Very Martian looking.

 

Vulcanum:
-Two traits, Two-Faced God (you can nominate two Princeps Senioris in your battlegroup but they may not be part of the same maniple - interesting implications - and if one is destroyed, the other counts as having Princeps Wounded for the rest of the game) and For the Fallen (for each Vulcanum titan destroyed you get a re-roll for any single dice roll that can be used once/round)
-Stratagem = Symbiotic Commands (1), play in Strategy phase when successfully issuing an order to issue the same order to one or all Vulcanum Titans in your battlegroup (not maniple!) without having to make a command check
-Equipment 1 is Twinned Machine Spirits, which pairs two Titans that each need to buy the upgrade. Titans w/ TMS count as being part of a squadron with each other (!!!), but if either Titan rolls Awakened Machine Spirit then both Titans need to make a Command Check
-Equipment 2 is Janus (?) Pattern Missiles, which looks to be a 20 point upgrade that lets you split the fire of any missile launcher however you like as long as the other target(s?) are w/in 12" of the main target

-Traits are True Born (+3 to Command Checks when issuing orders to Princeps' Titan, but if you roll a 1 no more Command Checks can be made in the entire battlegroup that turn), Divided of Mind (if the Princeps fails a Command Check, roll the Order dice and apply whatever the result is anyway, unless it's Shutdown in which case you can choose to apply it or not), and War's Orphan (can push reactor if it's in last red hole but takes a S9 hit to Body each time you push in this way)

Interfector:

-oh my 

-from what I can make out they seem to have been forced into service of the Warmaster somehow, which had the side effect of driving them loony
-Trait = Creeping Madness, which allows you to choose to allow Madness to take over when activating a Titan in the Movement Phase. You then roll a D6 and consult the insanity table... 1-2 is a Charge Order & you must charge the nearest enemy possible by the shortest route, 3-4 is a First Fire order with a random weapon towards the nearest target w/ +1 Strength and Dice, but you then disable that weapon, and 5-6 is a Static Scream that forces everything w/in 12" to remove their current Orders unless they're under Emergency Shutdown or Repair Orders.

-Stratagems = "Portents of Doom" (1?), reveal in strategy phase & prevents any enemy Titan or Knight banner w/in 12" of an Interfector Titan from being issued Orders this round, and "Tormented Machine Spirit" (1?), played when you're about to roll on Awakened Machine Spirit table to make an attack with all of the Titan's weapons against the closest model (friend or foe) instead of rolling on AMS
-Wargear is Static Rounds; Reavers or Warhounds with Vulcan Mega-Bolters can take them, & it modifies the Rapid trait when firing against targets with active void shields to count hit rolls of both 5 or 6 as generating 2 extra hits each rather than 1 (!!!). It doesn't work if you needed a 6 to hit.
-Personal Traits are Dark Fanatic (1st time suffering Catastrophic Damage, roll a D10 & a result of 6, 7, 8 or 9 allows you to ignore it, but for any other result you automatically suffer Catastrophic Meltdown), Raving Madman (when rolling a D10 you can count rolls of 9 as 6 or rolls of 6 as 9.... odd), and Hollowed Out (Titan does not get bonus to Command rolls for being Princeps Senioris, but ignores any damage effects from Crit Damage to the head)

 

 

edit: oh, and the Fortis Maniple trait does indeed allow you to merge void shields between two Titans, and ignore armour modifiers from structural damage or flanking attacks from the side or rear. The catch is that both Titans have to be in base contact and neither can move at all. Very static but still powerful.

[Sherrypie]

Hmm, the implications of titans counting as what they swapped are interesting if that is indeed so, mainly for Venators and Regias. Moonwalking Corsair Warhounds of Solaria was already a thing, so why not go all in with the others too :D

 

I'll have to write a new tactica essay after I get this book, I've got a hunch it might change a few things around.

[1ncarnadine]

The other rule I found noteworthy was the Vulcanum reference to Princeps Senioris. It wasn't completely clear to me that they were 1 per maniple or 1 per battlegroup, but it seems like it's the latter.

 

Twinned Machine Spirits looks super fun, though. The Warlords in a Regia maniple could pair with each other and then possibly sub-network some void shield hits onto their Warhound courtiers, or you could run 2 pairs of Reavers under Corsair... lots of possiblities

[DuskRaider]

I'm digging the Fortis Maniple. Two backline Warlords sharing shields while the smaller guys move up on the hunt.

