The Siege of Terra: The Lost and the Damned

[Lex D'Arquebus]

  On 7/19/2019 at 4:27 PM, Indefragable said:

 

  On 7/19/2019 at 6:17 AM, b1soul said:

Are the loyalists aware that

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Russ the Executioner could have slain Horus the Arch-Traitor with the Dionysian Spear, but couldn't bring himself to do it?

 

This would not sit well with many

 

Yea. That would be an interesting note.

 

Glad to hear that Raldoron (finally) gets some proper attention in this one.

 

How about Sanguinius? Any good moments? (don't need exact spoilers, per se) I'd be curious if it's yet another book where he's on the cover yet has like 5% of the page count.

Does he finally start feeling like a bad- -er?

 

 

Sanguinius certainly does have a number of good moments. They're not limited to combat either with some nice pieces of him reflecting on things. Him and the Khan both have the main share of the Loyalist Primarch story attention. His story pieces underscore him as an exemplar of what a good place the Imperium could be.

 

 

  On 7/19/2019 at 6:17 AM, b1soul said:

Are the loyalists aware that

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Russ the Executioner could have slain Horus the Arch-Traitor with the Dionysian Spear, but couldn't bring himself to do it?

 

This would not sit well with many

 

 

 

  On 7/19/2019 at 4:43 PM, Kelborn said:

I don't think (please correct me if I'm wrong as I haven't read everything) that

 

  Reveal hidden contents

the loyalists are aware of Russ' chance. How should they know? Russ and Corax are on the other side of the frontlines. Was there an exchange between those split forces, I'm not aware of?

As of now, they could think that Russ failed. How else would Horus be there to lead the assault?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Correct. They know of Horus collasped at Beta Garmon due to the head of the Legio Solara witnessing it and telling Sanginius about it, the loyalists then extrapolate logically that Russ may have wounded him.

 

  On 7/19/2019 at 3:35 PM, Knockagh said:

 

  On 7/17/2019 at 5:02 PM, Sandlemad said:

Weirdly folks on some of the other forums are furious that so much focus is on the conscripts. "We spent so long getting the primarchs to terra and I have to read about mortals", etc, etc, which is something I don't get. We have six more books of marine on marine action, I want to see Terran hab-dwellers with lasguns, quaking with fear and trying to turn back inevitability. This sounds cool.

 

How are the fighter pilot sections? Are they prominent?

Bonkers that anyone would complain about not enough marine action in 30k fiction.

 

 

I agree, that being said perhaps they feel annoyed that this book does little to move the storylines of prominent Astartes who are present at the siege? In a series where there is a finite number of books maybe they're concerned that their favourite Astartes charcter will not get their time to shine? Again I'd ask how many have actually read the book.

[Lex D'Arquebus]

  On 7/19/2019 at 5:47 PM, RedFurioso said:

Guy Haley explains why Dorn was suprised when heard about Vulkan

https://twitter.com/GuyHaley/status/1152165921382907906

 Thanks for sharing this.

 

Having re read the passge a couple of times now I guess this explanation could work. It does make me question why Dorn is playing it cool though?

 

I'm not sure I'm convinced

 

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One of the preceding discussions to the Vulkan reveal revolves arround people keeping secrets from each other, specifically the Emperor withholding info about the true nature of the Warp from all but one of the Primarchs (Malcador says one Primarch was able to resist the whispers of the Warp at the start and only he was told). 

 

Dorn is of a mind that more knowledge and information shared is better for strategy. Malcador counters with the arguement of that knowledge of the warp would lead to corruption as the Primarchs are not infalable, they could perhaps resist initially but eventually they would fall. This point is perhaps illustarted again a little later where Dorn fails to see the importance/power of symbolism (specifically the Lion destroying the traitor's homeworlds)?

 

However, Dorn himself is not averse to secrets when he doesn't disclose the killing of Alpharius at his hands.

 

Perhaps it was Haley's intent to highlight hypocrosy in the Loyalists? The "playing it cool by Dorn with regard to Vulkan would illustrating it again (un-needed IMHO).Also Dorn himself states that Vulkan is dead.

