Doom of Molech supplement discussion

[Mandragola]

I like to think that my whole Astorum battle group appears in a flash of light at the start of the battle, or moments before. I don't think I'd spend 4 stratagem points on teleporting a warhound, even in games where I had enough points to do so.

[RipOffProductions]

She means Tempestus' combat drop. That can deep strike a scale 6 or less Titan on the field, which would fluffwise be teleporting for Astorum.

I'm still surprised that there aren't rules representing the Warp Runner's namesake, heck the game already uses scatter dice, so adding that extra sort of risk/reward to deploying Teleporting Titans would be nice.

[Sherrypie]

Like Mandragola, I think that's somewhat baked in their extra speed in the beginning. Teleporting anything directly in the situation is risky with individual persons, teleporting huge engines without problems something else entirely. For the sake of the game, I think that kind of power is better realized in some campaign rules for rapid redeployment because it is more logistical in nature than the already constrained clash that is a normal game represents.

[Mandragola]

I think you could have some fun in a campaign. Say linked games of kill team, with scouting forces trying to set up teleport homers to bring in Astorum titans. The better they do the closer the titans can appear.

[1ncarnadine]

On Vulcanum, my take would be:

 

- You gain an extra Senioris, aka n+1 where n is your number of maniples, who can be in a support titan or part of some other maniple than their twin is. Given that the penalty for the clone dying is quite severe, though, so I would not really be too aghast if someone wanted to play with the interpretation that you get 2*n Senioris. It's a bit better, but it does imultaneously grant your opponent an easy way to hurt your ability to do things by killing those multiple targets to spread bad problems among your other engines. Both seem fine, at least until tested thoroughly for lolz OP shenanigans with six Senioris or something on the field 

 

yeah, Two-Faced God is neat but strange however it's interpreted. It seems like a discussion a Vulcanum player will have to have whenever playing against someone who hasn't faced them before. It can change how you build lists, too. Under my first interpretation of the rules last week, it seemed like a good idea to build Vulcanum lists as a maniple + one support Titan (who could then snag the Princeps Seniores from Two-Faced God and link to the maniple's PS, as well as potentially squadroning with something in the maniple). But then I wanted to be more sure of what people thought before going crazy and building anything, in case I went too far and people did end up calling shenanigans :P

 

 

- You can twin many engines, but as we remember from the main Squadron rules, to Squadron you need to be from the same maniple. No shenanigans there.

 

It turns out you're definitely correct, but it took me a while to find the rule... it's actually in the Assembling a Battlegroup section, on p.54: "Note that Titans that are reinforcements cannot be part of a Squadron with Titans that are part of a maniple, and vice versa." Good to know 

 

As a follow-up: if I have two minimum Venator maniples, is there nothing to stop me from squadroning the two Reavers? I'm not sure they intended this, but the language they've used leaves open the possibility... They make a distinction between Titans in a maniple and Titans that are reinforcements in two places, but nothing for Titans in different maniples. The whole Assembling a Battlegroup section needs much firmer writing 

 

 

 

- Janus missiles are normal attacks, it just allows you to split in a different way without doing Split Fire (different way being that it's the same weapon that can be split). You can't fire at targets that are out of your arc and range, the basic rules seem to override this concern.

 

it isn't really listed as a normal attack, though. Any dice allocated to the main target are, but then the dice from the split are "...either applied to the main target or any other target within 12" of the main target, provided that they are within range and line of sight." (emphasis mine) These are definitely cluster missiles of some kind, so if they're depicting a type with a sharply parabolic arc (they boost up, disperse at the apex, and then the cluster munitions fall on pre-programmed targets), then the rules could make a lot of sense.

[Mandragola]

As much as I like this game, I do think it would be nice if FW playtested their rules a little bit with other people. I think these rules are a classic case of developers testing their own rules. They know what they mean, but they very often fail to explain what they mean in writing.

