Vanguard Primaris Marines - Intro Thread

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

That said, I don't see something like Reivers (which I presume are the Close Support element of the Vanguard), appealing to someone devoted to the fluff of the Imperial Fists, or the Iron Hands. 

You'll forgive me for pursuing this to the point of risking being annoying or rude, but what's your basis for this? Your own subjective opinions? Because there are a wide range of such opinions out there. 

 

Not everyone who picks fists wants to play them as a turtling force that only strengthen their own fortifications.

 

Mind you, I'm not blind to the fact that there are obvious clear themes running throughout all chapters that have been fleshed out somewhat. But its a bit of jump to go from that to saying "X will not appeal to players of Y because its not playing to their theme of Z"

[Robbienw]

Yeah you could easily make clean classic marines, as long as you avoided some parts from veteran kits. Them all being covered in gothic bling is not accurate and a myth.

 

Plus some of the Primaris stuff has a lot of bits and plating all over it, they can be busy as well, just in a different way.

 

As for Jes Goodwin saying this is how he always wanted to do marines, if he actually did say that (not sure he really did), he is just telling you that to sell you models. Plus we don’t have to like his new work compared to his old work. Wether or not he thinks this is how space marines should always look is irrelevant to the customer who is able to form their own view and have critical opinions.

 

Plus if he really did want them originally to look this way, he could have done it a long time ago.

[Marshal Reinhard]

There's a bit more to it than that. Marines have followed conventions set by his earlier work for decades. Primaris is breaking away from some of that for the first time, like disregarding armor marks (making a new mk X one at that) making them a lot taller without upsizing the head or hands, changing the way legs attach to the torso.

 

He couldn't just change that willy nilly because there was a strong precedent for how they looked, what size they were etc. Their solution was to introduce a new type of marine, the Primaris marine, with new gear, which meant they could disregard earlier precedents.

 

And I believe he referred to them as "marine redesign"

[Skorp]

That librarian I love, way more than the first primaris librarian. The snipers are meh, I did 15 sniper scouts and dont plan to do more snipers soon. I have a gut feeling there is a vehicle of some sort they haven't revealed included in the box too.

 

Overall, I'm happy for anything primaris they release, doesnt mean I have to buy or use it, but expanding the range is good. I do get the feeling we'll never see another old marine release. I'm actually alright with that as long as they keep including rules for the old stuff too.

[Mmmmm Napalm]

 

 

That said, I don't see something like Reivers (which I presume are the Close Support element of the Vanguard), appealing to someone devoted to the fluff of the Imperial Fists, or the Iron Hands. 

You'll forgive me for pursuing this to the point of risking being annoying or rude, but what's your basis for this? Your own subjective opinions? Because there are a wide range of such opinions out there. 

 

Not everyone who picks fists wants to play them as a turtling force that only strengthen their own fortifications.

 

Mind you, I'm not blind to the fact that there are obvious clear themes running throughout all chapters that have been fleshed out somewhat. But its a bit of jump to go from that to saying "X will not appeal to players of Y because its not playing to their theme of Z"

 

I don't mean that any of it won't appeal to anyone who plays the more "straightforward" minded chapters, but the Vanguard appear to be a significant section of the Primaris roster, at least for the future, and I don't think that someone who is really interested in making a very fluffy army of Imperial FIsts, or Iron Hands, or in our case Templars, will be particularly interested in the Vanguard as a part of their army. To reiterate for the sake of clarity, I do not mean that nobody who plays said chapters will be interested in Vanguard. I simply don't think their theme meshes really well with some chapters; I assume that this will affect some people's level of interest in the Vanguard.

 

As I understand it, The Imperial Fists are a fairly straightforward chapter, tactically speaking. They place an emphasis on stoicism and endurance, and are proficient in sieges and urban conflicts. They aren't a chapter disposed towards flashiness or dramatic shows of prowess; they're professionals who are there to get the job done. Based on this, I don't personally see somebody who really likes the Imperial Fists being as interested in Reivers as someone who plays as Raven Guard or Raptors.

 

The basis for this is, of course, my opinion, but we are dealing with subjective matters of opinion surrounding visual design and the lore of a fictional setting. I didn't think that my assumption was particularly egregious or inappropriate.

 

I'm not annoyed, and you aren't coming off as particularly rude. My apologies if I come across that way myself.