 

However none of the language used to decribe Dorns reaction indicates him playing it cool 

 

"I'm Sorry?" "Where is he? Is he coming here?" "What?" he said the colour draining from his face "What?" eager to show he knew at least something

 

The above are Dorn's exact word and reactions, doesn't strike me as particularly cool...

 

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2019 by Lex D'Arquebus

[rookie40K]

  On 7/19/2019 at 5:48 PM, Lex D'Arquebus said:

 

  On 7/19/2019 at 4:27 PM, Indefragable said:

 

 

  On 7/19/2019 at 6:17 AM, b1soul said:

 

Are the loyalists aware that

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Russ the Executioner could have slain Horus the Arch-Traitor with the Dionysian Spear, but couldn't bring himself to do it?

 

This would not sit well with many

Yea. That would be an interesting note.

 

Glad to hear that Raldoron (finally) gets some proper attention in this one.

 

How about Sanguinius? Any good moments? (don't need exact spoilers, per se) I'd be curious if it's yet another book where he's on the cover yet has like 5% of the page count.

Does he finally start feeling like a bad- -er?

Sanguinius certainly does have a number of good moments. They're not limited to combat either with some nice pieces of him reflecting on things. Him and the Khan both have the main share of the Loyalist Primarch story attention. His story pieces underscore him as an exemplar of what a good place the Imperium could be.

 

  On 7/19/2019 at 6:17 AM, b1soul said:

Are the loyalists aware that

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Russ the Executioner could have slain Horus the Arch-Traitor with the Dionysian Spear, but couldn't bring himself to do it?

 

This would not sit well with many

 

  On 7/19/2019 at 4:43 PM, Kelborn said:

I don't think (please correct me if I'm wrong as I haven't read everything) that

 

  Reveal hidden contents

the loyalists are aware of Russ' chance. How should they know? Russ and Corax are on the other side of the frontlines. Was there an exchange between those split forces, I'm not aware of?

As of now, they could think that Russ failed. How else would Horus be there to lead the assault?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Correct. They know of Horus collasped at Beta Garmon due to the head of the Legio Solara witnessing it and telling Sanginius about it, the loyalists then extrapolate logically that Russ may have wounded him.

  On 7/19/2019 at 3:35 PM, Knockagh said:

 

  On 7/17/2019 at 5:02 PM, Sandlemad said:

Weirdly folks on some of the other forums are furious that so much focus is on the conscripts. "We spent so long getting the primarchs to terra and I have to read about mortals", etc, etc, which is something I don't get. We have six more books of marine on marine action, I want to see Terran hab-dwellers with lasguns, quaking with fear and trying to turn back inevitability. This sounds cool.

 

How are the fighter pilot sections? Are they prominent?

Bonkers that anyone would complain about not enough marine action in 30k fiction.

I agree, that being said perhaps they feel annoyed that this book does little to move the storylines of prominent Astartes who are present at the siege? In a series where there is a finite number of books maybe they're concerned that their favourite Astartes charcter will not get their time to shine? Again I'd ask how many have actually read the book.

I personally don’t want to hear very much about any mortals in this particular series unless it is significant to the big picture. This story is the platform of the Emperor against Chaos and the tools they use to fight. The main tools are Primarchs and significant named daemons. Secondary are significant named historical marine characters and Malcador. I acknowledge humans are huge in numbers and what are being fought for, but it’s not the story I want very many pages devoted to during the last stages of the confrontation. I personally wish the Heresy series dedicated more time to big characters than it did. Just my opinion.

[Lex D'Arquebus]

  On 7/19/2019 at 6:53 PM, rookie40K said:

 

  On 7/19/2019 at 5:48 PM, Lex D'Arquebus said:

 

  On 7/19/2019 at 4:27 PM, Indefragable said:

 

  On 7/19/2019 at 6:17 AM, b1soul said:

Are the loyalists aware that

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Russ the Executioner could have slain Horus the Arch-Traitor with the Dionysian Spear, but couldn't bring himself to do it?

 

This would not sit well with many

Yea. That would be an interesting note.

 

Glad to hear that Raldoron (finally) gets some proper attention in this one.

 

How about Sanguinius? Any good moments? (don't need exact spoilers, per se) I'd be curious if it's yet another book where he's on the cover yet has like 5% of the page count.