 

These aren't minor complaints. Stuff like the question of how the interfector rule interacts with existing orders, or what on earth the vulcanum rules even do, are pretty fundamental. As has been mentioned above, anyone playing these legios now has to have a conversation with their opponent before the game to work out how to play them.

 

For the actual interpretation of the Vulcanum twins thing, I don't really think it's intended that a vulcanum battlegroup should feature two maniples and four senioreses. Also, it doesn't make a lot of sense to have reinforcement senioreses (a word I really hate btw) as some seniores traits affect the maniple they're in - so they'd do nothing outside a maniple. I think the rules were just written by someone who didn't realise that you normally have a seniores in every maniple anyway, as they were written before the faq came out, and that's why they don't seem like an improvement on what everyone else can do.

[Sherrypie]

Everything is a normal attack unless explicitly listed otherwise, but I see the point about dispersing warheads going out of arc as long as the original target was in there. Wouldn't really mind playing against them that way either, it's an upgrade that costs points after all. Paying to increase the flexibility of a Warlord's weaponry is nice.

 

As for the squadroning, I don't have the rulebook with me for a couple of days but I'm fairly sure there is a requirement to be within the same maniple in order to do so.

[orz]

As much as I like this game, I do think it would be nice if FW playtested their rules a little bit with other people. I think these rules are a classic case of developers testing their own rules. They know what they mean, but they very often fail to explain what they mean in writing.

 

These aren't minor complaints. Stuff like the question of how the interfector rule interacts with existing orders, or what on earth the vulcanum rules even do, are pretty fundamental. As has been mentioned above, anyone playing these legios now has to have a conversation with their opponent before the game to work out how to play them.

 

They need an actual rules editor.

 

More Interfector Madness "fun"- what does the first result even do? Is it just a more restricted Charge order? Or since it doesn't mention turns like basic Charge, does it let you charge outside your front arc but only against the closest enemy? I have no idea what the intent of this ability is.

[1ncarnadine]

senioreses (a word I really hate btw)

 

as another example of what's up with the writing, I'm still confused as to the correct spelling of Seniores. I've seen it show up, in the rules, spelled Senioris and Seniores to refer to the same case. It drives me nuts 

 

 

As for the squadroning, I don't have the rulebook with me for a couple of days but I'm fairly sure there is a requirement to be within the same maniple in order to do so.

 

I've been looking and haven't seen it, but I'm also someone who lost track of the "Ignoring Void Shields" box in the combat rules for several days/games straight  "dang I was certain there was a rule about void shields within 2", oh well I guess you get saves against my power fist..."

[Sherrypie]

 

 

As much as I like this game, I do think it would be nice if FW playtested their rules a little bit with other people. I think these rules are a classic case of developers testing their own rules. They know what they mean, but they very often fail to explain what they mean in writing.

 

These aren't minor complaints. Stuff like the question of how the interfector rule interacts with existing orders, or what on earth the vulcanum rules even do, are pretty fundamental. As has been mentioned above, anyone playing these legios now has to have a conversation with their opponent before the game to work out how to play them.

They need an actual rules editor.

 

More Interfector Madness "fun"- what does the first result even do? Is it just a more restricted Charge order? Or since it doesn't mention turns like basic Charge, does it let you charge outside your front arc but only against the closest enemy? I have no idea what the intent of this ability is.

The text is very clear. You gain the Charge order, with all its restrictions, and within your possible moves must try to engage with the closest enemy as the mad rage of murderlust takes over. What's confusing about that? In the spirit of the game it's reasonable to assume they mean the closest enemy you can actually get in grips with (or its direction), instead of being too hung up on going for the absolute closest if it is impossible.

 

The point is, you get free Orders and fun stuff with the risk of just durdling around if you want to give in to the madness. That's power, too.

[noigrim]

Really enjoyed reading the description of the planet, noe I'm torn between a map aftermath campaign or the narrative games using metalica as fortidus (basically same scheme).

