Vanguard Primaris Marines - Intro Thread

[Lemondish]

I think the issue here is quite...fitting. Even in the lore of recent, GW seems to be responding to us as the lore mimics our own stances. The big thing here to remember is where primaris come from in the lore and sadly, that is from a time when it wasn't what we know today.

 

Gulliman made primaris to be scientific. No rituals, no prayers (or almost none, primaris chaplains do kind of fly against the grain here) or the like. Straight science. What happens when we go that route? Sci-Fi. Now 40k has always had this "gothic Sci-Fi" feel that I would almost say they made and held as their golden standard. What Primaris look like, is "High Sci-Fi" where no answer can't be achieved. No question unanswerable. This is a MASSIVE shift in tone and design space for 40k and we are talking massive as in you went from straight grim-dark no milk tea to 75% milk tea. This means that a lot of us are actually in a very understandable position, the established fan-base has grown extremely attached to the marines we know and love.

 

However, sadly with what people are saying and as they are being proven true then something else is true following it: Like the Empire of Fantasy, Space Marines (as we know them) ARE being phased out. Lets not try and hide it, GW are trying to move on. These new marines are designed for new audiences and they only keep the old marines around for us old timers. What place do the old astartes have now unless we are given one soon? The only possibility lies in a civil war within the imperium, returning us to the days of true grim-dark (though I would find the stagnation of lore to be quite tedious once more).

 

Personally, from an objective stand-point, the models look amazing. Don't argue that. They look fantastic. Our own personal opinions will vary. I personally lean towards liking them from a model stand-point but from the stand point of someone who looks at his marines. Who looks to his models. Marines being my first army. Marines being an army I love dearly still to this day (regardless of how much we get shafted in our codex for rules), I find the fact that GW still won't actually tell us the truth more unnerving and straight out vulgur in the greatest. I don't care if they have a grand plan for us old-startes and want to keep it secret like Gulliman's primaris. At least tell us if we have a future, or if we should actually move on. At least let us know, so we don't hold out hope.

They have told us.

 

They just haven't given us the answer many seem to want. Interestingly, their constant reassurances that old marines are going nowhere doesn't matter - some just want to be upset and want to light the torch and hold that pitch fork aloft. It seems to me that what's bothering many is that GW haven't yet given them the answer they need to fully fly off the handle, so instead they sit in simmering rage waiting for a statement that even hints at contradicting all the others.

 

I'm glad they're expanding into a new aesthetic with some amazing models. I'm also glad the basic marine line is so expansive and complete. Not because I like it - heavens no. Those models are garish, disproportioned trash. I'm glad because others love it. The new does not destroy the old - especially when they receive nonstop additional rule support.

[Sete]

The new does replace the old.

And the old usually goes the way of the dodo.

If people want to be upset by it, it's within their rights.

For years people have invested on a line that suddenly became secondary.

I can fully understand the simmering rage.

You like the new coke, others prefer old coke.

 

Now I'm trying to understand where these vanguard fit within the chapter structure.

Is it a specialized company?

It does seem like that. It won't be the traditional 10th training company.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah as an Ultramarines fan I always knew the Chapter structure off by heart and now I don't know where I am! It's a little unsettling!

 

***

 

=][= People shouldn't be so dismissive of others concerns or position as it provokes a response and that's pretty close to trolling. This thread shouldn't descend into that direction of conversation so let's keep it on topic right =][=

[Dark_Jober]

Well... I really like the new Vanguard boys...

 

I think it is clear that GW is bringing 30k to the 40k timeline. It could be nice, because we could receive fantastic grav-vehicles/bikes, mobile gun platforms, etc.

 

In the other hand, I'm a Black Templar so... I need more Zeal, more CC focused units... yeah, they could simply add Powerfists to the Reivers and I will have a stupid smile on my face, deepstriking, rerrolling to charge and then making some noise.

 

But... These releases look like the end of classic marines... Scouts seems now dead and buried, like Tacticals before them...

Will be receive a rulebook codex between HH and Primaris Era? Because I have many Oldmarines and I'm not going to throw them to a box and forget them.

[Ishagu]

Classic Astartes will not be scrapped any time soon, if at all.

In the long term nothing is safe of course. One day 20 years from now Primaris might be scrapped.

 

It's important for us to accept that nothing lasts forever. There are people who've invested countless months and thousands of pounds/dollars into MMOs and the servers eventually shut down. It's the same with a model range. Your collection will always belong to you, but models will not be supported indefinitely.

[Kinstryfe]

On the new models, I really like them. I have a feeling that we'll see at least one more "stand alone" company structure after this one to mirror the tactical-assault-devastator companies of the classic layout. I really like that they're not just direct mirrors though. The vanguard looks like it'll have a bit of flavor different from just X but bigger once it's done, and I'm always in favor of more options, especially if the option is there to mix in old units in some capacity as several existing units seem like they'd work well.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Tell me Ishagu, in which army of warrior monks does the spec ops operative vibe fits?

