Bringers of Dispair - how to make terminators work

[Brother Talarian]

That is a shame... though you can still do it with a large footslogging unit :)

 

The full movement, advance, warp time, and shoot is pretty wicked. You are then more than likely to be in threat range.

 

You can also drag an apostle with them as suggested to benefit from a -1 to hit, ad a sorc for choice of defensive spell as well.

[Brother Talarian]

I was also thinking, of termies are bass 26, 29 with cheap loadout, why wouldn’t we just have an army of termies instead of legionnaires?

 

ObSec? We can deny that, albeit for 3CP was it? :/.

But still... can run many termies alongside cultists. You essentially have a few moral immunities... hmmm

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Big squads of 10 are nice for benefiting from single unit buffs, but they also have the problem of morale. If your plan isn't to do a buffed up deathstar, but just have a strong, durable unit, then Alpha Legion is a good pick. 5 of them with some combination of combis and combi-plasma, chain axes, and maybe a chain fist on the champion. With the -1 to be hit, they are one of our most defensively efficient units.

 

Remember that against ap0, 2+ is twice as durable as 3+. And then they also have 2W. So that's 4x as durable as a regular marine. Now, that falls once AP is introduced. But they also have an invulnerable save which means they have 5++ vs overchaged plasma instead of a marines 6+. So even though the d2 plasma negates the multi wound advantage, the terminator is still twice a likely to survive the plasma as a regular marine. So at double the cost, they break even vs plasma, and are still twice as durable vs ap0 (and somewhere in between for amounts inbetween. AP-2 D2 weapons, regular marines are probably more efficient. AP 4 the terminator is better.)

 

So if we compare a terminator to 2 regular marines (roughly the same cost now), the terminator is 1-2x as durable in most circumstances, has the same number of attacks, and the same number of shots. But it can take the chainaxe, the most point efficient melee weapon in the game, it can deepstrike, it gets all its shots at 24" even if it moves (easily making up for 1" less movement), can take as many combi-weapons as they want, and don't run into morale problems as quickly (5 terminators don't have morale problems. The equivalent 10 marines does.) So as long as you've got some other obsec units, Terminators are a solid win on efficiency.

 

And then Alpha Legion trait makes plasma, one of the best options again terminators, a pretty bad deal since that -1 to hit makes plasma overheat on 2's, and most factions spamming it can only re-roll 1's. Or they have to get close enough that the terminators will get to charge them the next turn.

 

So Alpha Legion terminators overall look like a strong, efficienct mid-field unit that can move up to chop the shooties or manuever around to shoot the choppies. They are nasty enough in melee that even melee specialists aren't going to kill them there that efficiently, and shooty and durable enough that gunlines have to worry about them. The only big counter is mortal wounds spam, but those lists are much less common these days.

[MegaVolt87]

What about an Iron Warrior sorcerer lord in termi armour with Cold and bitter WL trait, flesh metal exo skelly to re-gen wounds, warptime away with a cheapy equipped termi unit? 

[Brother Aiwass]

It may be somewhat risky and impractical but what about 2x5 rotor havocs in a dreadclaw T2 to clean the chaff, then full termie squad with plasma or melta to kill juicy stuff?

[MegaVolt87]

It may be somewhat risky and impractical but what about 2x5 rotor havocs in a dreadclaw T2 to clean the chaff, then full termie squad with plasma or melta to kill juicy stuff?

 

Why not a termite drill for less points instead for the rotors? Also you get to pop up from underground and ruin the lawn. 

[Panzer]

Why deep strike the Havocs in the first place anyway? They can move&shoot without penalty and 24" is good enough to start from your deployment zone. If you want to protect them put them in a Rhino or Landraider. That way they can still disembark and shoot turn 1.

[Brother Aiwass]

 

It may be somewhat risky and impractical but what about 2x5 rotor havocs in a dreadclaw T2 to clean the chaff, then full termie squad with plasma or melta to kill juicy stuff?

 

Why not a termite drill for less points instead for the rotors? Also you get to pop up from underground and ruin the lawn. 

 

I thought the dreadclaws was cheaper?

 

Why deep strike the Havocs in the first place anyway? They can move&shoot without penalty and 24" is good enough to start from your deployment zone. If you want to protect them put them in a Rhino or Landraider. That way they can still disembark and shoot turn 1.