[Marshal Rohr]

I don't mind reivers with the alternate helmets and carbines in the new art. It was the skull helms that were stupid.

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

I don't mean that any of it won't appeal to anyone who plays the more "straightforward" minded chapters, but the Vanguard appear to be a significant section of the Primaris roster, at least for the future, and I don't think that someone who is really interested in making a very fluffy army of Imperial FIsts, or Iron Hands, or in our case Templars, will be particularly interested in the Vanguard as a part of their army. To reiterate for the sake of clarity, I do not mean that nobody who plays said chapters will be interested in Vanguard. I simply don't think their theme meshes really well with some chapters; I assume that this will affect some people's level of interest in the Vanguard.

 

 

As I understand it, The Imperial Fists are a fairly straightforward chapter, tactically speaking. They place an emphasis on stoicism and endurance, and are proficient in sieges and urban conflicts. They aren't a chapter disposed towards flashiness or dramatic shows of prowess; they're professionals who are there to get the job done. Based on this, I don't personally see somebody who really likes the Imperial Fists being as interested in Reivers as someone who plays as Raven Guard or Raptors.

 

The basis for this is, of course, my opinion, but we are dealing with subjective matters of opinion surrounding visual design and the lore of a fictional setting. I didn't think that my assumption was particularly egregious or inappropriate.

 

I'm not annoyed, and you aren't coming off as particularly rude. My apologies if I come across that way myself.

 

 

Oh certainly you aren't. I'm just stating this to be on the safe side, because I'm latching onto this a bit forcefully

 

I get what you're saying. The chapters do have styles of warfare, they do have preferred tactics. But its also easy to fall into lazy thinking because of it. These chapters must not always fight this way, and in fact adopt a variety of different tactics.

 

I can see a no nonsense chapter using reivers to for instance plant a bomb on an enemy fortification, they don't neccessarily have to bring their biggest cannon to do it (poor example perhaps, since its not something you'd typically see in a game) Or even, why could they not employ diversionary forces outside their fortifications while under siege to disrupt the attackers, while the rest of the chapter "mans the walls". (I ended up talking about Fists regardless)

 

My point is, even the most narrowminded chapters, like the Templars, are still paragons of warfare. They still have learned everything there is to know about war and are capable of doing a lot more than their "main theme" suggests. Even Templar aren't simpleminded brutes and savages like say World eaters, and they do not fight for the fightings sake, they fight to get the job done.

 

I just want to challange the idea that every chapter only has one true way of fighting, or that you only have one true way of playing certain chapters. I think this idea has spiraled out of control.

 

On the flipside everyone isn't the ultramarines who can do everything either.

[Red_Shift]

I like the snipers and the librarian. It's the unseen second part of the box that worries me a little. I feel that between intercessors and bolter reivers primaris have the base tactical type build down solid, what they really lack is good anti tank and good melee and the artwork doesn't seem to suggest that this is a hole likely to be filled with the rest of the release. I hope it is, probably selfishly as I've painted some fifty intercessors and 20 reivers so more bolter marines doesn't scratch an itch for me.

 

I'm not too worried re lack of bling as I can add it. As others have said, its harder to file off detail than add it in.

[Marshal Rohr]

Primaris won’t get good melee units until their Sequitor and evocator units come out

[Ishagu]

Yeah I need to see a tank unit.

 

We might get small, fast moving tank hunters simar to the Pallas Grav Attack.

[Mmmmm Napalm]

 

 

I don't mean that any of it won't appeal to anyone who plays the more "straightforward" minded chapters, but the Vanguard appear to be a significant section of the Primaris roster, at least for the future, and I don't think that someone who is really interested in making a very fluffy army of Imperial FIsts, or Iron Hands, or in our case Templars, will be particularly interested in the Vanguard as a part of their army. To reiterate for the sake of clarity, I do not mean that nobody who plays said chapters will be interested in Vanguard. I simply don't think their theme meshes really well with some chapters; I assume that this will affect some people's level of interest in the Vanguard.

 

 

As I understand it, The Imperial Fists are a fairly straightforward chapter, tactically speaking. They place an emphasis on stoicism and endurance, and are proficient in sieges and urban conflicts. They aren't a chapter disposed towards flashiness or dramatic shows of prowess; they're professionals who are there to get the job done. Based on this, I don't personally see somebody who really likes the Imperial Fists being as interested in Reivers as someone who plays as Raven Guard or Raptors.