Black Templars

Space Wolves

Raven Guard

Salamanders

Ultramarines

White Scars

Dark Angels

Blood Angels

Iron Hands

Imperial Fists

Crimson Fists

 

To be honest? Every one except the BTs, and that's more of a 'Scout issue' than a 'sniper issue'. Probably the best fit is the SWs, because they're the only Chapter with sensible Scouts. It's always been a bit mad the the rookies are made recon dudes and snipers, when those roles are generally on the specialised side irl. If Primaris are moving away from that (still a shame we know so little about the mechanics and world building of Primaris), then that's actually one way that the new fluff would be an improvement over the old.

 

However, Marines have always been a weird mishmash of religious order and special forces, that's nothing new. Even BTs have at least a few toes in the SpecOps camp, as we know they serve in the Deathwatch, which wouldn't be viable if they were only 'ZEAL! MUST HIT WITH SWORD!'.

 

Don't like the Primaris? Fair play, I'm not exactly enamoured with their fluff either (models are better, but have their own issues imo). Disappointed that we're getting another long range infantry unit (especially as Intercessors having Stalkers already seemed to fit the 'Sniper' niche) instead of something faster and/or more choppy? I'm with you 100% on that. Think the new rifles are anomalous and too 'G36-y'? Fair enough, but now we're getting into hard to pin down personal taste. But this 'Snipers don't fit with Marines' hill seems like a strange one to fight over.

 

We got another vital clue about Primaris organization. There is a whole company of Unconventional Space Marines called the Vanguard. Is this the new 10th company? They all seem to wear the new chest badge that the Reavers have. So the assumption is that the Reievers fit into this organization. I like that. That’s what I always thought would be the case. We see a reaver captain and lt, plus a librarian. We have reaver heavy support squads in the Eliminators, and an as of yet unspecified troops choice that looks awesome as well. This actually makes me like Reavers (I know I’m not being consistent in my spelling..). I’m expecting some kind of landspeeder storm type vehicle to go with them. Regardless this is cool. I want to know more.

 

 

Do we? Am I missing something? There was no mention of Vanguard being a specific company in the Community article. There's certainly no mention of them being the 'training company' ala a traditional 10th. Not saying you're wrong, mind, but you seem to making assumptions and seeing 'clues' that aren't in the article. All we know for certain is that Vanguard Marines are a thing, and they're sneaky dudes. It's entirely possible that a Primaris Chapter will include multiple 'Vanguard Companies', or that they won't be 100% Vanguard Marines, but will have a core of basic dudes and then Vanguard specialists. This latter idea seems plausible imo, because otherwise every new specialism will need its 'basic bolter dude', which would bloat the range something awful. But on the other hand, the new 'specialisms' like Vanguard may be entirely apart from the Company structure, organised as a separate entity from the line companies akin to the Paladins and Purifiers of the GKs. We just don't know atm.

 

As an aside, why are people assuming beaded dude form the picture is a Captain? He could just as easily be a Sergeant. Especially as this new box is directly compared to Tooth and Claw, Forgebane etc. These previous boxes have only had 1 HQ per side, so the Librarian is probably all we're getting on the HQ front.

[Sete]

I disagree leaf there are a few more chapters that would fit the bill.

From that list BT, IH, IF, BA. They don't seem to be the type of actually employing assassination tactics.

 

But let's move on with the discussion.

The release was miles off of what I was expecting but I rather not dwell on what it could have been and focus on what it can be. I'm trying man. Baby steps.

[Panzer]

BA don't restrict themselves regarding any kind of tactics, really. They have a thing for assaulting enemies directly and try to minimize civilian casualties where possible but that's it.

[Sete]

BA don't restrict themselves regarding any kind of tactics, really. They have a thing for assaulting enemies directly and try to minimize civilian casualties where possible but that's it.

Ok then Flesh Tearers. :D

[Panzer]

 

BA don't restrict themselves regarding any kind of tactics, really. They have a thing for assaulting enemies directly and try to minimize civilian casualties where possible but that's it.

Ok then Flesh Tearers.

 

 

Flesh Tearers are basically BA with the personality of BT, so yeah. :D

[Marshal Reinhard]

I take issue with that. BT aren't loony savages ;)

[Dumah]

I disagree leaf there are a few more chapters that would fit the bill.

From that list BT, IH, IF, BA. They don't seem to be the type of actually employing assassination tactics.

 

Iron Hands are concerned only with logic and efficiency, using whatever means is required to best eliminate the foe. A shot to the head from a mile out rather than running at their foe with a sword is entirely within their modus operandi.