Thanks to the extensive description I can make a more detailed map than beta garmon 2

 

Interfector has some shoddy rules, the wording literally forces you to get charge even.if the enemy is now within the frontal arc, another result erases all your strategically placed orders, so useful! Pity aa their scheme is just beautiful

As per wording the only way to bring two senioris in vulcanum is to get either two maniples or a support manipleless titan

[Marshal Rohr]

Did this book go into detail about the lore difference between the three types of houses?

[Zhiv]

Did this book go into detail about the lore difference between the three types of houses?

 

Not really, the book details six houses of the Molech - all whom are technically 'Imperial'. 

[noigrim]

Yo Atia, now you can use your skitarii with a stratagem (pg78 top left)

[Atia]

Yo Atia, now you can use your skitarii with a stratagem (pg78 top left)

 

I knoooow!

 

Currently planning to represent the "titan hunters" with small bases of Secutarii Peltasts, Skitarii Rangers, Thallaxii, Robots etc. The flyer stratagem gives me the chance to paint up my Forumware Lightnings for Legio Mortis too!

 

For the Secutarii Phalanx - tbh it seems like an editor oversight because there is NO reason this is loyalists only lol - so I'm gonna houserule it. But yeah, great to represent my future Secutarii Hoplites (already saw the prints from vanguard and they are sooooo cuuuuute ).

[noigrim]

BTW these could work great as mallahgra for the hunt minigame

 

 

Now, to greenstuff eyes or not?

[Atia]

BTW these could work great as mallahgra for the hunt minigame

 

 

Now, to greenstuff eyes or not?

I got some cute knight sized raptors for the hunt game - try to get some pics tomorrow

[noigrim]

Nice!

 

Oh boy S 12 plasma anihilator! Now the volcano is even more useless

[Sherrypie]

Belicosa isn't useless, it's very good at the long range crack-their-armour / delete-knights job. Range is very much a superpower, especially when you go to 6'x 4' tables.

[noigrim]

Yea but at long ranges everyone will have their shields up

 

About the stratagems:

Living metal seems the best traitor one

Overcharged cannon is a nice buff for plasmas

Titankiller infantry is really good as you can spam annoying critters to distract the enemy and cause troubles to knights and shields

[Mandragola]

There are some quite good tertiary objectives too. I like Justice for the Fallen (I think that’s it’s name, afb) that gives 5 points if you kill at least as many units as you lose. Pretty easy to do for my myrmidon maniple.

 

Have you guys seen the knight cards? They have some strata for knight houses that aren’t in the book. There’s one for Mamaragon that says a banner can’t attack or be attacked at all for a turn.

[Sherrypie]

Yea but at long ranges everyone will have their shields up

You can have a forward group that takes care of that caveat while shooting from further behind with the Belicosa. Missiles and stratagems can also do a number on them. Over 1500 points, if terrain doesn't block you, it isn't too hard to force one engine to lose its shields at range etc. Knights don't have them regardless of the range.

 

Different roles, anyway, though I agree that it is naive to think of the Belicosa as some superdeathgunofdoooom that is always good compared to others. Nah. It's still good in moderation.

[Mandragola]

I’m definitely also in the anti-bellicosa camp. I think they are overpriced and bad for killing titans. Sunfurys are far better.

 

A bellicosa hit will often result in a crit or two, but tends not to structurally compromise the location. A decent repair roll can fix most of that.

 

A sunfury gives you more hits, so more structural damage. That often goes off the end of the row resulting in extra crits, and dead titans.

 

It’s a real shame so many warlords out there Have double bellicosas. It’s a very expensive way to blow yourself up, rather than the enemy.

[Perry]

Its great that people are using fewer Bellicosa, gives my Knights an easier time.

[Mandragola]

Its great that people are using fewer Bellicosa, gives my Knights an easier time.

It’s interes how knights work out. Volcano cannons, meltas and plasma blastguns are great for killing knights. Gatling guns and Vulcan bolters aren’t much good at all. I could imagine that you’d find some Titan load-outs pretty useless against them, and others really good.