[1ncarnadine]

My apologies folks, I actually misread Fortidus's Lost Sons trait as letting them replace Warhounds with Reavers.

 

It's actually that they can alter ONE mandatory component Titan in any or all of their maniples to any other Titan, and that Titan counts as whatever it replaced (the example given is that if you swap a Warhound in a Venator Maniple for a Reaver, that Reaver will still count as a Warhound for that maniple's special rule). So they have that and then basically Fearless from Children of Mars.

 

I'm still letting the ramifications of Lost Sons settle in but dang that seems potentially quite powerful...

 

There are 3 powerful uses of this rule that came to mind immediately:

1) replace the Reaver in a Fortidus Venator maniple with a Warlord

2) replace either the King/Queen in Regia or the Courtier with a Reaver

3) replace a Warhound in Lupercal with a Reaver (or Warlord, but I think Reaver is best as it stands a chance of keeping up with Warhounds) as it lets you form/reform the Titans in the maniple into Squadrons

 

2 & especially 3 have some funky rules interactions regarding squadroning and sharing shields, but could be pretty cool. #1 is very mean and clearly works under the rule, though.

[Marshal Loss]

Holy bleeping Interfector looks so good

 

 

We give thanks to Letsyoudown for straining his eyes so that we mortals need not

[Mandragola]

I reckon a good swap would be to put a warlord in a venator maniple, instead of a reaver. Pew pew.

 

Overall the four new legios all look fun. Titandeath has some disappointing legios but Molech’s four are all solid, I think.

 

Acastus knights are mentioned. It’s very hard to read the rules for knights but they are there. It says that a lance has to have three banners and two of them have to be the same type, and then Acastus is mentioned as one of the types.

 

I couldn’t figure out if you’re allowed to take a maniple and a knight lance. There seem to be a lot of random tables to roll on for knight households, and not too much else.

[noigrim]

Crucius looks strong, as good as astorum

[1ncarnadine]

Acastus knights are mentioned. It’s very hard to read the rules for knights but they are there. It says that a lance has to have three banners and two of them have to be the same type, and then Acastus is mentioned as one of the types.

 

Nice!!! Here's hoping those drop in plastic in the next 3 months or so. I guess I'd expect a kit priced around the Warhound, maybe a little less, with 2 Acastus/box? 

 

I did more squinting at those Knight rules pages and took more notes:

 

-In a Household Force, you select Lances made up of exactly 3 mandatory Banners of Knights, of which at least 2 have to be the same type (Questoris, Acastus or Cerastus). One Banner in a Lance is nominated to contain the High Scion of the Lance (who must be clearly designated, and adds +2 to command checks for his banner while alive in the same manner as a Lord Scion)

 

-Household Forces gain 2 bonus Stratagem Points for each High Scion in their force, and High Scions re-roll hit rolls of 1 when using their WS

 

-one Lance in your force can get a Seneschal rather than a Lord Scion or High Scion, and he adds +3 instead of +2 to command checks in his banner on top of having the same +2 Stratagem Point bonus as a High Scion. Seneschals also re-roll any to-hit rolls of 1, and get a Knightly Quality trait. There are some other rules, including the option for another Knight in the Seneschal's banner to buy a Battle Standard with a 12" aura effect that lets you re-roll failed command checks when shaken

 

-Lances deploy & activate like Squadrons of Titans, and Banners within a Lance have to maintain a 6" coherency with at least one other Knight from another Banner in the Lance

 

-Under a Household Force, all of the Knights in a Banner have to have identical main armament, but can do as they wish with other options such as meltaguns & rocket pods

 

-Freeblades are basically just a way of taking a Household Support banner (any kind of mix'n'match & not part of a Lance) in a Household Force

 

-Household Force Knights can be issued a Coordinated Strike Order now.... and from what I can make out from the example text, you basically see how many Knights are within some kind of range limit and LOS, select their main weapon profile and fire once with it with its normal number of dice, then add 1 strength for each Knight who met the range/LOS requirement (the example given is a Banner of 3 Questoris Knights firing a Coordinated Strike with Avenger Gatling Cannons at S6, with S3 base and then +1S for each Knight). I couldn't make out how this works with melee weapons...

 

-one of the new Traitor Stratagems is War Lust, and I'm only bringing this up because I'm obsessed with making Vulpa melee Warlords work (they don't and probably never will, but I just have to try). It adds +2" to the boosted speed of all your Titans that turn, and +2 to command checks to issue Full Stride orders. Nice.

