Primaris Battle Company Structure

[Robbienw]

Yes, Boldthreat is correct, he said the different types of each armour are based on the same design, with heavier pieces and other parts added on the heavier the armour gets, but not that you could take parts off and it becomes the next lighter suit down. There are unique parts to each suit type, even between the same suit type in different unit roles.

 

Essentially there is a lot of commonality and the same base parts, but you cannot just take pieces off your tacticus armour and it becomes Phobos for example.

 

Some people seem to have got the wrong idea and assumed he was saying it was swappable between designs like taking Lego pieces off, but this is definitely not the case. He was quite clear about that.

[Panzer]

Jes Goodwin talked about how the three different armors were designed to look as if they're all layered on top of one another. So all Primaris are pretty much wearing the basic skeleton of the Phobos armor, but then layer extra plating over it depending on what role they are fulfilling. So Intercessors/Hellblasters in the Tacticus (I think that's what it's called) armor just have extra plates over Reivers, while Aggressors/Inceptors have even more armor plating. 

It's not 3 different suits of armor for the different roles. It's one suit that can be modified with additional armor plating depending on their deployment. 

 

Iirc that's just from a design perspective. Tacticus isn't just Phobos with more armour plates since the servos in the Phobos armour are a LOT more silent as well.

[Panzer]

Now correct me if I’m wrong... but didn’t Jes Goodwin kind of say that whilst the different types of Mark 10 are based off each other, it’s not necessarily the case that it’s the same suit with different plates and kit added on? That’s what I took away from his latest interview but I very well could be off. So I don’t necessarily believe that each marine has three separate suits of armor. I’ll buy that officers do. The Captain of the second company of the Ultramarines definitely does lol.

 

I miss the rigid structure of the traditional space marines if I’m honest. Whilst we don’t have much information on how a Primaris chapter organizes (hell we don’t even have the full picture yet of what they have or don’t), I think it’s safe to read that they are very ad hoc in how they operate. Which is not a bad thing and makes sense with elite super soldier commandos. But I think keeping to the 60, 20, 20 is a safe bet regardless of how you mix and match it. I would ideally keep them in 5 man teams further organized into 25 man units based on a particular role. So a Phobos element would be 3 5 man infiltrator squads, 1 reaver squad and 1 eliminator squad. That seems like a complete package and hopefully one day we can do the same with Gravis and Tacticus variants. But all that is baseless conjecture on my part.

 

And there is potentially more suits we don’t know about. Aren’t Suppressors in a new variation? So that is potentially another line of units. I’m still not giving up on Terminator plate either lol. I’d kill for a complete picture.

 

But the classic Space Marines had the same structure. They just had less different types of power armour they could equip themselves with. They only had the choice of regular, Jump Pack or Bike (later on Centurion as well I guess) and for the 1st Company veterans also Terminator armour.

 

Suppressors are half Gravis and half Tacticus plus extra systems like the grav-chutes and thrusters.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

 

Gotta agree with sfPanzer here. It doesn't matter that a Reiver is in Phobos armour, if they're designated as a Close Support squad, then they'll work as one of the various Close Support squads.

This is 100% what the fluff says. In case anyone needs a visual...

 

Intercessors can suit up as infiltrators

Hellblasters can armor up to aggressors, or down to exterminators

And I’m assuming suppesors can suit up to inceptors or down to reivers.

 

Does it make perfect sense? No, but that’s what GW said. Personally I see reivers as an elite option much like vanguard and sternguard.

It doesn't make ANY sense, because it requires each Primaris Marine to have 3 different suits of armor available to them at all times. It would make more sense for them to alter their battlefield role by taking different equipment, rather than changing their entire suit of armor. It would be far more efficient that way, and we know how Guilliman likes efficiency.

 

 

How is "getting a different suit of armour" any different from "getting a different weapon"? I could just as well argue that the previous method didn't make sense, as every Tactical Marine would have to have a Heavy Bolter, Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Plasma Cannon, Grav Cannon etc just lying around in case he's being deployed in his power armour as a Devastator today, instead of a standard Tactical Marine. He'd also have to have a jump pack sitting around in case he's an Assault Marine.