Does he finally start feeling like a bad- -er?

Sanguinius certainly does have a number of good moments. They're not limited to combat either with some nice pieces of him reflecting on things. Him and the Khan both have the main share of the Loyalist Primarch story attention. His story pieces underscore him as an exemplar of what a good place the Imperium could be.

 

  On 7/19/2019 at 6:17 AM, b1soul said:

Are the loyalists aware that

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Russ the Executioner could have slain Horus the Arch-Traitor with the Dionysian Spear, but couldn't bring himself to do it?

 

This would not sit well with many

 

  On 7/19/2019 at 4:43 PM, Kelborn said:

I don't think (please correct me if I'm wrong as I haven't read everything) that

 

  Reveal hidden contents

the loyalists are aware of Russ' chance. How should they know? Russ and Corax are on the other side of the frontlines. Was there an exchange between those split forces, I'm not aware of?

As of now, they could think that Russ failed. How else would Horus be there to lead the assault?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Correct. They know of Horus collasped at Beta Garmon due to the head of the Legio Solara witnessing it and telling Sanginius about it, the loyalists then extrapolate logically that Russ may have wounded him.

  On 7/19/2019 at 3:35 PM, Knockagh said:

 

  On 7/17/2019 at 5:02 PM, Sandlemad said:

Weirdly folks on some of the other forums are furious that so much focus is on the conscripts. "We spent so long getting the primarchs to terra and I have to read about mortals", etc, etc, which is something I don't get. We have six more books of marine on marine action, I want to see Terran hab-dwellers with lasguns, quaking with fear and trying to turn back inevitability. This sounds cool.

 

How are the fighter pilot sections? Are they prominent?

Bonkers that anyone would complain about not enough marine action in 30k fiction.

I agree, that being said perhaps they feel annoyed that this book does little to move the storylines of prominent Astartes who are present at the siege? In a series where there is a finite number of books maybe they're concerned that their favourite Astartes charcter will not get their time to shine? Again I'd ask how many have actually read the book.

I personally don’t want to hear very much about any mortals in this particular series unless it is significant to the big picture. This story is the platform of the Emperor against Chaos and the tools they use to fight. The main tools are Primarchs and significant named daemons. Secondary are significant named historical marine characters and Malcador. I acknowledge humans are huge in numbers and what are being fought for, but it’s not the story I want very many pages devoted to during the last stages of the confrontation. I personally wish the Heresy series dedicated more time to big characters than it did. Just my opinion.

 

 

There are still plenty of areas in the book where main characters get attention.

 

The new and existing human characters that are included give a nice vignette of non Astartes role in the siege. I felt their inclusion wasn't a detriment to the story, or came at the expenese of already established Astartes or Primarch characters.

 

Importantly from a historical and tactical angle their story needs to be told.

 

I guess it depends on your definition of signifcant to the bigger picture? The non Astartes and non Primarchs have always been significant players in the siege in my view.

 

Maybe the time to judge these things once the series is over though?

[Biscuittzz]

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Is the one Primarch informed of the warp named? I'd hazard a guess and say it is Corax? I think it was written somewhere that only after meeting the Emperor alone for a full day did he agree to lead the Legion with it being assumed that E informed him of the warp and whatnot.

[Lex D'Arquebus]

  On 7/19/2019 at 9:37 PM, Biscuittzz said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Is the one Primarch informed of the warp named? I'd hazard a guess and say it is Corax? I think it was written somewhere that only after meeting the Emperor alone for a full day did he agree to lead the Legion with it being assumed that E informed him of the warp and whatnot.

 

No, I'll give the actual quote as it's important to the discussion

 

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"Only one of you had the mettle to resist the whispers of the gods at the start. He was told."

 

It's not any of the loyal 3 Primarch present at the briefing as they all either deny it being them or don't know the truth of Chaos. The way the discussion is framed mean's I'd probably rule out the traitors although I can see an arguements for it being one of them.

 

As you point out Corax is a strong possibility. However, given the ambiguity of "at the start" and "whispers of the Gods" it could be others. Was Corax explicitly tempted by the Chaos Gods?

