Community Survey 2019

[Medjugorje]

 

At some point GW said they would never "Squat something" again, but that's pretty much what happened to Sisters and to the Templar indipendence. the 2017 survey had them reverse the first mistake, so its just fitting that this one reverse the other

You can't really compare the Sisters of Battle's situation since third edition with the Black Templars. The Black Templars have plastic upgrade sprues, a plastic Land Raider variant, three special characters, and the sword brethren in resin. On top of that, the Black Templars are a variant of the most extensive range of models and have always had rules printed in physical codices (maybe not in the way you like, but they still exist). The Sisters have, since third edition I think, not had a real codex (and even that one was actually an Inquisition codex). We've had a White Dwarf codex, a digital codex, an Index, and a beta codex.

 

I get that Black Templar players feel betrayed, but when I switch out my case from Sisters to Heresy marines, the case is far lighter. Why: because all of our infantry, our only Walker, and half of our main battle tank are all solid metal (most of which hasn't been updated this millenium). There are university students right now younger than the majority of the Sisters' sculpts. It's not the same.

 

?????????????? The sisters used to be sisters all the time.

 

We used to be Black Ultramarines. We are DEAD. THX GW for that

btw.... i am not Sete - although we have the same picture.

[Sete]

A shame the thread has been moved from news rumours and announcements to our Sub Forum, it will not have the same visibility.

Even so I must ask of you all spread the message if you are willing.

 

Question for mods, can it be moved to amicus at least or the Adeptus Astartes forum?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The survey was listed as coming in the LVO Warhammer Community article.

[Sete]

Thanks for the support guys, I actually was dreading logging in, was expecting a bit of backlash for my post.

 

"But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly because you tread on my dreams"

 

You are free to vote on whatever you want. This is just a request of someone who dreads asking help from people. This is not easy at all for me.

Last year I went on full support on Sisters of Battle, this year I will try to gather as much support as I can for this objective.

 

If you want to vote HH, Xenos or think there are too many chapters as it is, fair play to you guys, thanks for taking the time to read my post. I promise you no hard feelings. :)

[Marshal Vespasian]

Naturally I will be voting for our course as I left 40k when we had our own codex and I wish to retake what was once ours. It is not called the eternal crusade for nothing ;)

[m0nolith]

 

If you want to vote HH, Xenos or think there are too many chapters as it is, fair play to you guys, thanks for taking the time to read my post. I promise you no hard feelings.

Theres absolutely no reason why we cant vote for several things.

Since you made this thread I plan on voting for a Black Templars codex as well as the 30k stuff I mentioned.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Oh it's not a contest we have to get all salty and jealous over each other for? That's reassuring

[Captain Idaho]

A shame the thread has been moved from news rumours and announcements to our Sub Forum, it will not have the same visibility.

Even so I must ask of you all spread the message if you are willing.

Question for mods, can it be moved to amicus at least or the Adeptus Astartes forum?

I'm not speaking as a Mod of this forum and it's not for me to act upon, but this is specific to the Black Templars so I imagine it's quite relevant here over elsewhere.

 

A more generic version of the topic could go elsewhere but you'd have to accept a wider opinion. Likely some you might not find useful to your cause....

[Sete]

 

A shame the thread has been moved from news rumours and announcements to our Sub Forum, it will not have the same visibility.

Even so I must ask of you all spread the message if you are willing.

Question for mods, can it be moved to amicus at least or the Adeptus Astartes forum?

I'm not speaking as a Mod of this forum and it's not for me to act upon, but this is specific to the Black Templars so I imagine it's quite relevant here over elsewhere.

 

A more generic version of the topic could go elsewhere but you'd have to accept a wider opinion. Likely some you might not find useful to your cause....

I shall do a more generic version of the thread going forward.

Think we as a community could push for several things.

I see the HH fans want MK2, and that's something I could get behind aswell.

It's something we can also mention on the final notes.

 

You gave a good idea Idaho and I shall make a broader version with what we as a community could push for for the various sistems 40k related.

Having MK2 would not affect the chances of a Black Templars codex in any way I reckon.

In 6 months to a year a book or even an Index could be written. We already share most of the models with the regular SM range.

 

I'll shall make something worthy for all of us.

[Captain Idaho]

Sounds like a good plan. MK2 Breachers would be cool (that's 30K and 40K) and make good kit bash fodder. New Black Templars specific units is cool to me. If we can put a community weight behind things then maybe GW would hear us.

[Sete]

I'll shall ask Valrak for a hand aswell. I will post on Reddit and FB groups with a revised list of requests. Obviously all hands on deck helping would be nice.

I do not want to impose my BT wish list on you, just a personal favour.