 

To quote a veteran sergeant of Clan Dorrvok: "A bolt-round to the back of the head will end a fight as surely as a power sword to the front. Outcome is all. Consideration of anything more is pride, and pride is weakness."

[bolvar]

Yeah, of those 4 mentioned, IH wouldn't have any issues regarding tactical flexibility

[Sete]

Hmm need to catch up on IH lore.

[Captain Idaho]

GW is, in my opinion, conscious of the backlash of a significant portion of the community regarding Primaris. They've committed now but you can see how they've adapted (which explains why Wave 2 came out so long after Wave 1 of Primaris).

 

I genuinely believe GW has tried to bridge the gap between people who like and hate Primaris respectively by first Calgar (it didn't work) but now this new style of Vanguard Primaris.

 

They are much more similar to existing Marines and I like them more than previous Primaris (even though we've not seen much). They have helms more similar to what we expect from Classic Marines for example.

 

And I have noted GW deliberately included Tactical Marines alongside Intercessors regarding their blurb on the background of Vanguard. That's deliberately done I feel.

 

(Of course my position hasn't changed. I still want to see a couple new Classic Marine variants - Destroyers and Breachers upgrades to Assault and Tactical Marines but other new stuff if they wish it)

[Ogun]

Probably worth remembering that this box set does actually contains 'normal' marines as well. No sign of the Black Legion being Primarized. 

[Captain Idaho]

Codex Marines can't take them any more than they can take Genestealer Cult...

[Ogun]

I meant more that GW are still making 'normal marines' just not in the loyalist flavour at present.

[Panzer]

Nobody ever argued that though. It was always clear that they will keep making normal Marines for Chaos.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

On the new models, I really like them. I have a feeling that we'll see at least one more "stand alone" company structure after this one to mirror the tactical-assault-devastator companies of the classic layout. I really like that they're not just direct mirrors though. The vanguard looks like it'll have a bit of flavor different from just X but bigger once it's done, and I'm always in favor of more options, especially if the option is there to mix in old units in some capacity as several existing units seem like they'd work well.

I think that is how they will handle it. They make a "codex" release for them, with generic relics/strategems (and maybe some unique ones for the chapters that favor that style). That would allow them to add some stratagem support to make the army play right (these new troops should infiltrate, but just having it would make them better options than intercessors/reivers).

 

Hopefully this wave addresses a few of our wishes namely a cheap transport and either a flyer or landspeeder (they need some anti-tank).

[Boldthreat]

@Lief Bearclaw

 

Oh I am reading into it for sure. But let’s be clear about that picture. The bearded guy is a Captain. He is bedecked in the red cord on his chest, what looks to be a captains robe and more bling. Neither of his knee pads have the Sgt insignia as is on every ultramarines sgt shown in the art this edition. Further more we know he is not a lieutenant because the lieutenant is actually right next to him. The LT badge is clearly visible and his lower face mask is not red. We also know he is not equipped like the troops choice around him as he appears to have the reavers glider fins on his backpack. Neither the captain nor the battle line squads have that.

 

The box sets so far have been pretty spot on with what is depicted on the cover represents the models that come in the box.

 

So we know there is at least a company with a Captain and a Lt. you could be right, there could be multiple companies of vanguard... but I wouldn’t be so sure. I think the Space Marines will ultimately be close to a traditional structure. I do believe in an all Primaris Chapter, the Vanguard just might be the “scout company”.

[Ogun]

Nobody ever argued that though. It was always clear that they will keep making normal Marines for Chaos.

 

I'm not sure it has always been clear. I have seen the scale up Chaos argument in the past, though I won't claim it was necessarily widespread. 

If GW continue to keep Chaos marines at current scale then they will need to keep supplying Rhino and Land Raider based kits at the same scale as both are too deeply embedded in the lore to abandon. That leaves a de facto longer term support for the loyalist versions. If you update the Rhino for example, when has GW ever not done that first for the main marine line? I doubt we will be seeing anything for the normal marines for quite some time though. Primaris are the new poster child after all. In a few years time though once the Primaris are established, and the old range is looking increasingly creaky? Who knows. 

 

Either way, I'm looking forwards to seeing what the other kits in the box turn out to be.

[Ishagu]

I can imagine that each chaos Legion eventually ends up with their own vehicles. The ranges are becoming more distinctive.

[Dracos]

 

Everything the disproportionate Scouts are not. Finally something that is scaled properly and feels like the spec ops unit they should be .... not the mushed face squat look that was so ugly I couldn't bare to purchase no matter how much I wanted / needed to fill out the Troop slots.

 

I'll miss the cheaper Troop choice but there is no going back. My hope is there is a non-Intercessor Troop choice here somewhere so I can just go all Primaris on my army list (sans the Xiphons) from this point forward. (I could do 30 Intercessors ... but that too much redundancy without need or purpose even for me)

 

 

.