Because if i go second the rhino is not that difficult to blow up? Or that was my thinking anyway.

[Panzer]

 

 

It may be somewhat risky and impractical but what about 2x5 rotor havocs in a dreadclaw T2 to clean the chaff, then full termie squad with plasma or melta to kill juicy stuff?

 

Why not a termite drill for less points instead for the rotors? Also you get to pop up from underground and ruin the lawn. 

 

I thought the dreadclaws was cheaper?

 

Why deep strike the Havocs in the first place anyway? They can move&shoot without penalty and 24" is good enough to start from your deployment zone. If you want to protect them put them in a Rhino or Landraider. That way they can still disembark and shoot turn 1.

Because if i go second the rhino is not that difficult to blow up? Or that was my thinking anyway.

 

There's still terrain you can hide it behind and if all else fails Landraider are pretty tough at T8 Sv2+. ^^

[Sception]

The reason not to deep strike havocs if you're using them to clear chaff is that if they start on the table they can clear chatt turn one, allowing for turn one charges from daemon engines and thrn two deep strikes from host raptorials or plasminators.

 

If you deep strike the havocs, the soonest they can be clearing chaff is turn two, which means your daemon engine assault will have to eat an extra turn of shooting, which they may not survive, and your short range deep striking units wont be able to land within range of juicy targets until turn 3, by which point the game may effectively be over already.

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

It may be somewhat risky and impractical but what about 2x5 rotor havocs in a dreadclaw T2 to clean the chaff, then full termie squad with plasma or melta to kill juicy stuff?

 

Why not a termite drill for less points instead for the rotors? Also you get to pop up from underground and ruin the lawn. 

 

I thought the dreadclaws was cheaper?

 

 

No you are right, I was looking at the original points in the FW index book, not the amended ones in Chapter Approved 2018. The  original Dreadclaw poins, I mean WHAT ARE THOSE?! 

[Brother Aiwass]

The reason not to deep strike havocs if you're using them to clear chaff is that if they start on the table they can clear chatt turn one, allowing for turn one charges from daemon engines and thrn two deep strikes from host raptorials or plasminators.

 

If you deep strike the havocs, the soonest they can be clearing chaff is turn two, which means your daemon engine assault will have to eat an extra turn of shooting, which they may not survive, and your short range deep striking units wont be able to land within range of juicy targets until turn 3, by which point the game may effectively be over already.

But I'm not taking any daemon engines ;)

[Sception]

Are you taking deep striking terminators with melta or plasma that need to deep strike within 12" of a high value target on turn two in order to be effective?

 

And, if not, if your havocs are carrying rotor cannons and your terminators combi bolters, what are you fielding in your army to actually threaten hard targets, the kinds of units with the toughness and saves to shrug off anti-infantry weapons and the firepower to splatter your terminators if they're on the table at the same time?

 

If you're taking anti-chaff, it's generally because you have some short ranged and/or melee threats that want to get to the units behind that chaff. No matter how you slice it, no matter what your short ranged offensive threats are, waiting a whole turn before you even start clearing away those screens means giving the opponent an extra free turn before those threats can land, and in a game as saturated with heavy firepower as 40k, one extra free turn may be all they need.

 

Now, its entirely possible your anti heavy stuff doesnt need screens cleared first. Say you're fielding one or more renegade knights, or a bunch of obliterators, or what have you. And that's fine, in that case you arent in an urgent rush to clear bubble wraps and can happily reserve your anti-infantry tools for turn two, where they're less there to strip screens and more to sweep away objective campers.

 

But I'm not entirely sure what the bringers of despair are doing for you, then. If you're taking a bunch of combi-bolter terminators, do you even need rotor havocs? Maybe you should be fielding auto havocs or las havocs or obliterators instead. If you're bringing plas or melta terminators, or deep striking melee terminators, then you're back to needing chaff cleared turn one, before the rotor cannons arrive.

 

Melee terminators warp timing up the board with the intent to charge turn two, maybe? But with two rounds of firing their combi bolters before the assault... again, cant they clean their own chaff then?

 

 

Im not saying deep striking rotor cannons are bad at all. They're great, and much more reliable than hoping to deploy out of sight and still be able to move into firing range turn one. But im not sure what they're doing alongside the bringers of despair, where reliable turn two anti infantry is probably alreafy reasonably covered, while turn one anti infantry seems pretty critical.