[Slave to Darkness]

 

If you want to vote HH, Xenos or think there are too many chapters as it is, fair play to you guys, thanks for taking the time to read my post. I promise you no hard feelings.

Theres absolutely no reason why we cant vote for several things.

Since you made this thread I plan on voting for a Black Templars codex as well as the 30k stuff I mentioned.

 

Well if we can vote for more than one Ill gladly throw out a request for Codex Monty Python and the Holy Grail... Gotta have me some Holy Orb of Antioch action again. 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

We already have the Orb back?

[bolvar]

Yes Brother Adelard, it's in the vigilus book, alongside the sword brethen detachment

[Medjugorje]

We already have the Orb back?

yes. But as a meh relic to be honest.

[Schlitzaf]

If we do ask for codex or even just an index Astartes. I just want to reiterate, something I have said in the past, focus on mechanics and what we actually lost. Or put another way, I see us mentioning vows, a lot. Mechanically or flavorfully we now have 3 of our 4 vows.

 

1) Abhor

2) Suffer

3) Uphold

 

What we are lacking is “Accept”. Secondly I hear repeated cries for return of Unique Units. If we want UU units, try and look at our history for our actual UU. The short list is

 

1) Emperor’s Champion

2) Crusader Squads

-Biker Crusader Squads

3) No Librarians

4) Neophyte Ancients

5) Durandal Dreadnoughts

6) Unique Assault Squads

7) Sword Brothern*

8) Cenobytes

 

What was not unique but just leftover from 4th Ed

1) Reclusiarch & Master of Sanctity profiles

2) Veteran Skills on Elite

3) Sword Brothern*

 

Now some of the leftover Codex syndrome has been retained for us;

1) MSU Heavy/Spec/Combi

2) Marshall & Castallen (now Universal)

 

Now why am I beating this poor horse? Because if we want a new Codex, we have to give GW a reason. If we say “want Sword Brothern” they’ll say “look Vigilus”. If we say “Vows and Champion”, they’ll scratch heads and say “you have them”.

 

The cornerstone of that, is reemphasising unique units and by extension playstyle. Now I mention EChampion and Vows. What were vows? An army buff. Making our Crusader Squads in top or reasonably teired melee Units. One of our core issues is that the Crusader Squad geared to melee has dreadful efficiency issues.

 

1A Power Swords. And our buffs for our chapter should focus on 1A Power weapons. Now the other thing I mention is image. How are Templars visually distinctive? It’s our Crusader Squads. Their unique model make up more than “Vows” on the battlefield is what separates us from Joe Marine’s.

 

Biker Crusader Squads and a Neophyte Ancient, reintroduction to our chapter would further make us distinctive. The second thing, is allowing us to replace Special Weapons with Power Weapons (Or Flamers with Power Weapons). Alongside an additional buff to enable 1A Power Weapons.

 

That would give us among other things a very unique look. I want a codex. But more importantly what I want is a codex that feels unique. The final thing? We need to figure out what we lose beside Librarians. The divergent/non C:SM Chapters lose Units from C:SM, most notable examples are

 

1) Centurions

2) Ironclads

3) Thunderfire

 

Tl;dr

I’m with all of you, but when writing a response. Don’t get stuck in the “our old codex” trap. Look at our old codex and then look at the 4th Ed Marine Codex. Look at what seperate our two books. And more importantly, fluff is awesome. But remember why are we not just another shade of black marines on the tabletop. What are our visual armor highlights.

 

*Sword Brothern are literally Company Veterans in rules. Something also shown in our Vigilus detachment. We did lose them in 6th-7th, but for them back in 8th. What we need in that regard is option to take larger squads.

[SydonianDragoon404]

I honestly don't see why its necessary when we have our own detachment in Vigilus. I haven't seen a really compelling argument as to why yet. I didn't play the 4th/5th edition Templar codex as I wasn't in the game yet. More and more of the old timers will have to face the fact that there will be a growing population of BT players similar to myself.

 

I own a copy of the old the Codex. Is it cool? Yes. Will our army be functional with some buffs to our units along side the Sword Brethren detachment? Yes. I don't see why we need our own codex. 

[bolvar]

Don't forget Crusader seals from 4th edition codex brother Schlitzaf. They could be back giving us as gear available for all our units, maybe related to any new rule we get

 

Another rule lost with the loss of our codex was our own battlecry: No pity, no remorse, no fear!. That rule gave us fearless when in an assault, and disabled falling back, no matter the foe. That could be brought back too, giving us automatic successed moral checks while in combat and not allowing us to fall back. Fitting.

 

 

Regarding bows: we have abhor the witch as a stratagem, alongside uphold the honour of the emperor and suffer not the unclean to live in the Vigilus book. That leaves only Accept any challenge no matter the odds.

