Vanguard Primaris Marines - Intro Thread

[Ishagu]

I don't really get the Vanguard aversion.

It has always been extremely silly to me that Scouts, the chapter's newbies, look and act like spec-ops troops - but then both the aesthetics of that and in most cases the tactics are discarded once experience is gained.

The idea that Scouts who excel at these tactics are put on a separate advancement path - one where they double-down on this stuff instead of abandoning it - makes a lot more sense than the present status quo.

100%

 

The idea that you specialise and then throw it away is stupid. Old lore is far from perfect in a lot of cases.

 

The Primaris units are more specialist than generalist, and I'm very happy with the Vanguard teases thus far.

[GreyCrow]

It’s not about specializing it’s about basic special force training.

 

Marines are not Imperial Knights, they are special forces.

Positioning, the ability to survive, identify and engage in winning battle is what make Marines’ training superior in the Imperium.

 

It’s not only the basic but most fundamental training in warfare, for the kind of special forces the Marines are.

It makes total sense that this would be marining 101 for Scouts, after all the physical training.

 

I mean, in the lore, Marines are not armored turrets. The main reason why they do these heroics is because the situation when they do them both allow and call for it.

 

They are good fighters, but also they don’t foolishly run in losing battles.

Modern special forces are not only equipped with better tools, but the main difference is that they each are trained for tactical thinking and knowing which engagements to take and which engagements to avoid.

 

All of this learnt in the Scout training for the Marines.

[Ishagu]

But you train for decades in the art of stealth using specific armour, then ditch it for a heavy, loud battle plate and stealth goes out the window. Not really the best use of resources.

 

These Vanguard look like dedicated specialists in full dedicated armour and unique wargear. Big improvement.

[TheTrans]

It’s not about specializing it’s about basic special force training.

 

Marines are not Imperial Knights, they are special forces.

Positioning, the ability to survive, identify and engage in winning battle is what make Marines’ training superior in the Imperium.

 

It’s not only the basic but most fundamental training in warfare, for the kind of special forces the Marines are.

It makes total sense that this would be marining 101 for Scouts, after all the physical training.

 

I mean, in the lore, Marines are not armored turrets. The main reason why they do these heroics is because the situation when they do them both allow and call for it.

 

They are good fighters, but also they don’t foolishly run in losing battles.

Modern special forces are not only equipped with better tools, but the main difference is that they each are trained for tactical thinking and knowing which engagements to take and which engagements to avoid.

 

All of this learnt in the Scout training for the Marines.

That checks out mate.

 

Marines aren't trained to just get shot. Sticking to cover and avoiding being killed is a much better start than just 'I have faith in my armour'.

 

And teaching people that they are vulnerable is much easier when they are in a flak jacket than walking tank armour. 

 

I feel the scout training phase is almost 'basic' traning at this point. Their BS used to represent they are still training, so are the equivalent of fully trained guardsman. Think of them as Greycrow said, they are special forces dudes.. just a bit bigger and tougher than the current stuff we've got, they go through all the 'basic' infantry training, scouting, field craft etc in hopefully lower risk engagements as they are yet not fully armoured.

 

Then when they can be slapped into their armour off into the devastator companies. Where they learn to be part of generally larger engagements and fire in support of their squad/company mates. They still contribute well toward the battle, are generally first set up, last to tear down, but aren't directly in the firing line, allowing a little wiggle room for more on the job training.

 

Next off to Assault Companies. Certainly highly dangerous, but at the same time I feel shorter time on the battle field. Either used as a coup de grace or a spear head, which the tacticals will then exploit and lock down the area of the battle. This trains them in the joys of CC during a live battle, but generally will always be supported.

Finally Tactical Training. This is when they are sort of expected to be self sufficient in battle and be the main line infantry of the fight. They are the ones that protect the devastators, they are the ones that exploit breaks in enemy lines made by the assault squads, these are the guys that can do everything needed as they have learnt each part one step at a time.

 

So the Tactical marine has learnt to shoot well in the devastators (by only concentrating on that), they then learned to fight well, knowing they where supported in assaults. Now they have been in the shoes of both other types, know the strengths and weaknesses of their supporting elements, and as tacticals can form a good image of the battle field by them selves, and act accordingly.

 

There is certainly a bit of wandwavium in there..but by and large with essentially indoctrinated giant children soldiers.. it is definitely well within the realms of plausibility. 

 

But you train for decades in the art of stealth using specific armour, then ditch it for a heavy, loud battle plate and stealth goes out the window. Not really the best use of resources.

 

These Vanguard look like dedicated specialists in full dedicated armour and unique wargear. Big improvement.

 

But they've learnt where to walk and not walk, how to stay hidden. All these things should now be second nature, when it was life or death situations.

 

With armour they still have all these skills and 'awareness' (avoiding being shot etc) but just have increased endurance, survivability and up to date battlefield intelligence. 

