List of Rules Issues and Potental Issues With New CSM Rules

[Panzer]

Only on big tournaments. Most people still do counts as just fine. It only really becomes a problem if you use models that are obviously from one legion/chapter and use them as another but only really because at that point it's getting confusing for the opponent.

[Prot]

I guess with all the debate it’s still worth asking if a master of Possessed can really advance and ( not standing still) and summon in turn one of the Psychic phase.

[Doom Herald]

I guess with all the debate it’s still worth asking if a master of Possessed can really advance and ( not standing still) and summon in turn one of the Psychic phase.

You mean because the rule that you can summon instead of moving?

 

Edit:

I get what you're saying. It's whether daemons can cone in on turn 1 since they are not "set up" off the battlefield.

 

Both questions have been added to the list.

[Cheex]

 

I guess with all the debate it’s still worth asking if a master of Possessed can really advance and ( not standing still) and summon in turn one of the Psychic phase.

You mean because the rule that you can summon instead of moving?

 

Edit:

I get what you're saying. It's whether daemons can cone in on turn 1 since they are not "set up" off the battlefield.

 

Both questions have been added to the list.

 

 

It's less about the Turn 1 limitation (summoning is absolutely not affected by this) and more about whether you can even use the Incursion psychic power after moving. I believe you can, though the argument would be hard to explain during a tournament, so would like to see an official FAQ on it.

[Guzzlrr]

The wording of Abaddons new aura alows him to reroll all hit rolls not just failed, I hope that isn't on the FAQ had some fun with that

 

Abaddon with 6 + d6 attacks and DTFE ON 5+ IF you reroll all everything that isn't a 5+ I've seen anything from 16-20 odd attacks

[Doom Herald]

The wording of Abaddons new aura alows him to reroll all hit rolls not just failed, I hope that isn't on the FAQ had some fun with that

 

Abaddon with 6 + d6 attacks and DTFE ON 5+ IF you reroll all everything that isn't a 5+ I've seen anything from 16-20 odd attacks

Given their tendency to coppy/paste I would think it's intentional.

[Wayniac]

I agree, if you play the flawless host (or another warband using those rules), the units should have the mark of Slaanesh if possible and no other mark. What I do not like is that when you want to use the rules for Huron or any other legion/warband specific unit your warband has to have correct legion/warband keyword (and probably the appropriate paintjob too) and cannot have another. Counts as is officially dead in this edition.

Honestly, and I know this is an unpopular opinion, I'm fine with that.  For 20+ years it has rubbed me the wrong way to have someone fielding special characters who aren't that character.  I get like painting your own warband and using rules of an existing one, but I've always hated seeing someone field a converted Abaddon but he's really Supreme Lord Doomguy and you're using Abaddon's rules to represent him.

 

I get that you are more limited now that they took away a lot of the customization options (another thing I really miss from the old days) but that's always felt incredibly wrong to me.  Not wrong enough that I'd refuse to play someone who did it, but wrong enough that I'd feel like they weren't playing in the spirit of the game (which is all but dead now yet I remember it from the days of old).

[Larkyn]

 

Quite simply to end the "Heretical 17" nonsense to farm CP. for everyone who would do fluffy list there are the min-maxers who will take a red corsairs battalion with minimal guys just to get free 8cp.

Also it is not 8 CP only 5. The other three you get anyway for having a battle-forged army.

 

 

How is it not 8? Battalion grants 5, the renegade trait, as seen on the GW community page and in Vigilus Ablaze:

 

5 + 3 = 8.

[Sception]

I don't have any hope of it actually happening, but it would be nice if the Black Legion stratagem "Chosen of the Pantheon" from vigilus could be applied at the end of the movement phase instead of the start of the player turn; or else if it got a note specifying that it could be used on units not currently on the table.  That way it could be used on a unit of terminators arriving via teleportation, which feels like it would be super fluffy, especially for a terminator bodyguard unit for Abaddon himself, but currently can't be used that way due to timing issues.

 

Again, I don't have any hope for it, but still, the fact that you /can't/ use chosen of the pantheon on a termi bodyguard for abby, at least not on the turn they teleport in, is just kind of sad and frustrating.