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

 

 

Gotta agree with sfPanzer here. It doesn't matter that a Reiver is in Phobos armour, if they're designated as a Close Support squad, then they'll work as one of the various Close Support squads.

This is 100% what the fluff says. In case anyone needs a visual...

 

Intercessors can suit up as infiltrators

Hellblasters can armor up to aggressors, or down to exterminators

And I’m assuming suppesors can suit up to inceptors or down to reivers.

 

Does it make perfect sense? No, but that’s what GW said. Personally I see reivers as an elite option much like vanguard and sternguard.

It doesn't make ANY sense, because it requires each Primaris Marine to have 3 different suits of armor available to them at all times. It would make more sense for them to alter their battlefield role by taking different equipment, rather than changing their entire suit of armor. It would be far more efficient that way, and we know how Guilliman likes efficiency.

How is "getting a different suit of armour" any different from "getting a different weapon"? I could just as well argue that the previous method didn't make sense, as every Tactical Marine would have to have a Heavy Bolter, Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Plasma Cannon, Grav Cannon etc just lying around in case he's being deployed in his power armour as a Devastator today, instead of a standard Tactical Marine. He'd also have to have a jump pack sitting around in case he's an Assault Marine.

Weapons don't need to be specially fitted to the Marine that is using them. A Marine's bolter is his, and is his responsibility to maintain. So are his chainsword or combat blade and bolt pistol. Unless the Marine in question normally serves as a Devastator any heavy weapons he is issued come from the Armory. One of each heavy weapon for every Marine in the Company isn't necessary.

 

Assuming the Chapter is mostly Codex compliant you would only need about 20 of each heavy weapon. 2 Devastator squads means you'd need 8 of each for them, plus 6 so each Tactical squad can take one, leaving 6 spares on hand.

 

Armor, however, is sized specifically for the Marine who wears it. Even though they are post human, they still have just as much variation between individuals as normal humans. Which means Brother Bob can't wear Brother Fred's armor because Brother Bob is 3 inches taller.

 

If each Marine sticks to his battlefield role, it requires a Phobos suit, a Tacticus suit, and a Gravus suit for each Marine. That's 300 suits of armor for 100 Marines, all being stored somewhere on a Strike Cruiser where we can safely assume space is at a premium.

 

It makes more sense for a given Marine to shift his battlefield role depending on the mission. A Reiver, Infiltrator, and Eliminator are all wearing basically the same armor. Makes more sense to tell Brother Bob he's deploying as an Infiltrator instead of a Reiver today than to keep 3 suits of armor on hand for him at all times.

 

Edit:

 

Furthermore, it makes sense to shift a Marine's battlefield role to others that utilize overlapping skillsets.

 

If I were a Captain, I'd want to keep my men in roles they've shown a particular aptitude for. Especially if my Chapter doesn't place a lot of emphasis on that skillet. For example, an Iron Hand that is skilled at being stealthy is less common than a stealthy Raven Guard. I would keep the guys that have a knack for being sneaky in roles that have them use that skill.

[Panzer]

I honestly don't know what to tell you. You might not like it but that's how it is regardless.

[Arkangilos]

Can you quote what it actually says then? Because I know in past BA codices it talked about how BA would flop between battlefield roles all the time, with line loving to switch into close support.

[Claws and Effect]

I honestly don't know what to tell you. You might not like it but that's how it is regardless.

It has little to do with whether I like it. I don't actually care all that much, to be honest.

 

 

It's more that their chosen structure is, logistically speaking, the least efficient way they could do it.

 

Which really makes me wonder how much of a "logistical genius" Guilliman really is. Assuming of course that he decided what the structure was going to be.

 

Edit;

 

It makes about as much sense as Primaris not being able to get into a Land Raider because they aren't trained to, even though Terminators (who are bulkier than them) have no problem with it. I know it's like that so GW could sell their new tank, but their logic is about as solid as rice paper.

[Boldthreat]

You are correct about the structure SFPanzer. It is the same structure. I worded or poorly presented my opinion. Being fluid and having options is a good thing, especially when considering a battle company only has 100 billets (typically) to accomplish its specific tasks.