[Ishagu]

There's nothing basic about training to be a stealthy sniper unit. After they you're given a jet pack, before dropping it for a role where you stay still and shoot from a distance with heavy weapons, or is the other way round?

 

After those things they take the jump pack away, most of thr fancy guns and hand you a Bolter?

 

The newer lore actually makes more sense in some ways over the old.

[Closet Skeleton]

Spartans trained their children in guerilla warfare before drilling them for the phalanx latter on. Giving novices specific tasks that fully trained members of a fighting force don't do is very common.

 

Training elite special forces and then retraining them for a different role is a waste of resources but Space Marine Scout companies aren't elite special forces, they're trainees with specialized duties that fully developed space marines aren't suited for.

 

They aren't commandos or saboteurs, they're Scouts. You know the same word used for the paramilitary group recreational activity for children.

[Ishagu]

Or you could train the unit for a specific role, equip it as such and make it the very best at that job.

 

Of course every marine should know basic combat, weapons, tactics, etc. But to learn to fly around with a jet pack until you master it and then never use it again?

[GreyCrow]

But you train for decades in the art of stealth using specific armour, then ditch it for a heavy, loud battle plate and stealth goes out the window. Not really the best use of resources.

 

These Vanguard look like dedicated specialists in full dedicated armour and unique wargear. Big improvement.

But Scouts aren’t only stealth specialists. Stealth is not a way of war, it’s a tactical tool for survival.

 

Tanks these days are stealthy, submarines are stealthy. It’s not about gear, it’s where you are with the enemy.

 

I would like lore materials to support evidence that Power armourbis loud and cumbersome. Medieval Knights armory was actually pretty agile even if heavy. Knights could sommersault and run without much trouble.

 

Granted, Marines won’t sneak up to enemies for a throat stab, but they don’t need to. Even a loud armor canon be heard from 50m+ in a theater of war.

They don’t have a siren alerting to their presence either. They can place shots on enemies at Marksman range.

 

Stealth is not only about sound, it’s about viability, distance and attention too.

If you stand still behind a wall, and nobody knows you’re here, they won’t get alerted until you make your presence known by opening fire.

 

I understand it’s intellectualy appealing to have everything fit in a snuggy system of synergetic and non cannibalzing roles.

It’s certainly not how warfare works and definitely not how Marines work either.

 

Marines know that their armor is a last layer of protection against the enemy. Not a crutch to replace any kind of tactical thinking, including avoiding taking fire completely.

Quite the opposite actually, if they can apply superior training and superior skills to find winning engagements, then this further increases the value of their armor in the rare case they allow the enemy to hit them.

 

Read Know No Fear, 2 Ultramarines in power armor manage to lay down a winning ambush against Word Bearer forces including a Terminator.

And it takes quite a bit of time before they realize that there is an Ultramarine in fire support position even though he is blasting at them with his boltgun.

[TheTrans]

There's nothing basic about training to be a stealthy sniper unit. After they you're given a jet pack, before dropping it for a role where you stay still and shoot from a distance with heavy weapons, or is the other way round?

 

After those things they take the jump pack away, most of thr fancy guns and hand you a Bolter?

 

The newer lore actually makes more sense in some ways over the old.

Did you see the 'basic' ? Basic by marine standards mate. Scouts are generally picked from the best lot of children they can find. Factor in there would of been a fair whack of training and what not prior to them ever being deployed. A scout would be a competent solider by any normal armies standard.

 

You aren't given a jet pack straight away, you're given power armour, so you can learn the ups and downs of that in a relatively safer enviornment, being in a devastator unit. So you strat trainign with your big boy kit, then when you've locked that away and you know how to not fall over in power armour etc you're given your jump pack to learn how to go punch people in the face.

 

Also pretty sure assault marines some times don't use jump  packs, that is correct yes?

 

Yes, you are line infantry at that point and are there to hold the whole battle together. Think about modern armies. The mortar platoon don't win the battle, the sniper can't hold ground, (not that we use close combat troops nowadays) but the assault troops need mid range cover and someone to hold onto the position they've taken.. and that comes down to the 'normal' infantry.

 

The newer lore involves 'everything the Big E did but better so we can sell stuff' isn't particularly great mate... 

[GreyCrow]

Good points Trans !

 

Besides ‘line’ infantry isn’t a battle line. Even in Napoleonic Wars, rifle armed units would still take cover and not just stand in the middle of ground like morons.

 

In in age of 40k, I’m sure that Marines use the terrain to their advantage because they surely know they don’t have the armor to replace a FREAKING BUILDING standing between you and the threat.

[Ishagu]

If you guys like that bit of lore that's absolutely fine.

I just find it lacks logic, wastes resources, time and isn't very practical.

 

It's cool that Astartes have mastered all these things, but there's no point to them as the units don't reflect that, the rules don't reflect that and the lore doesn't really justify it.