[Sception]

The wording of Abaddons new aura alows him to reroll all hit rolls not just failed, I hope that isn't on the FAQ had some fun with that

 

Abaddon with 6 + d6 attacks and DTFE ON 5+ IF you reroll all everything that isn't a 5+ I've seen anything from 16-20 odd attacks

 

Bring along a termie sorc to cast prescience to get those DTFE on 4+, and be sure to leave a command point reroll free to keep drach'nyen in line.

 

Heck, if Abby's bringing friends, might as well toss in a termie lord sidekick with the Bringers of Despair relic axe.  Only 4 attacks base, but he brings his own built in +1 to hit vs imperials, so as long as he's within range of abby he also gets DTFE on 4+ with full rerolls, so he'll tend to put out around 7 hits vs imperial units.

 

 

Sure the whole pile loses a lot of strength when not fighting imperials.  But I guess that's still kind of fluffy - fitting the common campaign pattern of Abaddon smashing imperial faces left and right... until the Eldar butt in to throw off the Warmaster's groove.

[Panzer]

 

 

Quite simply to end the "Heretical 17" nonsense to farm CP. for everyone who would do fluffy list there are the min-maxers who will take a red corsairs battalion with minimal guys just to get free 8cp.

Also it is not 8 CP only 5. The other three you get anyway for having a battle-forged army.

 

 

How is it not 8? Battalion grants 5, the renegade trait, as seen on the GW community page and in Vigilus Ablaze:

 

5 + 3 = 8.

 

 

Well I don't agree with his calculation because he thought about the battle-forged bonus, but I go with a similar approach and say it's really only just 3CP you get from that. Why? Because you'd get the 5 from ANY battalion already anyway and that's nothing Red Corsairs specific. The trait literally says you get 3CP, not 8CP. ^^

[Larkyn]

I'm confused. "Increased by 3 Command Points" is saying you only get 3 cp's? If you took a patrol detachment, you'd be correct.

[Panzer]

I'm confused. "Increased by 3 Command Points" is saying you only get 3 cp's? If you took a patrol detachment, you'd be correct.

 

Only 3CPs compared to other Battalions. You get the 5 regardless of whether it's Red Corsairs or not so counting them towards the benefits of a Red Corsairs Battalion is not fair.

[Larkyn]

Ah, I see what you meant now. Still, the difference between 5 cp's and 8 cp's is pretty nice. Include Huron as your warlord, and get another one as well.

 

As much as I'm on the fence about the Loyal 32 and Heretical 17, and all of the other cp farming detachments, it's nice that Chaos has one now, means they can compete with Imperial armies in terms of strat usage.

[Sception]

The red coursairs stuff is super nice, and I *do* have a counts-as Huron conversion I really like sitting around.  I've been strongly considering re-imagining my homebrew Black Legion warband as a homebrew renegade warband using red corsairs rules that just happens to work closely with the Black Legion.

[Panzer]

Yeah I'm not saying a Red Corsairs detachment is bad at all. Especially the Stratagem is awesome. Just that the actual bonus CP it gives your army are 3, not 8.

[Doom Herald]

I just sent the list in to GW. If any more come up, I will gladly send them individually and add them to the list on the board.

 

Again, I encourage others to send the GW rules team these questions. An FAQ is likely coming soon, so the sooner the questions are sent the better.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Since they updated the Codex Datasheet, let's ask this one again:

 

"A unit of Rubric Marines has the PSYKER keyword, per the datasheet. Who takes the Mortal Wounds when the Aspiring Sorcerer suffers Perils of the Warp? The Sorcerer, or the Unit (allocated by the controlling player)? If the Sorcerer, he will instantly die. In that case, does his own unit take damage from the explosion as well?

 

Other units with the PSYKER keyword specify what happens in their rules text when Perils is suffered. Usually, the unit simply takes the mortal wounds and there is only an explosion if this destroys the unit. However, the Rubric Marines datasheet has no such text. Furthermore, the Aspiring Sorcerer is the only one in the unit who can cast and some believe that therefore he is the only PSYKER and the Perils rules apply only to him.

 

Please clarify."

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

One more. 

 

"How do units of Fallen interact with the Beta Bolter Discipline rule? Fallen have neither HERETIC ASTARTES nor ADEPTUS ASTARTES as keywords. Therefore, rules as written, they cannot use it. Was this intentional?"