 

And are we sure Suppressors are not a new type of variant? I thought, and I’m going off of memory of a video I watched a month or so ago, that in his last video Jes Goodwin mentioned suppressors being a new type. I’ll have to watch that video later when I get home to confirm it. I hope it is. How cool would it be to have a suit dedicated to deep strike capabilities and being able to move quickly across the battlefield. Who needs bikes, pods and the like when we have these guys... but I’m wishlisting here.

 

I’m going to make a guess here on Primaris organization... and it’s based on what has come before in regards to Chapter organization and what it appears to be on the horizon in regards to the different armor types and what that could mean for future models. It’s just a fun theory and is probably wrong, but here we go...

 

We know we have 4 suit types (yes I’m jumping the gun on the Suppressor theory). Phobos has all three tactical roles filled (but that doesn’t mean there won’t be more down the road. Tacticus armor has all but Fast Attack, and Gravis is lacking a Troop option. The suppressor type has Heavy Support filled and is missing a Troop and Fast Attack option. I believe the next few new releases will hopefully fill these vacancies. How and what they will do I don’t know. I also think there is another type of armor and it will be Terminator plate in various configurations.

 

Chapter organization:

 

1st Company - Veteran Company - Terminator Plate.

2nd - 5th Companies - Battle Companies - proficient in all armor variations and has the equipment to be fluid.

6th Company - Reserve Company - Tacticus Armor

7th Company - Reserve Company - Tacticus Armor

8th Company - Reserve Company - “Suppressor” Armor

9th Company - Reserve Company - Gravis Armor

10th Company - Reserve Company - Phobos Armor

 

In this theory, like before, your new initiates start in the 10th company and progress through the reserve companies gaining experience in the different armor types and roles as the marine moves up. By the time he hits the 6th or 7th companies he is fully trained in the use of all armor and ready to replace the losses in the Battle Companies. Now it makes sense that the Battle Companies are full of marines who can switch armor and roles proficiently. I would wager they do have multiple suits for the various tasks. They do the bulk of the fighting. 1st Company is all Terminator plate because I want Primaris terminators and surely Guilliman would want to ape the Deathwing. Your battle companies can buy veteran abilities with command points... let the 1st Company be all terminators.

 

Ok.. I got that out on my phone so forgive it being hastily thrown together. It’s a guess, it’s probably wrong but God was it fun to think about. Tear me apart now!

[Stoic Raptor]

I agree with Bluejay.  It could be as simple as replacing certain sections of armor with others.  Knowing as we do how a Marine suits up, the servitor might be able to equip him with a different breastplate or shoulders or what have you.  It's all bolted on to the same underlying structure - isn't that, after all, the entire point of Mk X having different configurations?

 

Certainly each Marine has an "MOS" of sorts, but I'd imagine they are all trained to take on other roles as needed.  Considering the decades or centuries of training and experience each Marine undergoes, the equipment is the least difficult part.  As for logistics?  Consider that the Imperium can deploy thousands of different Astra Militarum regiments to hundreds of worlds at the same time - to arm, equip and feed them, to fuel their craft - and then consider how much simpler it's got to be for a Chapter of 1000 to have the gear to outfit a soldier for whatever role he is currently needed in.

 

Veteran "regular" Marines already have two different suits of armor anyhow - a suit of Terminator armor and a suit of regular powered armor - so having the different components to tailor what is basically the Stoner System of armor to the needed role has got to be pretty easy.

[Claws and Effect]

My point on logistics had more to do with available storage space.

 

If MkX armor actually is modular and can be switched between different versions simply by putting on Phobos greaves instead of Tacticus greaves or by attaching heavier plates to Tacticus to make Gravis, then my point is largely moot.

[Panzer]

Considering how huge the halls even in space ships in 40k are I don't think they have much problem with storage space. Everything in 40k is gigantic.

MkX isn't modular. The layers are only from a design perspective and has nothing to do with fluff. The only modular part about MkX is that they can add extra systems like grav chutes, thrusters and so on (so basically the same as adding a Jump Pack for classic Marines).