[TheTrans]

If you guys like that bit of lore that's absolutely fine.

I just find it lacks logic, wastes resources, time and isn't very practical.

 

It's cool that Astartes have mastered all these things, but there's no point to them as the units don't reflect that, the rules don't reflect that and the lore doesn't really justify it.

One of those subjective things ey mate?

 

If anything I feel we've shown a fair bit of logic, with not many counter arguments. Also if anything, it is saving resources... Instead of getting priceless Power Armour destroyed as some dude walks into an open window and cops a lascannon to the face, the scout phase, for relatively low material cost, weeds out the red shirts pretty quickly without losing precious power armour. 

 

Rules never reflect the fluff (especially in 8th!)....lets not go down that rabbit hole. 

[GreyCrow]

If you guys like that bit of lore that's absolutely fine.

I just find it lacks logic, wastes resources, time and isn't very practical.

 

It's cool that Astartes have mastered all these things, but there's no point to them as the units don't reflect that, the rules don't reflect that and the lore doesn't really justify it.

I totally get your point! I don’t and will never dispute the value of specialization.

And you are 100% right that rules don’t reflect a lot of stuff.

 

The thing is : tactics isn’t reflected by rules (and partially by lore only). It’s actually the job of the commander.

It would be actually fantastic for us to have proper lore based tactics. It will help understanding the design of units, rather than marketing BS.

 

Example : Assault Marines ‘lore’ in the Codex is absolutely wrong versus the ruleset.

Marines tactics is absolutely wrong with the lore too. The basic Marines would need 2+/4++ base just to accomplish the feats that are described in the lore. Terminators would need a refillable save too.

 

When it comes to actual battlefield moves, yes, we have to play Marines stealthily, just to minimize incoming shots and survive more.

Like any other units, because that’s the basic rule of the universe and the economical model.

 

Scouts are more adept due to deployment options, but Tactical Marines mastered that skill too.

 

—-

 

I digress though, let’s get back to Vanguards !

 

To add to my post of yesterday : I actually don’t mind them. I might buy some if the Eliminators have rules that are interesting to me.

 

I actually love the idea of GW to get some themed variations of our main armies. It’ll make the army building easier for less savvy players, and we’re getting expansions.

 

This specific iteration, at least what I’ve seen so far, does not appeal to me. I’m very happy that some players are excited about it however !

[CommanderDio]

I’m definitely excited for these Vanguard models, but I’m wondering what will be in Shadowspear. I’m also wondering if there will be more new models that won’t be in the box.

 

My reason for thinking this is: Black Legion is being teased heavily with a lot of different possible models. (Sorcerer, new Possessed, new varieties of regular CSM, Spider Tank, new Obliterators, and (maybe) new Terminators?)

 

I’m wondering if GW will actually put all of those models into one box just for Black Legion (assuming new Terminators are what we’re teased recently). If not, are they planning a larger release for both Black Legion and the Primaris Vanguard?

[redmapa]

Yeah the Chaos release is gonna be huge and personally I hope the Primaris release is at least as big as the first wave. As for the contents of Shadowspear then it will be similar to Tooth&Claw and Forgebane so about 10-15 infantry per side, one Character and a couple of big things so it could look like

 

5-10 CSM

3 Possessed

Obliterator(s)

Sorcerer

 

vs

 

5-10 Chem Reivers 

Eliminators

Drop Devastator(s)

Librarian

 

From the Primaris side we are still missing the Reiver HQs and possibly one or two kits that will probably not be in the box just as the CSM is bigger than just the contents of the box.

[Closet Skeleton]

Or you could train the unit for a specific role, equip it as such and make it the very best at that job.

 

Of course every marine should know basic combat, weapons, tactics, etc. But to learn to fly around with a jet pack until you master it and then never use it again?

 

That's a very unneccesary or.

 

Having elite specialist commando units doesn't mean you shouldn't put your trainees who can't use power armour yet to good use. In 3rd and 4th ed Space Marines had infiltrating veterans, it was the introduction of Sternguard/Vanguard in 5th ed that changed that.

 

I'm not saying Vanguard don't make sense and won't be cool, just that Scouts make some sense.

 

Assault marines who get promoted to tactical marines (also a 5th ed invention) don't never get to use their jump pack skills because they can get promoted again to vanguard veterans. Or used as a pool to draw assault marines from if massed assault marines are called for.

 

 

Besides ‘line’ infantry isn’t a battle line. Even in Napoleonic Wars, rifle armed units would still take cover and not just stand in the middle of ground like morons.

 

 

Line infantry meant they literally stood in lines, Napoleonic era Riflemen were skirmishers not line infantry. Standing in the middle of the ground didn't make you a moron any more than anyone who signs up for combat duty because accurate firearms were rare.

