Vanguard Primaris Marines - Intro Thread

[Halandaar]

And really, when was the last time you saw someone field Sniper Scouts anyway? If people take Scouts at all they are usually using them as forward-deploying Tactical-lite squads.

[Lemondish]

And really, when was the last time you saw someone field Sniper Scouts anyway? If people take Scouts at all they are usually using them as forward-deploying Tactical-lite squads.

When was the last time? Oh you sweet summer child ;)

 

This past weekend at the LVO - 8th placed Astartes list.

 

With GMan, sniper scouts are money. Great for mortal wound fishing. They're an amazing, highly competitive choice under those circumstances and it's a real surprise they aren't played more often.

[Halandaar]

and it's a real surprise they aren't played more often.

 

So short, less condescending version; not very often at all outside a niche tournament list?

 

As expected.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I took squads in the last two games I played. They're great for camping on a back, or in one case really tall, objective and harassing characters.

[Ishagu]

I no longer run Scouts in general beyond a niche list.

 

With turn 1 reserves no longer being a thing they aren't quite as valuable in my personal experience and opinion.

 

The new Snipers, I hope their guns have some really funky ammo. If they pack a punch I'll invest in lots, I love their look so much.

[TheOneTrueZon]

Which chapters currently have the best Tactics / Stratagems for snipers & stealth?

 

The Vigilus book has some tasty Stratagems for bolt rifles, but I'm curious if the weapon loadout for the vanguard will have the bolter keyword so the new Beta rules can apply to it. "Exitus" pattern Bolt Rifle?

 

So we have mention of exotic ammo. I'd love to see high-explosive melta rounds, instead of mortal wounds on 6's it does automatic damage to surrounding units.

[Lemondish]

 

 

and it's a real surprise they aren't played more often.

So short, less condescending version; not very often at all outside a niche tournament list?

 

As expected.

I apologise if you thought that was condescending - it was meant more as a playful comment detailing my surprise that folks haven't jumped all over it given how fun the synergy is. It's kind of counter what you'd normally think snipers would be best used for thematically, and I think that's pretty neat and exciting. It surprises me that folks aren't eager to make use of it given how cool sniper rifles are combined with how competitive a pick it is.

 

As an aside, and a friendly reminder, perhaps try and assume everyone is sharing in good faith rather than jumping to conclusions? It would avoid tainting the discussion in the future. It's hard to ascribe motivation to text after all.

 

Which chapters currently have the best Tactics / Stratagems for snipers & stealth?

 

The Vigilus book has some tasty Stratagems for bolt rifles, but I'm curious if the weapon loadout for the vanguard will have the bolter keyword so the new Beta rules can apply to it. "Exitus" pattern Bolt Rifle?

 

So we have mention of exotic ammo. I'd love to see high-explosive melta rounds, instead of mortal wounds on 6's it does automatic damage to surrounding units.

For the current snipers, I'd say Ultramarines due to GMan are the most effective. But tactics wise? Raven Guard make them pretty difficult to remove, Sallies give you an extra reroll to hit/wound which is great, and Imperial Fists give it a great bonus against units trying to use cover.

 

Crimson Fists can make use of the MW fishing easily against Orks thanks their strats, but are less valuable otherwise.

 

Not quite sure these will apply with Bolter Discipline - sniper rifles tend to be heavy.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Some of the art shows a new Reiver type unit with MKVII style helmet that has the Troop symbol on the shoulder pad so I think we'll be getting new troops.

 

The Librarian is one of the best posed models and I love it. That bring said, I much prefer the armour style of the regular Primaris Librarian. This guy is, wearing full leather and a tunic over his armour.

I've been wondering if we are going to see an updated reiver kit. Their helmets have been a pretty common complaint since day one so adding a sprue with some new helmets and a couple of new options would make sense. Add in a condition that allows people to take them as troops, and they would make alot of sense.

[Panzer]

 

Some of the art shows a new Reiver type unit with MKVII style helmet that has the Troop symbol on the shoulder pad so I think we'll be getting new troops.

 

The Librarian is one of the best posed models and I love it. That bring said, I much prefer the armour style of the regular Primaris Librarian. This guy is, wearing full leather and a tunic over his armour.

I've been wondering if we are going to see an updated reiver kit. Their helmets have been a pretty common complaint since day one so adding a sprue with some new helmets and a couple of new options would make sense. Add in a condition that allows people to take them as troops, and they would make alot of sense.

 

 

Very unlikely. It would invalidate all the boxes they've got out there in various shops and warehouses and they'd need new moulds for it as well which definitely didn't pay for themselves yet. Also not everyone dislikes the helmets. I see many Reiver getting build using the skullmask helmets.

Likewise I don't see them becoming Troops as they are pretty much just Intercessors++ for the most part ... too much to have them as another Troop option but not enough to be a good Elite option.

[Ishagu]

I love the helmets. I don't get the problem to be honest, skulls are everywhere in the Imperium.