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

 

 

 

Gotta agree with sfPanzer here. It doesn't matter that a Reiver is in Phobos armour, if they're designated as a Close Support squad, then they'll work as one of the various Close Support squads.

This is 100% what the fluff says. In case anyone needs a visual...

 

Intercessors can suit up as infiltrators

Hellblasters can armor up to aggressors, or down to exterminators

And I’m assuming suppesors can suit up to inceptors or down to reivers.

 

Does it make perfect sense? No, but that’s what GW said. Personally I see reivers as an elite option much like vanguard and sternguard.

It doesn't make ANY sense, because it requires each Primaris Marine to have 3 different suits of armor available to them at all times. It would make more sense for them to alter their battlefield role by taking different equipment, rather than changing their entire suit of armor. It would be far more efficient that way, and we know how Guilliman likes efficiency.

How is "getting a different suit of armour" any different from "getting a different weapon"? I could just as well argue that the previous method didn't make sense, as every Tactical Marine would have to have a Heavy Bolter, Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Plasma Cannon, Grav Cannon etc just lying around in case he's being deployed in his power armour as a Devastator today, instead of a standard Tactical Marine. He'd also have to have a jump pack sitting around in case he's an Assault Marine.

Weapons don't need to be specially fitted to the Marine that is using them. A Marine's bolter is his, and is his responsibility to maintain. So are his chainsword or combat blade and bolt pistol. Unless the Marine in question normally serves as a Devastator any heavy weapons he is issued come from the Armory. One of each heavy weapon for every Marine in the Company isn't necessary.

 

Assuming the Chapter is mostly Codex compliant you would only need about 20 of each heavy weapon. 2 Devastator squads means you'd need 8 of each for them, plus 6 so each Tactical squad can take one, leaving 6 spares on hand.

 

Armor, however, is sized specifically for the Marine who wears it. Even though they are post human, they still have just as much variation between individuals as normal humans. Which means Brother Bob can't wear Brother Fred's armor because Brother Bob is 3 inches taller.

 

If each Marine sticks to his battlefield role, it requires a Phobos suit, a Tacticus suit, and a Gravus suit for each Marine. That's 300 suits of armor for 100 Marines, all being stored somewhere on a Strike Cruiser where we can safely assume space is at a premium.

 

It makes more sense for a given Marine to shift his battlefield role depending on the mission. A Reiver, Infiltrator, and Eliminator are all wearing basically the same armor. Makes more sense to tell Brother Bob he's deploying as an Infiltrator instead of a Reiver today than to keep 3 suits of armor on hand for him at all times.

 

Edit:

 

Furthermore, it makes sense to shift a Marine's battlefield role to others that utilize overlapping skillsets.

 

If I were a Captain, I'd want to keep my men in roles they've shown a particular aptitude for. Especially if my Chapter doesn't place a lot of emphasis on that skillet. For example, an Iron Hand that is skilled at being stealthy is less common than a stealthy Raven Guard. I would keep the guys that have a knack for being sneaky in roles that have them use that skill.

 

 

In rebuttal, Terminator Armour.

 

In all fluff, a Chapter might have roughly 40 suits or so, which is distributed amongst the full Veteran Company and command elements of the Chapter as required. A Marine doesn't get "their" set of Terminator armour, other than maybe a shoulder plate they can attach to include their heraldry.

[Tamiel]

I'm starting to believe that the people in this thread have put more effort into thinking about the lore than the actual writers. You guys are bringing up a lot of good points that the lore team seems to have missed.

[Claws and Effect]

In rebuttal, Terminator Armour.

 

In all fluff, a Chapter might have roughly 40 suits or so, which is distributed amongst the full Veteran Company and command elements of the Chapter as required. A Marine doesn't get "their" set of Terminator armour, other than maybe a shoulder plate they can attach to include their heraldry.

On the contrary, once a Marine earns the right to wear Terminator armor and finishes the training on how to use it, the Terminator armor he is issued is worn by no one else until he dies. At which time the armor (if it is salvageable) is repaired and reconsecrated until the next Marine is elevated to the 1st Company and earns the right to it.

 

Terminator armor is a different case, because it's not armor that just anyone can wear.