 

I’m wondering if GW will actually put all of those models into one box just for Black Legion (assuming new Terminators are what we’re teased recently). If not, are they planning a larger release for both Black Legion and the Primaris Vanguard?

 

I expect Primaris to have a few things not in Shadowspear. Abaddon won't be in Shadowspear and I'm expecting him to be the only actually exclusive Black Legion model in the release so don't think this is really a 'Black legion release' anymore than the Vanguard are an Ultramarines release or Wake the Dead was a Saimhain box.

[Brother Casman]

So, today we have another tidbit on the Vanguard Space Marines. The article lists Captain Acheran as being from the Ultramarines Second Company and also describes the Vanguard as elite reconnaissance troops.

 

Of course, I now have several questions about the Vanguard and the Captain...

- is Captain Acheran the current Captain of the Ultramarines 2nd Company? (I'd check the codex, but it's at home; maybe someone here has their copy at hand?)

- the Ultramarines 2nd Company is a standard Battle Company, so far as I know. Do you think the presence of the Vanguard are a reconfiguration of the company, or are these troopers just seconded to the "regular" troopers? Did the 2nd Company change to be a "Vanguard" company? (Which could be cool, I'll admit)

 

I'm wondering if this represents an update to the Codex Astartes. We'd have the elite Veteran 1st company, the recon Vanguard 2nd company, the standard battle companies (3-5), etc. Alternatively, the Vanguard company could take the place of the Scout 10th Company in Primaris Chapters, I suppose, but that doesn't mesh with the fact that these Ultramarines are apparently connected to the 2nd company.

 

I know it's all speculation at this point, but hopefully we can have an interesting discussion! So, thoughts?

[Frostglaive]

I think it really depends on just how much Guilliman revised the Codex Astartes. Did he lift the restriction of 1,000 marines per chapter or no? If not, then I would assume the Ultramarines 2nd Company is either completely Vanguard Primaris, or maybe just a demi-company of them are. Which would be kind of odd, since a demi-company is led by a lieutenant, not a captain. I'd assume the 2nd either was completely overhauled to become Vanguard, or the 1,000 cap per Marine Chapter got lifted and the 2nd is now much larger than before.

[Brother Casman]

So far as I know, the restriction on numbers is still in place. I'd be okay with a modest increase in size for a Chapter. It'd make it easier to integrate all these new things into my own dudes.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I have to wonder, are they killing him off to give the post back to Sicarus or something? (And that's a yes to your questions Brother Casman. Since he's (well was) wearing gravis armor, we can supposedly infer he's the captain in the Dark Imperium box, since that's painted up as the 2nd company officially.)

 

Regardless, I don't think the old chapter company structuring is gonna be all that relevant for too much longer, even in the codex the 2nd company is shown to have in excess of 10 squads with the additional primaris units...

 

At any rate, the general feel I get from the vanguard  as described in the article is they seem to be a more adhoc formation (could just be my Templar upbringing on that one though) handpicked for a suicide mission, all drawn from the 2nd company.

[Robbienw]

No need to give the 2nd back to Sicarius as he is commander of the Victorix guard, just promoted somebody else instead.

[Ishagu]

It has been outright stated that the codex is being updated and re-written so this new sub company being introduced into the greater 2nd company could be some new change coming in for the future.

 

As for the Captain of the 2nd - this new chap could be Cato Sicarius' replacement. I don't know where that leaves the Captain from the Dark Imperium set. Maybe he has been sent to the 1st company following Agemman's promotion to sector commander.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Would it not be possible that the Vanguard is not a permanent standing force? Perhaps every company can be outfitted for Vanguard duties as required and rotated out of the line of battle companies. It sounds like it would have a high attrition rate, so would be hard to sustain.

 

For example, at the moment near Vigilus, the second company has arrived and upon assessing the situation and their numbers they decided to deploy their Vanguard tactics and gear, instead of their standard rig. Perhaps because by deploying guerilla style tactics they can do more damage with less troops?

[Robbienw]

It has been outright stated that the codex is being updated and re-written so this new sub company being introduced into the greater 2nd company could be some new change coming in for the future.

 

As for the Captain of the 2nd - this new chap could be Cato Sicarius' replacement. I don't know where that leaves the Captain from the Dark Imperium set. Maybe he has been sent to the 1st company following Agemman's promotion to sector commander.

He is named in the SM codex as Sicarius’ replacement already. He is the same chap as in the dark imperium set.

[Captain Idaho]

The more I think about it the more I think Codex Space Marines can't be that far away, or at least a Codex Vanguard style book. There are too many holes in the organisation of the Codex Astartes and Chapters otherwise. I mean, there are 100 Marines in a Company and that strength is now split into covert operations as well as the main reason Space Marines exist?

 

Needs much clarification. As an Ultramarines player I'm quite uncomfortable not knowing this stuff! :d