[Triszin]

I love the helmets. I don't get the problem to be honest, skulls are everywhere in the Imperium.

The issue is, it goes against the design aesthetics, save a few chapters.

 

If they were needed to have skull helmets I much would have prefered a variation of xenos and human skull helmets.

to show that these people are not just terrors to humans, but to the other species of the galaxy also.

[Marshal Reinhard]

The problem I have with them is that wasn't the skull helm of symbolic significance to chaplains? Kinda ruins that aspect, if there's an entire troop typ running around with them

[Marshal Rohr]

For real. Such an awful choice.

[Dracos]

Chaplains are a pretty sad unit in a number of ways. I don't like the Reiver skull helm myslef and would rather have a Intercessor helmet or even helmet less instead. While I love the Primaris Chaplain model I own, and honestly all the Chaplain models look cool, the fluff (and usually the rules) make me not want to include them in my army. I view their very existence to be heretical. They are one shade off of Wordbearers in my mind, preaching a religious fervor that would have appalled the Emperor. I'm surprised BobbyG isn't more disgusted by the existence of the Ecclesiarchy. The Reivers skull helm at least is based on the Emperor "science" as a tool of psychology.

 

These new Reiver helms also are a call back to a design I wasn't a fan. Never liked the tiny mouth grill. So while I for one like the much maligned Reiver armor, I'll be replacing the helmets regardless of which version the model comes with. I can be as big a snowflake as anyone but the ex-servicemen in me likes as much uniformity in design and equipment as possible in my army. I suppose it's why I don't think spam is a bad thing.

 

To some it's boring, to me it's more "realistic" .... which I understand isn't for everyone, but having options is the one of the great thing Marines have (even in the Primaris line, compared to a lot of the other armies. I know there is a default for us to bemoan what we don't have but really we should celebrate the diversity we do have more often ... in my opinion.

[Lemondish]

 

I love the helmets. I don't get the problem to be honest, skulls are everywhere in the Imperium.

The issue is, it goes against the design aesthetics, save a few chapters.

 

If they were needed to have skull helmets I much would have prefered a variation of xenos and human skull helmets.

to show that these people are not just terrors to humans, but to the other species of the galaxy also.

 

 

I never saw the Reiver masks as a terror symbol the way we might use that imagery today to unnerve human adversaries (think the Punisher as a somewhat exaggerated example). I think you're absolutely right when you imply that our meaning attributed to the skull - that being a symbol of death and mortality - wouldn't mean much at all to xenos. But I didn't ascribe that meaning to it to being with because the skull means something different to the humans of the 41st millenium. In short, I didn't see a link between what we think of that symbol today and what they might think of it in the setting.

 

I always thought the frequent use of a skull as a symbol across the Imperium was because it's the face of the Emperor. In this way I took the Reiver skull motif to be a tool to send a very personal message - the Emperor sends his regards as the Reiver stabs you in the neck. 

 

As far as the actual model looks - I think they look amazing with the skull helmet, but I totally see where people are coming from vis a vis Chaplains. 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I know you say that skulls may not symbolise death to all xenos species, but isn't the skull a universal symbol within the 40k universe because of the Nightbringer? He was 'imprinted' across every species, bar Orks (which is linked to why they don't fear death.)

 

Sorry, bit off topic

[Sete]

The problem I have with them is that wasn't the skull helm of symbolic significance to chaplains? Kinda ruins that aspect, if there's an entire troop typ running around with them

The face says death , the legs say my dad's a lawyer.

[THUNDERFISTS]

I know you say that skulls may not symbolise death to all xenos species, but isn't the skull a universal symbol within the 40k universe because of the Nightbringer? He was 'imprinted' across every species, bar Orks (which is linked to why they don't fear death.)

 

Sorry, bit off topic

 

The Skull is the symbol of the God Emperor Enthroned, the skeletal remains of He who is risen. That's why skulls are so rife, and a Chaplain's helm is the literal Face of the Emperor. 

The Nightbringer imprinted the Reaper as a personification of Death, not just a leering skull. Although honestly it's probably a bit of both, not just a black/white issue. 

 

 

Reivers with skull masks look silly, and I do agree that schtick should stay with Chaplains. That's why I made my last Reivers with regular Intercessors heads, and will paint a skull over the top of it to be a r33l sc4ry k1d

[Panzer]

 

I know you say that skulls may not symbolise death to all xenos species, but isn't the skull a universal symbol within the 40k universe because of the Nightbringer? He was 'imprinted' across every species, bar Orks (which is linked to why they don't fear death.)

 

Sorry, bit off topic

 

The Skull is the symbol of the God Emperor Enthroned, the skeletal remains of He who is risen. That's why skulls are so rife, and a Chaplain's helm is the literal Face of the Emperor. 

The Nightbringer imprinted the Reaper as a personification of Death, not just a leering skull. Although honestly it's probably a bit of both, not just a black/white issue. 

 

 

 

That's true for humans of the Imperium, but not for Xenos. For Xenos it's much more likely it means the same thing it does for us irl.