 

Some Chapters even inscribe the name of all the previous Marines that have worn a given suit of armor, either on it somewhere or on the rack it sits on when not being worn.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Hmm, in that case, I stand corrected. 

 

Either way, it shows that changing the size of armour is possible. It's not like the Chapters are going "well, I'm sorry, Chapter Master, but we can't give you Terminator Armour. You're clearly a size 28, and the only suits we have available are in size 25 or 34. You're just going to have to wait until Brother Jim dies, then you can have his, as he was here first."

[Claws and Effect]

Hmm, in that case, I stand corrected.

 

Either way, it shows that changing the size of armour is possible. It's not like the Chapters are going "well, I'm sorry, Chapter Master, but we can't give you Terminator Armour. You're clearly a size 28, and the only suits we have available are in size 25 or 34. You're just going to have to wait until Brother Jim dies, then you can have his, as he was here first."

It's possible, but it isn't something you do between deployments. Changing the fit of a suit of armor is something that takes a Techmarine a significant amount of time.

 

Either way, we've gotten pretty far from the thread topic here and should probably make our way back to it.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I'd more say that it's just important to remember that just because a Company structure has potential configurations doesn't mean that a Chapter has to always have the capability for these at every moment of every deployment. The Companies may have a Codex-dictated number of each sort of Squad, but that doesn't mean that every squad has to have capabilities to fulfill every possible version of that squad type with them.

 

I'm very interested to see whether we'll shortly see a Gravis Company, or whatever they're going to be called.

[FlamingDeth]

Man, this whole discussion makes me happy I live in DIY land where the company structure is whatever the heck I want.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

And are we sure Suppressors are not a new type of variant? I thought, and I’m going off of memory of a video I watched a month or so ago, that in his last video Jes Goodwin mentioned suppressors being a new type. I’ll have to watch that video later when I get home to confirm it. I hope it is. How cool would it be to have a suit dedicated to deep strike capabilities and being able to move quickly across the battlefield. Who needs bikes, pods and the like when we have these guys... but I’m wishlisting here.

 

According to the mini-codex, Suppressors wear Omnis-pattern armor, which is described as "a blend of the heavier Gravis configuration and the lighter Mk X versions favoured by other Vanguard Space Marines units."

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Considering how huge the halls even in space ships in 40k are I don't think they have much problem with storage space. Everything in 40k is gigantic.

 

MkX isn't modular. The layers are only from a design perspective and has nothing to do with fluff. The only modular part about MkX is that they can add extra systems like grav chutes, thrusters and so on (so basically the same as adding a Jump Pack for classic Marines).

Funny, my interpretation of what Jes said was the direct opposite. What possible advantage can it have from a RL design perspective? GW don't mould them in a modular way. The legs for Reivers aren't just Intercessor legs without greaves.

 

I think it being fluff based makes much more sense. Each marine has a bodyglove which different components can be added to depending on role. That's why there's so much similarity, i.e. Inceptor legs are the same as Suppressor legs; reiver helmets are the same as Intercessor helmets, with a different faceplate.

[MajorNese]

Back to the structure, as I've been wondering about that lately:

To be entirely honest - as long as the primaris product line is nowhere near finished, the classic company structure won't be fully translated to primaris. What counts as a fully equipped company today might be rewritten when new troops or HS or FA get released. For example, the Vanguard booklet states that now every 10th company shall have 100 vanguard marines, chosen from the veterans - so, where do the scouts go, as the company is already at full capacity with the exact opposite of newbies?

 

Add to that the "squads of 3" (inceptors, aggressors, eliminators, centurions back in the day) and this creates quite a mess with odd squad member numbers, as well as (for example in C:SM) squads attached from other companies - the example company had 12 squads with 93 members (not including command). 3 Inceptors counted as full squad - do they magically get more members when switching their role to that of Reivers? So for my designation, I'm just counting the squads of 5 to 10 marines, or increase squads up to that level (3x3 eliminators + phobos captain = squad of 10).

[Panzer]

 

Considering how huge the halls even in space ships in 40k are I don't think they have much problem with storage space. Everything in 40k is gigantic.