 

-there are also Earthshaker Mines and Quake Shells for breaking up pesky Warhound squadrons or anything else sharing shields, with both causing a Titan to scatter D6" after resolving damage effects

[Perry]

Well thats good news about the Acastus Knights being a future release, looking forward to having a banner of them.

[Sherrypie]

War Lust sounds awesome, I really want to do that full on melee force of Vulpas surging onwards (from counts as wormriders ala Dune). Even Disruptor Field Warhounds can kick d3 times at Str 9, hitting on 3+, so there's no escape from a good old trashing even if they shoot down the actual combat engines :D

[noigrim]

So: (high scion +2)+(lord scion +2)= +4 o_0?

[RipOffProductions]

Well thats good news about the Acastus Knights being a future release, looking forward to having a banner of them.

I assume they'll come in boxes of two, sense they're about the same size as Warhounds.

 

but that same large scale almost makes me hope they'd be deployed in "banners" of only one model each, getting a whole command terminal to itself, if only to give a pure knights army some kind of heavy hitter on par with lower tier titans(we are going to be getting some type of scout Titan that is smaller then a Warhound, which in turn means smaller then the Acastus, so that will be interesting to see how that overlap is handled).

[1ncarnadine]

So: (high scion +2)+(lord scion +2)= +4 o_0?

 

Nope, I goofed that up, sorry I've edited the post to fix the error. The High Scion replaces a Lord Scion in one Banner of a Lance, and gives the same +2 command roll bonus to its own Banner. In addition, a High Scion can re-roll 1s to hit when using their WS, and you get 2 bonus stratagem points for each High Scion or Seneschal in your force.

[DuskRaider]

I am looking forward to the Acastus release. That kind of firepower will be needed if Knights are to stand much of a chance against a Titan Maniple. The Porphyrion in particular should be able to dole out pain to the big boys. I'm hoping we'll see Atrapos (which would be VERY helpful) and Mechanicum Knights eventually as well.

[Mandragola]

The new coordinated fire (or whatever it’s called) order is an odd one. Thinking about it, it only really feels good for guns with a really high rate of fire, such as wardens and maybe castigators. That’s because 8 shots at S6 probably are better than 24 shots at S3 – which can’t really hurt anything. It doesn’t make anything like as much sense to have battlecannons fire 2 shots at S8 instead of 6 at S5, or thermal cannons fire only a single S11 shot.

 

The issues is that, from what I can tell, you seem to give orders to whole lances rather than individual banners. So you’d want to have a whole lance made of wardens and castigators to really make use of the order. That actually might be totally ok if running an all-knight list, as you’re obviously going to need loads of them. But for most of us the idea of buying 27 questoris knights, to have a lance of each type, is a big ask. The best thing of all might even be to have double-avenger knights, but that’s really a lot of gatling guns to buy!

 

It might not be so bad with a Cerastus banner in each lance, I suppose. You could go for something like a lance of 2 warden banners and a castigator, one of two paladin banners and one Acheron, and one of two errant banners and some lancers.

 

When (and if) Acastus knights appear I don’t know whether you’ll want to have them in lances. They might be better off on their own, with the option of spreading out. I doubt they’d want to have to keep up with the little guys and they are probably going to want first fire orders.

 

It might be that you want to run some of the knights as normal banners outside of lances anyway, to increase your activation count. This might be the thing to do with paladins, if you take them at all. The problem with paladins is that the 6 S5 shots they can chuck out are clearly worse than the 8 S6 shots you get from a banner of wardens coordinating fire. The upside is that they don’t need any orders and they can fire wherever they want – or charge things - so I think it would make sense to run them independently. It might be worth sticking missile launchers on them too.

[Sherrypie]

I highly doubt it's for the whole Lance or nothing, probably more along the lines of existing squadron orders. Thus you can give similar orders with one roll or allow individual Banners to do as they like, but importantly they activate and deploy as one.

 

I'd be very surprised if it wouldn't be so, especially given one of House Devine's traits requires you to Charge every turn at least with somebody in that Lance, not to issue a Charge for the whole Lance.