[Kraken]

Since they updated the Codex Datasheet, let's ask this one again:

 

"A unit of Rubric Marines has the PSYKER keyword, per the datasheet. Who takes the Mortal Wounds when the Aspiring Sorcerer suffers Perils of the Warp? The Sorcerer, or the Unit (allocated by the controlling player)? If the Sorcerer, he will instantly die. In that case, does his own unit take damage from the explosion as well?

 

Other units with the PSYKER keyword specify what happens in their rules text when Perils is suffered. Usually, the unit simply takes the mortal wounds and there is only an explosion if this destroys the unit. However, the Rubric Marines datasheet has no such text. Furthermore, the Aspiring Sorcerer is the only one in the unit who can cast and some believe that therefore he is the only PSYKER and the Perils rules apply only to him.

 

Please clarify."

The Aspiring Sorcerer is the one in the unit being a Psyker, so it should be the one suffering from the peril.

This is also pointed at by the fact the Psyker section of the datasheet only reference the Aspiring Sorcerer and not the unit.

[Gederas]

Since they updated the Codex Datasheet, let's ask this one again:

 

"A unit of Rubric Marines has the PSYKER keyword, per the datasheet. Who takes the Mortal Wounds when the Aspiring Sorcerer suffers Perils of the Warp? The Sorcerer, or the Unit (allocated by the controlling player)? If the Sorcerer, he will instantly die. In that case, does his own unit take damage from the explosion as well?

 

Other units with the PSYKER keyword specify what happens in their rules text when Perils is suffered. Usually, the unit simply takes the mortal wounds and there is only an explosion if this destroys the unit. However, the Rubric Marines datasheet has no such text. Furthermore, the Aspiring Sorcerer is the only one in the unit who can cast and some believe that therefore he is the only PSYKER and the Perils rules apply only to him.

 

Please clarify."

The Aspiring Sorcerer is the one in the unit being a Psyker, so it should be the one suffering from the peril.

This is also pointed at by the fact the Psyker section of the datasheet only reference the Aspiring Sorcerer and not the unit.

This is clearly a RaW v RaI case.

 

Rules as Intended, the Aspiring Sorcerer, being the only Psyker, would be the one taking the Mortal Wounds from Perils of the Warp.

 

Rules as Written though, Perils of the Warp says that the UNIT takes the Mortal Wounds. And since there's more than one model in the UNIT of Rubric Marines aside from the Aspiring Sorcerer.....

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

Since they updated the Codex Datasheet, let's ask this one again:

 

"A unit of Rubric Marines has the PSYKER keyword, per the datasheet. Who takes the Mortal Wounds when the Aspiring Sorcerer suffers Perils of the Warp? The Sorcerer, or the Unit (allocated by the controlling player)? If the Sorcerer, he will instantly die. In that case, does his own unit take damage from the explosion as well?

 

Other units with the PSYKER keyword specify what happens in their rules text when Perils is suffered. Usually, the unit simply takes the mortal wounds and there is only an explosion if this destroys the unit. However, the Rubric Marines datasheet has no such text. Furthermore, the Aspiring Sorcerer is the only one in the unit who can cast and some believe that therefore he is the only PSYKER and the Perils rules apply only to him.

 

Please clarify."

The Aspiring Sorcerer is the one in the unit being a Psyker, so it should be the one suffering from the peril.

This is also pointed at by the fact the Psyker section of the datasheet only reference the Aspiring Sorcerer and not the unit.

 

The entire unit has the PSYKER keyword. Other datasheets where only one model has a given keyword usually mention that fact (Ork Mek Gunz, for example). This doesn't. It's been an open question since the first Codex CSM, and the Thousand Sons Codex and is still unanswered.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

Since they updated the Codex Datasheet, let's ask this one again:

 

"A unit of Rubric Marines has the PSYKER keyword, per the datasheet. Who takes the Mortal Wounds when the Aspiring Sorcerer suffers Perils of the Warp? The Sorcerer, or the Unit (allocated by the controlling player)? If the Sorcerer, he will instantly die. In that case, does his own unit take damage from the explosion as well?

