Vanguard Primaris Marines - Intro Thread

[GreyCrow]

It would be fantastic to get a massive codex update!

Beta Bolter rules + CSM update + Shadowspear would be a fantastic time for an update for the core army.

 

Just looking at the different armies here and there, along with feedback, I have a feeling that single codex, especially old ones like Marines, are just not standing on their own. Soup is where it’s at it seems.

[Helias_Tancred]

Not a fan of the models or the concept behind "Vanguard" primaris marines.

[Ishagu]

Not a fan of the models or the concept behind "Vanguard" primaris marines.

It's the same concept as Scouts, just expanded?

[Guest]

I was a big fan of them except there just is something that feels not right about them. IDK what it is I just can't shake the feeling that either this isn't the final design (ie inceptors coming out later with plasma options) or that the stats aren't final (ie this was made before last chapter approved).

 

I am sad still no melee Primaris, I intend to go full Primaris but it isn't possible until that last leap is made possible by GW.

[Captain Idaho]

 

Not a fan of the models or the concept behind "Vanguard" primaris marines.

It's the same concept as Scouts, just expanded?

Actually I think the issue for many is Marines are walking tanks designed to blitz enemies and as they are few in number, siphoning off battle brothers from a Company for covert operations seems like a waste of resources, especially when Scouts are performing that role.

 

What GW are doing is trying to tap into the excitement of 30K with new reimagined units into 40K. They need to change the fluff for that to work!

[blackbabyjesus]

I think really people need to reassess their view of what marines are now. Previously they were the super elite that were used in very small numbers to cut the head off armies/rebellions/etc. This was necessary because there were so few of them and so few peer adversaries for them. Obviously there were exceptions where marines were fielded in large formations (Armageddon, Black Crusades, Hive Fleets, etc) but for the most part they were a scalpel not a hammer.

 

Guilliman has come back and changed that, Space Marines are now the front line unit Vs Abaddon's black legion and all the other stuff. The Indomitus crusade is the new great crusade (albeit smaller in scale) and army sizes and compositions need to change to match.

[Panzer]

 

 

Not a fan of the models or the concept behind "Vanguard" primaris marines.

It's the same concept as Scouts, just expanded?

Actually I think the issue for many is Marines are walking tanks designed to blitz enemies and as they are few in number, siphoning off battle brothers from a Company for covert operations seems like a waste of resources, especially when Scouts are performing that role.

 

What GW are doing is trying to tap into the excitement of 30K with new reimagined units into 40K. They need to change the fluff for that to work!

 

 

That's because many just see the really huge battles. Often it's just one or two squads, hell of even just a half-squad, that gets send on a planet to deal with a problem. ^^

[Captain Idaho]

I'm pretty sure that's the job of the Inquisition, Tempestus Scions and Assassins rather than Adeptus Astartes. Hell, even Space Marines Scouts.

 

It's not that it can't make sense in new fluff, it's that we actually need the new fluff filled out so it makes sense. If Space Marines Chapters are changing in their M.O. and/ir they're getting larger, then why aren't we actually hearing about it? The sooner we're explained to about this the better.

[Panzer]

Nah, it's just that in the fluff Marines are supposed to be capable enough to deal with problems while sending only a relatively small number of guys which lets them deal with several problems at the same time. Scions and Assassins do the same to some degree but that's just how the Imperium of Man is. Several different military organizations who do many things and ultimately create a lot of redundancy.

[Captain Idaho]

Anyway...

 

The rules for those Suppressors seem like they'd assist the assault force of Classic Marines more than Primaris. I can imagine a couple squads of Vanguard with jump packs really benefiting from removal of Overwatch...

[Panzer]

Yeah the Surpressors seem like the most useful of the bunch. I don't expect them to survive very long though so their M12 and smoke grenate are of rather limited use imo but their Surpressing fire could be great for Vanguard Veterans. Unfortunately it only works against Infantry and Bikes though as it's rather unlikely that you kill a bigger model with them to trigger the rule and against something like the T'au castle it doesn't help at all as their For the Greater Good rule doesn't care whether the charged unit can do overwatch or not.

[Matt_149]

I guess it will depend on points and unit size. Just seems weird that you can get a deepstriking unit with a 48" range weapon. As they are heavy support they will be competing with hellblasters. Be interesting to see in the next few days what comes of it.