This vow was the strongest one (alongside being the most expensive), and it was the one who almost everyone took by default, giving us hitting on 3+ no matter the opponent, and later army-wide failed rerolls on the assault phase.

That vow was the one that allowed us to represent our way of warfare: facing in honorable combat any foe and giving us a buff regarding our way of fighting. If we want to be truly again a melee-focused army, we need it back, giving us some kind of buff in the fight phase.

How to implement it? I'd suggest this way:

As a stratagem (like all the other bows), with the condition that it's used before the battle (all other bows are used during the game).

Cost: 5 CP. Why so expensive? Because we are an army that fields a lot more battle brothers than most chapters. It would cost the same CPs a battalion detachment gives.

And what would give us? Something that affect all <BLACK TEMPLARS> infantry and dreadnoughts, giving us some extra punch regarding melee. I don't know exactly what, because we have ample supply of rerolls via characters. Maybe +1 attack for every affected unit that either charges, receive a charge or performs an heroic intervention. A flat +1 to hit in fight phase would be very strong, but the stratagem is also one of the most expensive ones, if not the most. In short, extra punch in melee.

 

 

Regarding units (both new units and losing ones not fitting for us):

Combined biker units could make it back too, with both initiates and neophytes in bike.

We didn't have sergeants in units, that could be brought back, even if it hits heavily the crusader squads. Still, we would have army wide bonuses to counteract this (like the ones I said)

I wouldn't mind losing thunderfire cannons and whirlwinds either, for me, it didn't feel like part of our ways (we lost whirlwinds in the 4th edition codex, so there are precedents), but I guess GW doesn't work like that anymore, and it would be a hit for those who own those models.

Centurions are okay. Ironclads too (they are our durandals right?)

 

And the dreaded point: primaris.

This new codex should address how we field them, specially intercessors interacting with our crusader squads as both are troop choices. The same could be said about sword brethen rank primarines.

About balance of new and lost units, primaris would be a big part of it. For instance, I cannot see how Eliminators fit in our chapter, and I could bet there are more planned releases of primaris units that simply are not for us that could balance our available units for the game.

 

 

Regarding our lore: One point that could be addressed in our new codex is how primarines are regarded in our chapter and how they would fit in. Also, the classical reassurement of previous lore and some new stuff since the indomitus crusade, with a formal addressing in the codex of the 13th black crusade and the events happening in the gathering storm campaign, the fall of cadia, the ressurection of Guilliman, his meeting with Helbretch, the current state of our Reclusiarch Grimaldus (we haven't heard anything from him since Armaggedon, there is a lot of possibilites, including his reaction to primaris marines and such).

Lots and lots of possibilities indeed.

[Medjugorje]

I honestly don't see why its necessary when we have our own detachment in Vigilus. I haven't seen a really compelling argument as to why yet. I didn't play the 4th/5th edition Templar codex as I wasn't in the game yet. More and more of the old timers will have to face the fact that there will be a growing population of BT players similar to myself.

 

I own a copy of the old the Codex. Is it cool? Yes. Will our army be functional with some buffs to our units along side the Sword Brethren detachment? Yes. I don't see why we need our own codex. 

because you started as an Space Marine player.

 

I did not. I started as a Black Templar player. And if you like the way now... you would LOVE it then. I fully understand that you cannot be enthusiastic like I am, but why fighting against it? Trust me.

[Medjugorje]

Don't forget Crusader seals from 4th edition codex brother Schlitzaf. They could be back giving us as gear available for all our units, maybe related to any new rule we get

 

Another rule lost with the loss of our codex was our own battlecry: No pity, no remorse, no fear!. That rule gave us fearless when in an assault, and disabled falling back, no matter the foe. That could be brought back too, giving us automatic successed moral checks while in combat and not allowing us to fall back. Fitting.

 

 

Regarding bows: we have abhor the witch as a stratagem, alongside uphold the honour of the emperor and suffer not the unclean to live in the Vigilus book. That leaves only Accept any challenge no matter the odds.

This vow was the strongest one (alongside being the most expensive), and it was the one who almost everyone took by default, giving us hitting on 3+ no matter the opponent, and later army-wide failed rerolls on the assault phase.

That vow was the one that allowed us to represent our way of warfare: facing in honorable combat any foe and giving us a buff regarding our way of fighting. If we want to be truly again a melee-focused army, we need it back, giving us some kind of buff in the fight phase.

How to implement it? I'd suggest this way:

As a stratagem (like all the other bows), with the condition that it's used before the battle (all other bows are used during the game).

Cost: 5 CP. Why so expensive? Because we are an army that fields a lot more battle brothers than most chapters. It would cost the same CPs a battalion detachment gives.