[Brother Aiwass]

The thing is that I'm not taking combi bolters on termies, but either plasma or melta for big targets. I have a couple of dreads and a leviathan (to be assembled yet), 2 units of zerkers and lots of power armor infantry. I'm not sure on obliterators since the conversion I started (cataphracti chassis) was invalidated by the new models so I'm not having this. Also have one pred and I'm planning on a Xyphon or two. My thinking is that all of this will have enough threat saturation to allow me have 3 units in reserve without being tabled before.

And that was what drove me to the "not-so-awesome" plan of T2 havocs, T3 termies.

[Sception]

It's not about being tabled first, it's about whether you can strip the screens turn one, so that your terminators can land within 12" on turn two.  If you have enough other anti-chaff fire to do that without the havocs contributing on the first turn, then do you really need those havocs in the first place?

[Brother Aiwass]

It's not about being tabled first, it's about whether you can strip the screens turn one, so that your terminators can land within 12" on turn two.  If you have enough other anti-chaff fire to do that without the havocs contributing on the first turn, then do you really need those havocs in the first place?

Fun, maybe. Havocs aren't only anti-chaff; rotor cannons do better than auto cannon vs T7+ not taking in account VoTLW or Endless Cacophony. Anyway, I don't think we understand each other (mostly because english isn't my 1st language) and I don't want to derail the thread.

 

Cheers.

[Sception]

As long as they're doing something, and as long as you have something else that can strip screens turn one its fine.  It is entirely possible that I've over-focused on their exemplary anti-chaff abilities to the point of blinding myself to their other uses, especially with VotLW as you point out.  That said, once a squad of combi plas or melta terminators is landing, I imagine they're getting first dibs on cacophony.

[the emperor is scottish]

I know it's gw/warhammer community job to over sell units even if they are sub par but the lightning claw, icon of wrath equipped terminators backed by dp did sound pretty dope.

[Lord Asvaldir]

I don't find that appealing given warp talons would do that a lot better given they can have +2" to charge range, and would output the same amount of damage, not to mention being cheaper and more mobile after dropping in. The difference between a 9" rerollable charge and a 7" rerollable charge is pretty big. Plus I don't really think terminators should be giving up their ranged options, combi bolters is a nice cheap option for volume of shots, and combi plasma remains awesome as it always has. 

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I don't find that appealing given warp talons would do that a lot better given they can have +2" to charge range, and would output the same amount of damage, not to mention being cheaper and more mobile after dropping in. The difference between a 9" rerollable charge and a 7" rerollable charge is pretty big. Plus I don't really think terminators should be giving up their ranged options, combi bolters is a nice cheap option for volume of shots, and combi plasma remains awesome as it always has. 

 

Terminators have 1 more attack than warp talons, and a lot more durability. They'll do better as a single big deathstar unit with a lot of buffs, but yeah warp talons are better for deepstrike assault.

[Sception]

The talons can get +2 to charge from the host raptorial... but they cant take icon of wrath so that more or less balances out.

 

That said, termi shooting options are good. I could see dual claws on maybe the unit champ, but otherwise skipping out on the option for either high end guns like combi plas or cheap efficient guns like combi bolters & reaper autocannons in favor of a few extra melee attacks seems like a waste, at least imo.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I think power axes are just going to be more efficient per point most of the time. It's either chain axe or power axe, and maybe a chainfist on the damage to have some Damage.

[Brother Talarian]

What about a unit 50/50?

Half with LC half with ranged weapon?

 

Drop in, shoot, if you make the charge, great, if not, shoot again next turn and almost charge 100%

 

It might not be optimal but hey, that way you’re pretty reliable in both aspects. Combined with merciless killers and brutal subjugation you can put on the hurt.

[Wayniac]

Well, this just in.  The kit comes with 1 chainaxe, 1 chainfist, 1 power sword, 1 power axe, 1 power maul, 2 powerfists, 2 lightning claws, 1 heavy flamer, 1 reaper autocannon, 5 combi-weapons (one of each special type, 5 combi-bolters).

 

So once again, they give a kit with variety and not enough to even build a basic loadout out of the box.   

[Sception]

Dang. That's really kind of terrible selection. At least there are more combi bolters this time around, but yeesh.