[1ncarnadine]

The new coordinated fire (or whatever it’s called) order is an odd one. Thinking about it, it only really feels good for guns with a really high rate of fire, such as wardens and maybe castigators. That’s because 8 shots at S6 probably are better than 24 shots at S3 – which can’t really hurt anything. It doesn’t make anything like as much sense to have battlecannons fire 2 shots at S8 instead of 6 at S5, or thermal cannons fire only a single S11 shot.

 

I 100% agree. Coordinated Strike looks to mostly be a way to make gatling cannons dangerous. I think there are still times when you may want to use Coordinated Strike with something else, maybe to bump up strength vs the ion shields of other Knights, or to damage a Titan when you have no other Armour roll or Strength bonuses and too low a base Strength on your weapon, but the majority of the time it's all about Old Painless.

 

I highly doubt it's for the whole Lance or nothing, probably more along the lines of existing squadron orders. Thus you can give similar orders with one roll or allow individual Banners to do as they like, but importantly they activate and deploy as one.

 

I'd be very surprised if it wouldn't be so, especially given one of House Devine's traits requires you to Charge every turn at least with somebody in that Lance, not to issue a Charge for the whole Lance.

 

Yeah, Lance Orders had basically the same wording as Squadron Orders. It's very flexible. You can execute a Lance Order and apply it to which Banners you choose, and then Banners in the Lance that didn't get that Order can go for something else.

[Mandragola]

Ahh ok, that's all right then. I've currently got 3 each of wardens, errants and paladins, plus two lancers. I was a bit worried I'd need 9 of each questoris to make a usable force, which would have been rubbish.

 

One thing I haven't been able to figure out from reading the preview is whether I'm allowed to take a lance of knights along with a maniple of titans. I do actually have enough knights to do this - though they aren't yet painted. 

 

I haven't picked what house to paint my knights as either. I'd quite like to go for Tanaris, but my titans are Astorum and they weren't present on Mars. I guess I could make them a small maniple of one of the Mars-based legios. A Fortidus venator maniple with a warlord instead of the reaver might work, as I like the idea of landing a volcano or quake shot on a target that lost its shields.

[Dark Bjoern]

Ahh ok, that's all right then. I've currently got 3 each of wardens, errants and paladins, plus two lancers. I was a bit worried I'd need 9 of each questoris to make a usable force, which would have been rubbish.

 

One thing I haven't been able to figure out from reading the preview is whether I'm allowed to take a lance of knights along with a maniple of titans. I do actually have enough knights to do this - though they aren't yet painted. 

 

I haven't picked what house to paint my knights as either. I'd quite like to go for Tanaris, but my titans are Astorum and they weren't present on Mars. I guess I could make them a small maniple of one of the Mars-based legios. A Fortidus venator maniple with a warlord instead of the reaver might work, as I like the idea of landing a volcano or quake shot on a target that lost its shields.

Genious minds think equal, Brother! My Knights will be House Taranis. I have 23 40K Knights of Taranis. So what else should my AT Knights be?

[Mandragola]

Yeah my 40k knights are Tanaris too. I’ve got a few good reasons not to though. For starters, my Astorum guys are based on mud, which is clearly not on Mars, and I’d like to use them together. For another, it’s likely that we’ll get rules, an official colour scheme and maybe transfers for them at some point in future, but I’d rather paint my guys now. And also they are dark blue, very like my Astorum guys, meaning that they’d probably look too similar.

 

All of which means I’m not really sure what to go with for my knights. I might have a look through the HH books for inspiration.

[DuskRaider]

Hmph... the more I read about fielding a Knight army the more it almost seems like GW was having second thoughts about it. Extremely restrictive rules-wise, especially if you want to get the most out of them.

[1ncarnadine]

All of which means I’m not really sure what to go with for my knights. I might have a look through the HH books for inspiration.

 

You could do them as a Horus Heresy-era House Terryn? As a bonus, they're listed in the Titandeath supplement as fighting alongside Astorum at Beta-Garmon. You might even be able to use some of the transfers off of a 40k Imperial Knights sheet if there are any small enough?

[Sherrypie]

Hmph... the more I read about fielding a Knight army the more it almost seems like GW was having second thoughts about it. Extremely restrictive rules-wise, especially if you want to get the most out of them.

That's a good thing in a game about titans. They should have some operational friction in their organization to counteract their multitude of exceptions to basic rules. Approaching such from a more conservative point of view allows us to see how they fare without breaking the game. If they struggle, it's easy to add extras like Household Traits later on to close the gap, while nerfing is less preferable with printed publications.