 

Other units with the PSYKER keyword specify what happens in their rules text when Perils is suffered. Usually, the unit simply takes the mortal wounds and there is only an explosion if this destroys the unit. However, the Rubric Marines datasheet has no such text. Furthermore, the Aspiring Sorcerer is the only one in the unit who can cast and some believe that therefore he is the only PSYKER and the Perils rules apply only to him.

 

Please clarify."

The Aspiring Sorcerer is the one in the unit being a Psyker, so it should be the one suffering from the peril.

This is also pointed at by the fact the Psyker section of the datasheet only reference the Aspiring Sorcerer and not the unit.

This is clearly a RaW v RaI case.

 

Rules as Intended, the Aspiring Sorcerer, being the only Psyker, would be the one taking the Mortal Wounds from Perils of the Warp.

 

Rules as Written though, Perils of the Warp says that the UNIT takes the Mortal Wounds. And since there's more than one model in the UNIT of Rubric Marines aside from the Aspiring Sorcerer.....

 

 

Correct. This is why we'd be asking for clarification. If the Aspiring is indeed the only Psyker, then his unit might be taking D3+1 mortal wounds, at least, from Perils since he dies and it's caught in the radius, which doesn't sound right. In fact, since Mortal Wounds flow over within a unit, there's an argument that if you roll a 6 on the damage die, the Sorcerer would blow up, 2 more Rubrics would be killed, and then because he died and there's no "only explode if the last model in the unit dies" clause on the datasheet like there is with other psyker squads, then you'd have a FURTHER D3 done to units within the radius, including the Rubric unit again because they're not the Psyker in question.

 

It's messy and those folks who use Rubric Marines would like to put an end to the discussion with a definitive ruling.

[Kraken]

 

 

Since they updated the Codex Datasheet, let's ask this one again:

 

"A unit of Rubric Marines has the PSYKER keyword, per the datasheet. Who takes the Mortal Wounds when the Aspiring Sorcerer suffers Perils of the Warp? The Sorcerer, or the Unit (allocated by the controlling player)? If the Sorcerer, he will instantly die. In that case, does his own unit take damage from the explosion as well?

 

Other units with the PSYKER keyword specify what happens in their rules text when Perils is suffered. Usually, the unit simply takes the mortal wounds and there is only an explosion if this destroys the unit. However, the Rubric Marines datasheet has no such text. Furthermore, the Aspiring Sorcerer is the only one in the unit who can cast and some believe that therefore he is the only PSYKER and the Perils rules apply only to him.

 

Please clarify."

The Aspiring Sorcerer is the one in the unit being a Psyker, so it should be the one suffering from the peril.

This is also pointed at by the fact the Psyker section of the datasheet only reference the Aspiring Sorcerer and not the unit.

This is clearly a RaW v RaI case.

 

Rules as Intended, the Aspiring Sorcerer, being the only Psyker, would be the one taking the Mortal Wounds from Perils of the Warp.

 

Rules as Written though, Perils of the Warp says that the UNIT takes the Mortal Wounds. And since there's more than one model in the UNIT of Rubric Marines aside from the Aspiring Sorcerer.....

 

 

Correct. This is why we'd be asking for clarification. If the Aspiring is indeed the only Psyker, then his unit might be taking D3+1 mortal wounds, at least, from Perils since he dies and it's caught in the radius, which doesn't sound right. In fact, since Mortal Wounds flow over within a unit, there's an argument that if you roll a 6 on the damage die, the Sorcerer would blow up, 2 more Rubrics would be killed, and then because he died and there's no "only explode if the last model in the unit dies" clause on the datasheet like there is with other psyker squads, then you'd have a FURTHER D3 done to units within the radius, including the Rubric unit again because they're not the Psyker in question.

 

It's messy and those folks who use Rubric Marines would like to put an end to the discussion with a definitive ruling.

 

Fair enough. You both make good points.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

It has come to my attention that the Scourged legion trait is ambiguous.  Basically, the trait allows "a model" in a "unit with this trait" to reroll one die in each time "it" shootis or fights - it is ambiguous as to whether "a model" means "each model" or "1 model".  So, when a Scourged unit of infantry fires, does each model get 1 reroll (which requires you to keep track of which models have already used), or does only 1 model get a reroll?