 

The basis for this is, of course, my opinion, but we are dealing with subjective matters of opinion surrounding visual design and the lore of a fictional setting. I didn't think that my assumption was particularly egregious or inappropriate.

 

I'm not annoyed, and you aren't coming off as particularly rude. My apologies if I come across that way myself.

 

 

Oh certainly you aren't. I'm just stating this to be on the safe side, because I'm latching onto this a bit forcefully

 

I get what you're saying. The chapters do have styles of warfare, they do have preferred tactics. But its also easy to fall into lazy thinking because of it. These chapters must not always fight this way, and in fact adopt a variety of different tactics.

 

I can see a no nonsense chapter using reivers to for instance plant a bomb on an enemy fortification, they don't neccessarily have to bring their biggest cannon to do it (poor example perhaps, since its not something you'd typically see in a game) Or even, why could they not employ diversionary forces outside their fortifications while under siege to disrupt the attackers, while the rest of the chapter "mans the walls". (I ended up talking about Fists regardless)

 

My point is, even the most narrowminded chapters, like the Templars, are still paragons of warfare. They still have learned everything there is to know about war and are capable of doing a lot more than their "main theme" suggests. Even Templar aren't simpleminded brutes and savages like say World eaters, and they do not fight for the fightings sake, they fight to get the job done.

 

I just want to challange the idea that every chapter only has one true way of fighting, or that you only have one true way of playing certain chapters. I think this idea has spiraled out of control.

 

On the flipside everyone isn't the ultramarines who can do everything either.

 

 

Oh yeah I totally agree, they still use varied tactics and execute tasks in a variety of ways, and I can definitely see a chapter like the Fists finding a use for Vanguard. The question isn't "would they use this at all", it's the appeal of the Vanguard. I'm also coming at this from the perspective of a person who is 1) very fluff-focused and 2) dislikes the appearance of Reiver armor. I'm not making my Intercessors Black Templars because the Templars don't adhere to the codex, so it didn't seem appropriate to use a codex unit even if I like the appearance and the concept of Intercessors. It's not that the Templars couldn't, it's that it didn't feel quite right fluff wise to me personally, and I wanted my BT to feel as BT as possible. I was just applying that mindset to a hypothetical Fists player who was very insistent on playing Fists in an orthodox manner.

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

 

Oh yeah I totally agree, they still use varied tactics and execute tasks in a variety of ways, and I can definitely see a chapter like the Fists finding a use for Vanguard. The question isn't "would they use this at all", it's the appeal of the Vanguard. I'm also coming at this from the perspective of a person who is 1) very fluff-focused and 2) dislikes the appearance of Reiver armor. I'm not making my Intercessors Black Templars because the Templars don't adhere to the codex, so it didn't seem appropriate to use a codex unit even if I like the appearance and the concept of Intercessors. It's not that the Templars couldn't, it's that it didn't feel quite right fluff wise to me personally, and I wanted my BT to feel as BT as possible. I was just applying that mindset to a hypothetical Fists player who was very insistent on playing Fists in an orthodox manner.

 

 

Oh I can relate. I took a 2 year hiatus from Templars completely because I couldn't jive with Primaris. I'm now in the process of slowly making a Primaris crusade though, as I've at least warmed up to their look, if not their fluff.

 

I'd like to challange the notion that just because they're fielding intercessors (or, think "squads of basic primaris marines with bolt rifles") that they must've neccessarily adopted the codex. An all bolter crusader squad before wasn't a Tactical squad following the codex just because their equipment  happened to coincide? Yes there's a bit of a black hole with how Templar are incorporating Primaris marines (in fact ALL chapters organization are kind of a mess right since they've forcibly have had to left the 10x10x10 marine structure that used to be so rigid...) but my point is Templar can just easily be fielding them on their own terms, just as they are "following the codex". There's nothing inherent saying fielding them is a codex appliant action or otherwise.

 

Yeah sure I'd like rules for a Crusader intercessor squad with chainswords and Reiver neophytes, but I don't think that's coming around soon.

[Mmmmm Napalm]

So I suppose the questions that remain are:

• What else will be included in Wave 2, and is it all Vanguard?
• What will the next wave be, and when?