 

MkX isn't modular. The layers are only from a design perspective and has nothing to do with fluff. The only modular part about MkX is that they can add extra systems like grav chutes, thrusters and so on (so basically the same as adding a Jump Pack for classic Marines).

Funny, my interpretation of what Jes said was the direct opposite. What possible advantage can it have from a RL design perspective? GW don't mould them in a modular way. The legs for Reivers aren't just Intercessor legs without greaves.

 

I think it being fluff based makes much more sense. Each marine has a bodyglove which different components can be added to depending on role. That's why there's so much similarity, i.e. Inceptor legs are the same as Suppressor legs; reiver helmets are the same as Intercessor helmets, with a different faceplate.

 

 

But fluff-wise Phobos isn't just Tacticus with less armour plates etc. It uses completely different servos which run much much quieter too for example.

 

 

Back to the structure, as I've been wondering about that lately:

To be entirely honest - as long as the primaris product line is nowhere near finished, the classic company structure won't be fully translated to primaris. What counts as a fully equipped company today might be rewritten when new troops or HS or FA get released. For example, the Vanguard booklet states that now every 10th company shall have 100 vanguard marines, chosen from the veterans - so, where do the scouts go, as the company is already at full capacity with the exact opposite of newbies?

 

Add to that the "squads of 3" (inceptors, aggressors, eliminators, centurions back in the day) and this creates quite a mess with odd squad member numbers, as well as (for example in C:SM) squads attached from other companies - the example company had 12 squads with 93 members (not including command). 3 Inceptors counted as full squad - do they magically get more members when switching their role to that of Reivers? So for my designation, I'm just counting the squads of 5 to 10 marines, or increase squads up to that level (3x3 eliminators + phobos captain = squad of 10).

 

The 10th company isn't size restricted. Scouts don't count towards the 1000 Marines a Chapter is allowed to have.

The squads of 3 is really an odd thing currently, I agree. I wouldn't say 3 count as full squad though. 5 are a half-squad so I'd say 3 of the new ones are only a half-squad too. It would make more sense if they had a unit size of 3-10 so 10 would still be a full sized squad and 3 would be whatever else you want to name it.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

 

Considering how huge the halls even in space ships in 40k are I don't think they have much problem with storage space. Everything in 40k is gigantic.

 

MkX isn't modular. The layers are only from a design perspective and has nothing to do with fluff. The only modular part about MkX is that they can add extra systems like grav chutes, thrusters and so on (so basically the same as adding a Jump Pack for classic Marines).

Funny, my interpretation of what Jes said was the direct opposite. What possible advantage can it have from a RL design perspective? GW don't mould them in a modular way. The legs for Reivers aren't just Intercessor legs without greaves.

 

I think it being fluff based makes much more sense. Each marine has a bodyglove which different components can be added to depending on role. That's why there's so much similarity, i.e. Inceptor legs are the same as Suppressor legs; reiver helmets are the same as Intercessor helmets, with a different faceplate.

 

 

But fluff-wise Phobos isn't just Tacticus with less armour plates etc. It uses completely different servos which run much much quieter too for example.

 

Which is why Jes specified that it's only partly modular, and a Marine can't just attach some plates and become an Aggressor, at least not easily.

 

As for the design process, I thought it was stated that they did sculpt them in layers (digitally, at least), partly so they can avoid the sorts of complaints about Terminators not being able to fit a normal human body shape.

[Malios]

People are looking too deeply into things I think. Applying logic based off real life experiences is counter-intuitive. Applying logic based off the tabletop is is also counter-intuitive because the lore isn't limited by the game's mechanics.

 

This is warhammer: we launch super humans into combat from orbit in rocket pods and travel between worlds via dimensions that defy space and time itself. We don't need to know all the answers: it just is. It really just is.

 

A battleline company has approx 100 marines: this number can vary based off attrition, attachments and detachments.

 

A battleline company is suggested by the codex to have 6 battleline elements, 2 close support elements and 2 fire support elements. As per Guiliman, its a book of guidelines with the company commander given discretion to alter the modus to suit the strategic need. Some chapters heavily alter it, some adhere to it.

 

That's all we need to know, lest we all be collecting ultramarines.