[Ishagu]

Erm, Eldar would recognise the skill for sure.

 

Tau would find it scary too.

 

All of the human factions would find it intimidating.

 

I think it's justified itself.

[Sete]

Erm, Eldar would recognise the skill for sure.

 

Tau would find it scary too.

 

All of the human factions would find it intimidating.

 

I think it's justified itself.

Hopefully new reiver troops will have plenty of the half breather mask in sprue.

It's an awesome look that I shall use for Neophytes when and if we get primaris crusader squads.

 

Meatshi.. I mean neophytes with 3+ and 2 wounds. That's the dream.

[Spaced Hulk]

I always thought the frequent use of a skull as a symbol across the Imperium was because it's the face of the Emperor. In this way I took the Reiver skull motif to be a tool to send a very personal message - the Emperor sends his regards as the Reiver stabs you in the neck. 

 

As far as the actual model looks - I think they look amazing with the skull helmet, but I totally see where people are coming from vis a vis Chaplains.

 

Jes Goodwin confirmed this in his vox cast interview. I think he said it was a bit of a retrospective lore addition, eg: they were sculpting skulls on everything anyway, and then afterwards thought "this would be a cool reason why".

 

As far as Chaplains are concerned, the skull mask is only one of their defining features, and probably not the most important one either. Their wargear (eg": crozius arcanum & rosarius) seems far more ubiquitous to me, as does their black armour (which I believe represents that they serve the Emperor directly, or that they are Emperor's representatives within the chapter, or something like that anyway ☺). Anyway, there have been Chaplain models made without a skull helm, or with a highly stylised one at least, but their armour has always been black and they've always had a crozius and rosarius as well.

 

I personally really like the Reiver heads, but they look much better when the skull is painted in metallic steel/silver rather than in white or bone.

[Panzer]

 

As far as Chaplains are concerned, the skull mask is only one of their defining features, and probably not the most important one either. Their wargear (eg": crozius arcanum & rosarius) seems far more ubiquitous to me, as does their black armour (which I believe represents that they serve the Emperor directly, or that they are Emperor's representatives within the chapter, or something like that anyway ☺). Anyway, there have been Chaplain models made without a skull helm, or with a highly stylised one at least, but their armour has always been black and they've always had a crozius and rosarius as well.

 

Yes and no. The Skullhelmet is one of if not the most important part of their gear. It represents the Emperor because they represent the Emperor. That's also why they never take off their helmet while others are around once they become Chaplain (scenarios where the helmet gets damaged etc not counting obviously). At least that's the current lore for them.

 

 

That being said while I see the issue with taking part of the iconic look of Chaplains and put it on another unit, I don't really see an in-universe reason why it shouldn't be done as long as they don't walk around acting as if they were Chaplains.

[Blindhamster]

 

 

As far as Chaplains are concerned, the skull mask is only one of their defining features, and probably not the most important one either. Their wargear (eg": crozius arcanum & rosarius) seems far more ubiquitous to me, as does their black armour (which I believe represents that they serve the Emperor directly, or that they are Emperor's representatives within the chapter, or something like that anyway ☺). Anyway, there have been Chaplain models made without a skull helm, or with a highly stylised one at least, but their armour has always been black and they've always had a crozius and rosarius as well.

 

 

Yes and no. The Skullhelmet is one of if not the most important part of their gear. It represents the Emperor because they represent the Emperor. That's also why they never take off their helmet while others are around once they become Chaplain (scenarios where the helmet gets damaged etc not counting obviously). At least that's the current lore for them.

 

 

That being said while I see the issue with taking part of the iconic look of Chaplains and put it on another unit, I don't really see an in-universe reason why it shouldn't be done as long as they don't walk around acting as if they were Chaplains.

Chaplain in blood of iax doesn't always wear his

[Panzer]

 

 

As far as Chaplains are concerned, the skull mask is only one of their defining features, and probably not the most important one either. Their wargear (eg": crozius arcanum & rosarius) seems far more ubiquitous to me, as does their black armour (which I believe represents that they serve the Emperor directly, or that they are Emperor's representatives within the chapter, or something like that anyway ☺). Anyway, there have been Chaplain models made without a skull helm, or with a highly stylised one at least, but their armour has always been black and they've always had a crozius and rosarius as well.

 

Yes and no. The Skullhelmet is one of if not the most important part of their gear. It represents the Emperor because they represent the Emperor. That's also why they never take off their helmet while others are around once they become Chaplain (scenarios where the helmet gets damaged etc not counting obviously). At least that's the current lore for them.

 

 

That being said while I see the issue with taking part of the iconic look of Chaplains and put it on another unit, I don't really see an in-universe reason why it shouldn't be done as long as they don't walk around acting as if they were Chaplains.

Chaplain in blood of iax doesn't always wear his

 

 

I admit I didn't listen to all of it since I kept falling asleep on the train. I guess there are always exceptions to the rule and some Chaplains who take it less serious than others. ^^