And what would give us? Something that affect all <BLACK TEMPLARS> infantry and dreadnoughts, giving us some extra punch regarding melee. I don't know exactly what, because we have ample supply of rerolls via characters. Maybe +1 attack for every affected unit that either charges, receive a charge or performs an heroic intervention. A flat +1 to hit in fight phase would be very strong, but the stratagem is also one of the most expensive ones, if not the most. In short, extra punch in melee.

 

 

Regarding units (both new units and losing ones not fitting for us):

Combined biker units could make it back too, with both initiates and neophytes in bike.

We didn't have sergeants in units, that could be brought back, even if it hits heavily the crusader squads. Still, we would have army wide bonuses to counteract this (like the ones I said)

I wouldn't mind losing thunderfire cannons and whirlwinds either, for me, it didn't feel like part of our ways (we lost whirlwinds in the 4th edition codex, so there are precedents), but I guess GW doesn't work like that anymore, and it would be a hit for those who own those models.

Centurions are okay. Ironclads too (they are our durandals right?)

 

And the dreaded point: primaris.

This new codex should address how we field them, specially intercessors interacting with our crusader squads as both are troop choices. The same could be said about sword brethen rank primarines.

About balance of new and lost units, primaris would be a big part of it. For instance, I cannot see how Eliminators fit in our chapter, and I could bet there are more planned releases of primaris units that simply are not for us that could balance our available units for the game.

 

 

Regarding our lore: One point that could be addressed in our new codex is how primarines are regarded in our chapter and how they would fit in. Also, the classical reassurement of previous lore and some new stuff since the indomitus crusade, with a formal addressing in the codex of the 13th black crusade and the events happening in the gathering storm campaign, the fall of cadia, the ressurection of Guilliman, his meeting with Helbretch, the current state of our Reclusiarch Grimaldus (we haven't heard anything from him since Armaggedon, there is a lot of possibilites, including his reaction to primaris marines and such).

Lots and lots of possibilities indeed.

 

THIS

[Marshal Arthur]

Remember to temper your expectations brothers. As much as I’d love a codex I think our zeal could be better focused on other objectives. With the growing space marine line I’d prefer we prevent codex bloat (though I wouldn’t mind a last Wall Protocol codex if Dorn ever returns). If anything I’d say we should focus on an expansion of the sword brethren detachment, more lore on the Templars in this time, a primaris upgrade kits, and close combat primaris.

[Schlitzaf]

Honestly as much as it be flavorful, at this stage, we shouldn’t lose the sargeants. But Medj made a suggestion I think would work. Alongside seeing a return of Biker Crusaders. This rule would single handly I think fix our army in a lot of ways

 

“Any BLACK TEMPLAR unit that could take a Flamer, may take a Power Sword, Maul or Ax. Any BLACK TEMPLAR model armed with a Power Sword, Maul Or Ax May attack one additional time with that happen.”

[bolvar]

I understand the marines codex overbloat thing, but currently we have the following:

 

-Vanilla codex (which we're rolled in)

-BA

-SW

-DA

And for the sake of including it: Grey Knights and recently, but in lower order, Crimson Fists via White Dwarf IA

 

Of all the codex-divergent chapters, GK and BT are the most divergents, seconded by SW. BA and DA are codex-compliants, they maintain 10 companies each, and between those 2, DA are more divergent than BA (Deathwing and ravenwing)

 

If truly there is such issue, marines codex overbloat, and GW would work on fix it, the first thing they would do is roll both BA and DA, and CF WD-IA in the vanilla codex. Because they have far less differences with vanilla chapters than SW. And even SW should be rolled in, ours is the precedent that would allow it, leaving only GK as the other marine codex. (I don't mention BT because we're already rolled in)

 

Two different approaches for the same issue, either rolling everyone barring GK into one big, single SM codex, or have different codex for every non codex-compliant chapters. And even then, there should be 2 chapters with independent codex rolled in the big one (BA and DA).

 

That's why for me there isn't such issue as marine codex overbloat, because if that statement is true, BA and DA should have been in the vanilla codex instead of getting yet another new book, after the Index books at the start of 8th edition (that was the first time every power-armored, loyalist chapters were in a single book)

 

 

 

After my previous statements, I think we should have our own standalone codex. That, or get everyone except GK rolled in a single book.

 

There is a saying in my homeland that resumes this matter: O follamos todos o la puta al rio (literal translation: Either we all , or the whore goes to the river).

 

PS: I haven't anything against BA, DA, CF or SW players/chapters, but I have used them in this matter for obvious reasons.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

You forgot the Deathwatch.

[bolvar]

True, still, they could be rolled in -specially being the army with less options of all marine codex-, as their models are closer to vanilla marines than GK