List of Rules Issues and Potental Issues With New CSM Rules

[Doom Herald]

I'm working on getting a list together of rules issues and other potential issues to send to GW, related to the new content. If we get enough people to request resolution to these issues we can hopefully get resolutions sooner rather than later.

 

Vigilus Ablaze

 

1) Dark Apostles:

The Artefacts of Chaos "The Black Mace" and "The Cursed Crozius" (Codex: CSM) were originally usable by Dark Apostles since they had a Power Maul. These Artefacts, especially "The Cursed Crozius" (which might warrant a name change) should allow models with an Acursed Crozius to use them. Alternatively, clarifying that a Dark Apostle may take a Power Maul instead of the Accursed Crozius since it could be taken in the Index (if non-optional wargear works this way) would solve this.

 

2) Skull Altar:

Has rules stating what happens if it is summoned by a Daemonic Ritual, yet lacks the Daemonic Ritual rule. Should it have Daemonic Ritual?

 

3) Specialist Dettachments:

Several Specialist Dettachments have the requirement that the dettachment have the same <LEGION> keyword, several do not. Are they all meant to? Are none meant to? Or do some have the <LEGION> requirement but not others for some reason?

 

4) Chiropteran Wings:

If Charge/Fly Beta rules go through such that this item becomes useless in the charge phase, allowing it to work in conjunction with Warp Time could provide a fair option for getting a second use per turn out of it.

 

5) Fallen Angels Sorcerers:

Can they summon Daemons if in an Imperium Army? Should they gain the "No-ones Puppet" rule from Cyphers datasheet? Further, half of the Dark Hereticus powers affect HERETIC ASTARTES units, a keyword FALLEN units lack. Should the description of these powers change so that when taken by a FALLEN Sorcerer HERETIC ASTARTES changes to FALLEN, FALLEN is added to HERETIC ASTARTES, or stay just HERETIC ASTARTES?

 

6) Mere Mortals:

Cultists recently had a point increase, prior to this rule. With this rule, cultists have reduced potency, a small point decrease might be considered.

 

10) Chosen of the Pantheon Strategem:

Do Psykers gain the KHORNE keyword? Should the text be changed to say "except that PSYKERS do not gain KHORNE," or is this an exception?

 

11) Black Legion & Renegade Rules

The "Using A Renegade Chapters Army In Warhammer 40,000" paragraph says the other rules apply if you have any Renegades Chapter Dettachments. Does this mean I can not have an army composed of a single HERETIC ASTARTES dettachment with, for example, RED CORSAIRS and NIGHT LORDS and use the RED CORSAIRS warlord trait, relic, and strategem since I don't have a whole Renegade dettachment? It would be no issue to have the same dettachment and use NIGHT LORDS special rules, so why restrict Renegades so? Strictly speaking, expanded BLACK LEGION rules have the same restriction, is this intended? BLACK LEGION has much more expansive rules in this book and already have rules in the Codex that don't have this restriction, so imposing a restriction on them might seem a little more reasonable, but clarification would still be nice.

 

The "Renegade Traits" states: "If your Chaos Space Marine army is taken from a Renegade Chapter..." Does this mean that Renegade Traits can only be taken if your whole army is Renegades? Black Legion rules from this book do NOT have this wording.

 

For clarity sake, perhaps it might be better to state something along the lines of "You may replace <LEGION> with RED CORSAIRS, CRIMSON SLAUGHTER, THE PURGE, THE SCOURGED, BRAZEN BEASTS, or FLAWLESS HOST. If you do, you may use these Warlord Traits, Relics [Artefacts of Chaos] Strategems, and Renegade [Legion] Traits in addition to those available in Codex: Chaos Space Marines."

 

Are the 4 warbands tied to gods intended to have the corresponding <MARK OF CHAOS>?

 

12) Crimson Slaughter:

The trait for Crimson Slaughter triggers when a Crimson Slaughter unit destroys an enemy unit. Presumably this means units destroyed by failed Morale do not trigger this ability. Is this the intent? The Warlord Trait for Crimson Slaughter is an aura that reduces enemy Ld. It seems counter-productive to pair these two together if a unit lost to Morale does not activate the Renegade Trait.

 

13) Lord Discordant:

Not being an Infantry, Biker, Daemon Prince, or Helbrute, he does not qualify for the use of Legion Traits. Is this intentional?

[Doom Herald]

^

In addition,

 

1) Terminators and Thunderhammers:

Are Thunderhammers intentionally omitted from the Terminator Melee Weapons List?

 

2) Obliterators Point Costs:

There mat be a copy/paste error.