 

The 2 lost Primarchs are obviously posible canditates

 

I'd thought maybe the Lion due to Caliban being what it is, would be in keeping with his secretive nature and his Loyalty to the Emperor.

 

Trying to think what Primarchs seemed to have prior knowledge of Chaos based on the HH books. Alpharius and the Alpha Legion seemed to have knowlege of Chaos in Legion I seem to recall.

 

After the Jubal incident when Horus talks with Loken does it seems he has an idea of Chaos?

 

 

 

 

 

[Darkwrath121]

I'd guess that it may well be Lion too.

 

He did spend a decade in those forests, being tempted by Tzeentch/Kairos Fateweaver, and denying them. He even developed his own 'advanced' mental defenses against daemons/the warp.

Edited July 20, 2019 by Darkwrath121

[Marshal Loss]

Finished. My review/thoughts will contain some minor spoilers, so proceed at your own peril. The plot is in spoiler tags.

 

I started reading LATD earlier this week and got about a third of the way through before the real world dragged me kicking and screaming away from my comfortable chair. At that point I was deeply unhappy with this installment. Part of LATD's remit - as Haley notes in the afterword - is to allow for people unfamiliar with the series to dive in without being familiar with the preceding 50+ odd books. Unfortunately Haley's principal means of dealing with this problem is by lengthy conversational exposition. There is some dialogue that takes place between all of the Loyalist & Traitor Primarchs respectively which feels clumsy and poorly written. Yet at times he does a far better job of setting the scene; for example when Sanguinius flies over the Palace, allowing the reader to obtain a better understanding of the area's geography, it felt far more natural, and I loved the way he built the vast world of the Palace for us in a way we hadn't yet seen. Fans of sieges and logistics are going to love this.

 

The good news is that by the time I reached the conclusion it felt to me like Haley had swung it back into the green and LATD ended a solid addition to the series. It does not reach Solar War's lofty heights but it also doesn't do any real damage and given the difficulties he must have encountered writing it he deserves a pat on the back.

 

Plot:

 

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LATD has a very simple story. Over the course of c. 400 pages we build up to the first major Traitor assault on the wall and learn more about the defences they are going to have to overcome to get to the golden goose at the center. With a virtually impenetrable barrier (the Aegis), the Emperor preventing daemons from manifesting on Terran soil, and a decade of Dorn building sandcastles in the Himalayas, it isn't going to be easy. After Perturabo figures out a way through the Aegis, Horus' solution to this is to overrun the outerworks with the Lost and the Damned and establish eight Dark Mechanicum siege camps around the Palace.The Loyalists are therefore stuck between a rock and a hard place; leave the siege camps alone and they may well damage the Aegis, or sally forth and contribute to the unholy blood magic that will eventually allow the Neverborn to manifest on Terra. The book ends with the first major assault on the walls, which fails, and the first landing by a Traitor Daemon Primarch, Angron, who no longer offers the terms of surrender (this honour goes to Zardu Layak, flying around on a platform of bone with some suicidal sacrifices in tow) but still engages in a bit of good old rational debate with his buddy Sanguinius. We finish with Abaddon being given the news that Horus is burning out and may not be able to make it to the finish line.

 

On paper (and some may disagree) not a lot really happens. There is no great build up to an epic event like in Solar War. This is a scene-setter, and it does the job reasonably well. It is a great strength of the book therefore that Haley chose to spend much of his time not with Astartes but with mere mortals on both sides, and he conveys the horror and scale of the war with admirable clarity. Air combat in the first part of the book adds variety and when the Traitor Astartes eventually arrive they are suitably horrifying. The inclusion of Plague Towers was a nice shout-out to Epic. I can't wait for my bird titans!