So far we have seen:

• HQ's: Vanguard Captain, Lt., and Librarian
• Troops: Dudes with Mk. 7/Reiver helms
• Heavy Support: Eliminators?

If this wave is representative of how they will all be formatted then they should each contain a new troop choice and a couple options for Fast Attack, Heavy Support, etc. Hopefully the next wave is Melee Assault themed.

 

I'd like them to release the Primaris waves relatively quickly to be honest. It's funny, the fact that they're taking their time releasing these guys is preventing me from buying kits. I want to now what the range is going to look like when it's been somewhat finalized, and I don't want to waste any of my 25 Emperor's Spears chapter symbols/10 black tactical arrow decals on some unit that I feel meh about, only for a new one to release that I really like.

[Firepower]

Ehhh...not really feeling these guys. Oh well.

[Sete]

The Captain shown in the picture (Telion look alike) is using MKX armour right? Or do my eyes deceive me?

Nevermind it's Reiver armour.

[War Angel]

Where are you guys finding this new stuff? I wanna see them lol

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I really like these models, but I kinda agree that they don't really fit the Templar aesthetic very well.

I'm not against the idea of Templars running more covert ops per se, there's this almost pervasive view that Templars fight one way and one way only, when they clearly don't. (A lot of people perhaps forget that there's a copy of the Codex Astartes on the Eternal Crusader, described by Grimaldus as the ultimate treatise on Astartes warfare. We just don't follow it slavishly.)

 

Anywho,

 

The Librarian in particular is an awesome sculpt, probably the most dynamic looking Librarian model ever. They usually stand pretty still and upright, like they're conducting from afar, this guy looks like he's right in the fray, dishing out some warp shenanigans like a Jedi.

 

It's just a shame he's a filthy witch...

[chapter master 454]

I think the issue here is quite...fitting. Even in the lore of recent, GW seems to be responding to us as the lore mimics our own stances. The big thing here to remember is where primaris come from in the lore and sadly, that is from a time when it wasn't what we know today.

 

Gulliman made primaris to be scientific. No rituals, no prayers (or almost none, primaris chaplains do kind of fly against the grain here) or the like. Straight science. What happens when we go that route? Sci-Fi. Now 40k has always had this "gothic Sci-Fi" feel that I would almost say they made and held as their golden standard. What Primaris look like, is "High Sci-Fi" where no answer can't be achieved. No question unanswerable. This is a MASSIVE shift in tone and design space for 40k and we are talking massive as in you went from straight grim-dark no milk tea to 75% milk tea. This means that a lot of us are actually in a very understandable position, the established fan-base has grown extremely attached to the marines we know and love.

 

However, sadly with what people are saying and as they are being proven true then something else is true following it: Like the Empire of Fantasy, Space Marines (as we know them) ARE being phased out. Lets not try and hide it, GW are trying to move on. These new marines are designed for new audiences and they only keep the old marines around for us old timers. What place do the old astartes have now unless we are given one soon? The only possibility lies in a civil war within the imperium, returning us to the days of true grim-dark (though I would find the stagnation of lore to be quite tedious once more).

 

Personally, from an objective stand-point, the models look amazing. Don't argue that. They look fantastic. Our own personal opinions will vary. I personally lean towards liking them from a model stand-point but from the stand point of someone who looks at his marines. Who looks to his models. Marines being my first army. Marines being an army I love dearly still to this day (regardless of how much we get shafted in our codex for rules), I find the fact that GW still won't actually tell us the truth more unnerving and straight out vulgur in the greatest. I don't care if they have a grand plan for us old-startes and want to keep it secret like Gulliman's primaris. At least tell us if we have a future, or if we should actually move on. At least let us know, so we don't hold out hope.

[Captain Idaho]

I think it's notable the models have the same sort of role as Reivers and thus undermine those models - by being better looking.

 

It's also notable that they take greater elements of MK7 (particularly the helm) and are more iconic.

[Sea-People]

These new primaris look soooo much better than the first wave (at least to me)! Wonder how whatever the troop choice ends up being called will be different from intercessors.

 

The way the cloaks look makes we wonder if the Eliminators are mono pose though.

 

Only thing I can really take away from this is to never, EVER buy old marines again unless I need them for a list. Hopefully Primaris get access to some of the old vehicles down the line, as well as some new ones.