[Marshal Reinhard]

As they are heavy support they will be competing with hellblasters.

As will Eliminators, if the symbol on the sergeants knee is to be trusted

[Lemondish]

I guess it will depend on points and unit size. Just seems weird that you can get a deepstriking unit with a 48" range weapon. As they are heavy support they will be competing with hellblasters. Be interesting to see in the next few days what comes of it.

Competing with isn't the right word to use here. If you're running all Primaris, you weren't going to fill a brigade or spearhead with triple Hellblasters often - that's such a hefty point sink.

 

Edit: looks like they won't compete at all since they're fast attack

[Tamiel]

So I was looking at the infiltrators, and they seem like they are designed to hold objectives more-so than intercessors. In comparing them with intercessors, I feel that they do less offensively due to lower range and lack of -1 AP, but at least they auto wound on hit rolls of 6s. But survivability wise, these infiltrators seem to be pretty suited. Smoke grenades makes your unit get -1 to getting shot at, once per battle. That's not bad at all, even though it means you can't shoot either for that turn. A lot of times, holding an objective is more important than shooting with your bolters, and these infiltrators are basically carrying bolters. Then you have the Omnic Scramblers ability, making enemy units deepstrike at 12" instead of 9". This will be a huge boon against orks using Da Jump, and I would imagine against genestealers and some other armies as well. And on top of all that, Infiltrators get their own mini-apothecary in their squads.

 

While auto-wounding on hit rolls of 6 is nice, I don't think it is good enough to compare with having 30" shooting range and AP-1 that intercessors bring. However, compared to Intercessors, Infiltrators seem to have lots of tricks built around durability/safety. Infiltrators also have the concealed positions rule, so that's nothing to gloss over either. I think these guys are the more "objective focused" troops, wheras the intercessors are the more "shoot things" troops. I would imagine that one Infiltrator costs more points than an Intercessor.

I imagine I will still stick to intercessor blobs in most of my games, but I will definitely give these infiltrators a try. As for the other units, since we don't know the cost per model of the suppressors or eliminators, I can't really say much about them. It's also true that we don't know the cost for infiltrators, but they're so similar to Intercessors that I can't imagine them costing too much more than an intercessor. We also don't know the Obscuration Discipline for the librarian.

Edit: A HUGE point I forgot to mention is that, as far as I can tell based on the leaks, Infiltrator Sergeants cannot bring power weapons for melee. I know a lot of people think Space Marines aren't meant for melee, but an primaris sergeant has 3 attacks at STR 4, and if you equip that guy with a power fist, he becomes pretty damn good at wounding tanks. If you put that primaris sergeant into a squad of 10 intercessors, you can keep that power fist sergeant alive long enough for him to do his job. Now, considering all of this, we see from the leaks so far that Infiltrator sergeants have no access to power weapons. Maybe once the actual rules come out we'll see something that I'm not seeing now, but if it really is the case that you can't put power swords or power fists on these sergeants, that is a huge detriment for me.

[redmapa]

I do agree with you Tamiel but I have a totally opposite view of the Infiltrators, to me its the Intercessors that want to stay back and hold objectives, sure they may not have access to smoke grenades or an apothecary but their strength is in shooting and holding an objective while taking pot shots at the enemy fits them much better. To me Infiltrators want to be in the enemy's face and be an immediate threat from the deployment phase onwards, their guns are only S4 AP0 so putting them in combat is not a huge loss, their real power comes from being able to be deployed forward an being tougher to move out of a position which will allow them to take the brunt of whatever comes their way and then survive once they are locked in combat with their Apothecary healing the losses, they offer the same role as Reivers/Assault Marines did before  Deep Strike was limited and that is to get right into the enemy and either force them to fight these expendable squads and allow other more tasty elements to put the hurt on (Vanguard Vets for example) or ignore them and have the Infiltrators in your lines by turn 2 at the worst.

 

I know my Black Templars will love these guys and I can see Blood Angels also take them to cordon the enemy and secure landing zones or an advance.

[Helias_Tancred]

 

 

Not a fan of the models or the concept behind "Vanguard" primaris marines.

It's the same concept as Scouts, just expanded?

Actually I think the issue for many is Marines are walking tanks designed to blitz enemies and as they are few in number, siphoning off battle brothers from a Company for covert operations seems like a waste of resources, especially when Scouts are performing that role.