 

3) Warlord Traits from Shadowspear:

Should the Warlord Traits from Shadowspear be included in the free Shadowspear rules download?

 

4) Fabius Bile and adding models to units:

Do units enhanced by Enhanced Warriors give their bonus to added models? For example, if the Grandfather's Blessings Strategem is used on such a unit, do the new models gain the enhancement?

 

5) Fabius Bile and "Chaos Space Marine" definition:

Fabius Bile lacks any of the keywords needed to be a "Chaos Space Marine" as defined in pg. 162 of Codex: CSM [2]. This adds issues to using army rules with him. Perhaps adding "or Fabius Bile," to the list of keywords should be done to fix this.

 

6) Summoning on First Turn:

Can Daemonic Ritual be used on turn 1?

 

7) Incursion Psychic Power:

Can this power be used to summon on turn 1?

Can this power be used to summon if the Psyker moved this turn?

[BrainFireBob]

#6 is a gripe, not a clarification question. #1 & #11 are huge, though. Firs post

[Kaldoth]

Another one: RAW, the Master of Posession's ability Rite of Possession affects him as well. Is this intentional? Reason being, the Noctilith Crown has the exact same ability and states specifically that chaos psykers are unaffected by it.

[Panzer]

4) Fabius Bile and adding models to units:

Do units enhanced by Enhanced Warriors retain their bonus if the Red Corsairs Strategem is used? Tide of traitors poses a similar issue. Also, do models added to a unit, such as by the Grandfather's Blessings Strategem gain the enhancement?

 

 

4) got already answered in a different FAQ. Units that get re-positioned by such an effect lose all their buffs and debuffs unfortunately.

Another one: RAW, the Master of Posession's ability Rite of Possession affects him as well. Is this intentional? Reason being, the Noctilith Crown has the exact same ability and states specifically that chaos psykers are unaffected by it.

 

The MoP ability says 'while they are within 12" of any enemy models with this ability', so unless your opponent is playing a MoP as well and they stare at eachother it's not an issue. ;)

[Annatar Giftbringer]

Another one: RAW, the Master of Posession's ability Rite of Possession affects him as well. Is this intentional? Reason being, the Noctilith Crown has the exact same ability and states specifically that chaos psykers are unaffected by it.

Only affects enemy models, so doesn’t affect himself.

[Closet Skeleton]

Are the 4 warbands tied to gods intended to have the corresponding <MARK OF CHAOS>?

 

 

I assume not, the renegade traits are intended to be used by custom warbands who might not follow the same god as the canonical one.

[Wayniac]

I really really hope #11 is intentional and you can't do Renegades without the entire army being renegades.

 

I already emailed them about that one so hopefully they clarify it in the FAQ because if it's intended then a lot of folks are going to have a rude awakening.

[Panzer]

I really hope not. It makes no sense that renegade warbands and chaos legions can't fight together when literally everything from the imperium and eldar can fight together. Not to mention that we've seen Black Legion with various Marines from the renegade warbands together on the same artwork for Vigilus Ablaze.

[Quixus]

Why do you hope that renegades can only stand alone?

[Mallios]

Why do you hope that renegades can only stand alone?

Especially when Abaddon landed on Vigilus specifically with renegade retainers within his army... That's basically the definition of "within the fluff."

[Deadass]

Yeah, renegade rules only being available if your whole army consists of renegades is stupid and would hinder people from constructing fluffy army lists.

 

On the subject of thunder hammers being only available to models in power armor: My guess is that it's a direct result of the Obsidius Mallex mini, just so it can be used the way it comes equipped.

[Quixus]

Yeah, renegade rules only being available if your whole army consists of renegades is stupid and would hinder people from constructing fluffy army lists.

 

On the subject of thunder hammers being only available to models in power armor: My guess is that it's a direct result of the Obsidius Mallex mini, just so it can be used the way it comes equipped.

AFAIK the new Chaos Terminators do not come with a thunder hammer, and we all know what happens to wargear that is not in the box....

[Wayniac]

Why do you hope that renegades can only stand alone?

Quite simply to end the "Heretical 17" nonsense to farm CP. for everyone who would do fluffy list there are the min-maxers who will take a red corsairs battalion with minimal guys just to get free 8cp.

[Deadass]

So what? I'd rather have the opportunity to run some renegades with Black Legion overseers than give it up just so people can't make their lists more powerful. If you don't like min-maxers, don't play against them. Besides, it's not like 3 additional CP are gonna break CSM as a faction.

 

 

Yeah, renegade rules only being available if your whole army consists of renegades is stupid and would hinder people from constructing fluffy army lists.