[Mmmmm Napalm]

I think it's notable the models have the same sort of role as Reivers and thus undermine those models - by being better looking.

 

It's also notable that they take greater elements of MK7 (particularly the helm) and are more iconic.

I think that Reivers will retroactively be made a part of the Primaris Vanguard, and will be the elite choice for them.

[old git]

Personally, I think those who are wishing for 'primaris equivalent unit x' are in for a disappointing future. I imagine that future primaris releases will see units that fill similar roles but primaris terminators or primaris jump packers...? Probably not.

[Dracos]

I'm not a fan of the MK7 helmet. I'll do the same thing with them I planned on doing with the skull helmets. Bu whatever I need of  Intercessor helmet bits.

 

 

Gulliman made primaris to be scientific. No rituals, no prayers (or almost none, primaris chaplains do kind of fly against the grain here) or the like. Straight science.

 

I don't know about canon-lore, but my thought is the Primaris Chaplain preaches the Emperor's philosophy of science and logic. With the Greyshields it's not a problem, it's likely much closer to the culture they came from. But even using hypno-training I can see the need for a Chaplain to reinforce the Emperor's pursuit of science to newer recruits from the current timeline.

 

 

PS: I think we're just going to have to accept Gravis = Terminator and Inceptor = Jump Pack for now. 

[Lemondish]

I think the issue here is quite...fitting. Even in the lore of recent, GW seems to be responding to us as the lore mimics our own stances. The big thing here to remember is where primaris come from in the lore and sadly, that is from a time when it wasn't what we know today.

 

Gulliman made primaris to be scientific. No rituals, no prayers (or almost none, primaris chaplains do kind of fly against the grain here) or the like. Straight science. What happens when we go that route? Sci-Fi. Now 40k has always had this "gothic Sci-Fi" feel that I would almost say they made and held as their golden standard. What Primaris look like, is "High Sci-Fi" where no answer can't be achieved. No question unanswerable. This is a MASSIVE shift in tone and design space for 40k and we are talking massive as in you went from straight grim-dark no milk tea to 75% milk tea. This means that a lot of us are actually in a very understandable position, the established fan-base has grown extremely attached to the marines we know and love.

 

However, sadly with what people are saying and as they are being proven true then something else is true following it: Like the Empire of Fantasy, Space Marines (as we know them) ARE being phased out. Lets not try and hide it, GW are trying to move on. These new marines are designed for new audiences and they only keep the old marines around for us old timers. What place do the old astartes have now unless we are given one soon? The only possibility lies in a civil war within the imperium, returning us to the days of true grim-dark (though I would find the stagnation of lore to be quite tedious once more).

 

Personally, from an objective stand-point, the models look amazing. Don't argue that. They look fantastic. Our own personal opinions will vary. I personally lean towards liking them from a model stand-point but from the stand point of someone who looks at his marines. Who looks to his models. Marines being my first army. Marines being an army I love dearly still to this day (regardless of how much we get shafted in our codex for rules), I find the fact that GW still won't actually tell us the truth more unnerving and straight out vulgur in the greatest. I don't care if they have a grand plan for us old-startes and want to keep it secret like Gulliman's primaris. At least tell us if we have a future, or if we should actually move on. At least let us know, so we don't hold out hope.

They have told us.

 

They just haven't given us the answer many seem to want. Interestingly, their constant reassurances that old marines are going nowhere doesn't matter - some just want to be upset and want to light the torch and hold that pitch fork aloft. It seems to me that what's bothering many is that GW haven't yet given them the answer they need to fully fly off the handle, so instead they sit in simmering rage waiting for a statement that even hints at contradicting all the others.

 

I'm glad they're expanding into a new aesthetic with some amazing models. I'm also glad the basic marine line is so expansive and complete. Not because I like it - heavens no. Those models are garish, disproportioned trash. I'm glad because others love it. The new does not destroy the old - especially when they receive nonstop additional rule support.

[Sete]

The new does replace the old.

And the old usually goes the way of the dodo.

If people want to be upset by it, it's within their rights.

For years people have invested on a line that suddenly became secondary.

I can fully understand the simmering rage.

You like the new coke, others prefer old coke.

 

Now I'm trying to understand where these vanguard fit within the chapter structure.

Is it a specialized company?

It does seem like that. It won't be the traditional 10th training company.