 

What GW are doing is trying to tap into the excitement of 30K with new reimagined units into 40K. They need to change the fluff for that to work!

 

 

That guy ^ ... read my mind!

[Gothical]

Not sure if my all-Primaris army would use the Infiltrators at all - not too sure about the models until I have seen them in more detail.

 

However, I can see a useful role in using them to grab objectives early. They are going to be surprisingly difficult to shift with their Helix Adept and Smoke Grenades, and the ability to be placed outside your deployment zone whilst reducing enemy DS is fantastic disruption. Front-line skirmishing or back-field objective holding whilst the Intercessors do the work of killing stuff seems like a sound plan to me. I am disappointed that you can only take the Helix Adept as part of a 10-man unit though as I would prefer MSU of these guys. I agree with Ishagu's post below that they are an outstanding unit, I just don't like the looks too much.

 

The Eliminators are a little less potent that I thought they would be, but very interesting fire support none the less. Good complement to Hellblasters at least! The -2 AP and D3 damage are going to be very handy for dealing with characters, whilst having an indirect-fire mode that effectively bypasses to-hit modifiers gives additional utility, be it whittling down stuff like Rangers or hitting Mortar Squads/characters hiding out of LOS (stack with a Vindicare to leave them nowhere to run!) Not too sure about the Hyperfrag ammo though - not the kind of unit you want firing at large units, but I suppose it is something that is better to have than not.

 

The Suppressors are interesting but perhaps of more use in a mixed force, given I dislike the look of Aggressors so other than G-man and Dreadnoughts (who don't really get bothered by Overwatch) I have little melee threat to take advantage of it. Still, given that you can split your shots in this edition a unit of Suppressors and a unit of Reivers can shut down a T'au castle (target 3 infantry units with the Suppressors, tag a Riptide/whatever with Reiver grenade, charge with Reivers or a more proper melee unit).

 

The only thing I don't like about this release is how many different Bolt Carbines there are, added on to the number of Bolt Rifles and it is all getting a bit ridiculous!

 

++Edit++

 

The Lieutenant looks absolutely stunning. Unsure about the Captain but the Librarian and Lieutenant are definitely going into my collection!

 

The Infiltrators look OK, I definitely prefer the look of Intercessors (especially the helmets) but a unit or two for tactical options is bearable. I do like the pistol-aiming models and the Sergeant, I think it might be the odd chunky look of the new carbines that are throwing me off (along with the helmets).

 

++Edit 2++

 

Updating some misunderstandings of the rules in my post.

[Ishagu]

As of now unless they cost too much they will be the best Astartes Troop unit hands down.

 

Remember they have a 2+ save in cover and grenades for a - 1 to hit.

[Exilyth]

Eliminators w/mortis ammo could be usefull to inflict morale on mortar HWTs without LoS.

 

 

Without knowing the point costs, I don't feel like speculating about the usefullness of the other units.

[Panzer]

Looking through the pictures, I noticed a few of the little dangling sword charms. I wonder if this is a vanguard honor of some sort, and if so, what it represents.

 

It's like the Marksman honour, but for the stabby guys.

[UnkyHamHam]

As of now unless they cost too much they will be the best Astartes Troop unit hands down.

 

Remember they have a 2+ save in cover and grenades for a - 1 to hit.

It's almost like people forget Raven Guard exists.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

As of now unless they cost too much they will be the best Astartes Troop unit hands down.

 

Remember they have a 2+ save in cover and grenades for a - 1 to hit.

It's almost like people forget Raven Guard exists.

 

 

That's what Shrike wants!

[Panzer]

 

As of now unless they cost too much they will be the best Astartes Troop unit hands down.

 

Remember they have a 2+ save in cover and grenades for a - 1 to hit.

It's almost like people forget Raven Guard exists.

 

 

Nah we aren't forgetting them. We always acknowledged that their trait and stratagem are good. The difference is that these guys Infiltration still works after the Big FAQ, doesn't cost CP and their -1 to hit applies at <12" as well (just for one turn though and they can't shoot that turn). :P

[Boldthreat]

Welp I was wrong. These guys are second company and not a new organization within the chapter or 10th company. I’d really like to see how a Primaris Chapter organizes because I have no clue. 2nd company is bloated and has everything. Everything seems so ad hoc and weird.