 

On the subject of thunder hammers being only available to models in power armor: My guess is that it's a direct result of the Obsidius Mallex mini, just so it can be used the way it comes equipped.

AFAIK the new Chaos Terminators do not come with a thunder hammer, and we all know what happens to wargear that is not in the box....

 

 

Yep, pretty much. It would've been the easiest thing to just throw a TH into the kit. Oh well, I guess we'll have to make due with power fists.

[Kraken]

Lord Discordant can't benefit from Legion Traits since he is not Infantry, Biker, Helbrute or Daemon Prince.

This feels like an oversight rather than an intended design.

[Quixus]

Quite simply to end the "Heretical 17" nonsense to farm CP. for everyone who would do fluffy list there are the min-maxers who will take a red corsairs battalion with minimal guys just to get free 8cp.

How is that "worse" than the Loyalist equivalent? It's not like the Red Corsairs can generate CP during play. Also it is not 8 CP only 5. The other three you get anyway for having a battle-forged army.

 

If you want to prohibit those lists, what about three knights at 1k points, or the typical tau gunline? The best way to discourage such "abuses" is to not play against them, not sweeping rules changes that have a lot of unintended consequences. I know GW likes to do those, but this should not be encouraged (e.g. smite nerf instead of MW nerf or nerfing the Fly rule in the charge phase instead of properly wording how Fly is supposed to work.)

[Panzer]

 

Why do you hope that renegades can only stand alone?

Quite simply to end the "Heretical 17" nonsense to farm CP. for everyone who would do fluffy list there are the min-maxers who will take a red corsairs battalion with minimal guys just to get free 8cp.

 

 

So you want the kind of heavy handed approach people often blame GW for? :huh:

Lord Discordant can't benefit from Legion Traits since he is not Infantry, Biker, Helbrute or Daemon Prince.

This feels like an oversight rather than an intended design.

 

They honestly should just get rid of that limitation. No other faction has it except for Marines and Custodes.

[Quixus]

They honestly should just get rid of that limitation. No other faction has it except for Marines and Custodes.

PREACH!

[Doom Herald]

 

 

4) Fabius Bile and adding models to units:

Do units enhanced by Enhanced Warriors retain their bonus if the Red Corsairs Strategem is used? Tide of traitors poses a similar issue. Also, do models added to a unit, such as by the Grandfather's Blessings Strategem gain the enhancement?

 

4) got already answered in a different FAQ. Units that get re-positioned by such an effect lose all their buffs and debuffs unfortunately.

On that #4, did they ever address rules such as Grandfather's Blessings which don't reposition the unit, but just add models?

 

Also, is that in the CSM FAQ, general rules FAQ, or another army FAQ?

[Doom Herald]

 

 

Are the 4 warbands tied to gods intended to have the corresponding <MARK OF CHAOS>?

 

I assume not, the renegade traits are intended to be used by custom warbands who might not follow the same god as the canonical one.

The rules for Warband Traits say if you have a Renegade warband not listed, you can use any Renegade trait you feel would best fit. This would mean you could use any of these traits without being that actual warband and therefore still make use of Renegade Traits without meeting the god requirement were there to be one. It does however not grant the Relic, Strategem, and Warlord Trait. It's just a matter of opinion, but I feel like this wouldn't be a bad thing, it would motivate a God themed dettachment to get full use, but still give players something if they don't want to.

[Quixus]

Except for orks and their red paint, I find paint jobs dictating rules a pretty silly design choice. You should be allowed to use whatever rules you like no matter the colours of the model, but you should adhere to all of them.

 

If you want to play Green Corsairs you should be allowed and should be allowed to use Count Sas'huron, stratagems and relics, but you shouldn't be allowed to field Abaddon in the same detachment, no matter what paint job the model has.

[Panzer]

Nobody was talking about paintjobs dictating rules right now though. It's fluff that the Flawless Host is dedicated to Slaanesh so if you play a Flawless Host detachment it should be restricted to Slaanesh and so on. Painting them differently is a completely different topic.

[Furnace Lord]

Is there anything stopping a MoP from using Sacrifice on a Lord Discordant...then healing the same Lord Discordant? It has both Warpsmith and Daemon Engine keywords and would flat out gain 2 wounds if so.

[Quixus]

I agree, if you play the flawless host (or another warband using those rules), the units should have the mark of Slaanesh if possible and no other mark. What I do not like is that when you want to use the rules for Huron or any other legion/warband specific unit your warband has to have correct legion/warband keyword (and probably the appropriate paintjob too) and cannot have another. Counts as is officially dead in this edition.