 

Some observations/points that people might find interesting:

 

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• Perturabo has been fortifying the outer reaches of the Solar System in preparation for Guilliman's arrival, so when the Smurfs and friends™ arrive they are going to have to fight their way through whatever nasty traps the Lord of Iron has placed in their way.
• Some might remember that Haley's Night Lords were completely useless in Pharos. There is a clear and concerted attempt here to alleviate that somewhat in a scene featuring some pretty cool VIII Legion Breachers pushing the Blood Angels backwards in a scene amusingly reminiscent of the Ultramarines vs. Night Lords in Pharos.
• Perturabo now intends to become a god, and will master the warp with science and logic. This is going to go well.
• While it is noted many times that the Traitors could simply destroy Terra (Perty mentions some inventive schemes to this end), if the Emperor is destroyed with the planet, he will simply spring back up elsewhere. He has to be beaten face to face.
• At one point the Khan is stabbed by a warp dagger and is nearly killed by some Death Guard. Getting sick for the first time in his life shocks him and is a neat addition.
• There are some changes to the original lore unfolding before our very eyes! The Khan is taking half of his Legion out of the Palace to ride around Terra and help save the civilians. Horus intends to sow terror among the populace and it seems reasonably clear that he will unleash Fulgrim and his Emperor's Children (he has a "special role, which you will enjoy" for Fulgrim), which - if deliberate, as I believe it will be - is going to be a stark contrast with the original lore, where the Emperor's Children abandon the siege to hunt down the Terrans. Might be wrong, of course, but if so this represents a major change.
• Leading on from the above, the Khan will most likely encounter the Phoenician around the middle of the series and arrive back for a confrontation with Mortarion at the Lion's Gate space port afterwards (he promises Dorn he will return when needed).
• Horus is already struggling to control his brothers. The dialogue between them is ham-fisted and poorly written, in my opinion, but it certainly gets the point across. For now Horus' might cows all - even Angron - into submission.
• I made a point in the Titandeath thread many months ago about Horus' fall being seen by the Legio Solaria and was pleased to see this addressed here.

 

A few points on the negatives, as I saw them:

 

The book's weaker points are the conversations between the various Primarchs. The dialogue was at times so bad I couldn't help but cringe. We know that Haley is capable of original and quality writing so I was very disappointed to see every stereotype exploited disproportionately in an attempt to ram home points that readers were already going to grasp. Primary example: Perturabo the paranoid and arrogant lunatic who literally puffs himself out with pride every time Horus gives him a glance and who gets sweet-talked in the worst Primarch conversation scene in recent memory. He is borderline unrecognisable when compared to the Perturabo of Slaves to Darkness and Solar War. The conversation between the Loyalist Primarchs and Malcador about the Warp feels like an eight year old attempting to resolve one of the series' most genuinely interesting problems. I'd prefer it if Haley steered clear of that sort of thing in future.

 

In a series like this authors are inevitably going to have different takes on characters. This is both a blessing and a curse, and is something we are all very well familiar with by now. Nevertheless Haley's takes on some characters jar heavily with what we saw in Solar War. His Abaddon and Zardu Layak do not compare with French's at all and Haley seems to have not factored in any of the development throughout that novel. His Traitors are almost comedically evil, not sinister. People unfamiliar with the series will realise that Zardu Layak is clearly important, for example, but they're not going to respect or fear him. Perhaps a closer read of the preceding novel would have helped this out. The contrast with a book that only came out a few months ago is simply too stark for me. Less posturing please! The silver lining here is that his work with the actual Lost and the Damned (along with their Imperial opponents) is absolutely fantastic and as I have noted elsewhere is the highlight of the book for me.

 

Finally, much has been said about some of the lax editing in this work. There are quite a few inconsistencies and canonical conflicts, from the World Eaters coming from the Thramas Crusade to the Maximus Thane screw up. Given that Haley states in the afterword that he views the Heresy as future history and his own role as that of a future historian, it would be nice if both he and the editors did a little more actual historical and historiographical work. The Siege of Terra should be Black Library's crown jewel, the glorious culmination of decades of lore. There may never be a BL series of this magnitude again and they need to do better. As a historian myself I appreciate these challenges all too well, but they are far from insurmountable, and if fans can pick up up on it, they should be able to as well.

 

The Lost and the Damned is a good book and a solid addition to the series. I think this is the kind of novel fans are going to read, enjoy, and then move on from happily. It isn't a timeless classic and certainly won't be in contention for the title of "best installment in the SoT". Haley is a prolific author but he isn't a great, in my opinion, and when comparing his take on (for example) the Traitors with John French or the horrors of war with ADB's SOTE he falls well short. This is a source of frustration for me as he has written some novels that I think are absolutely fantastic (the Perturabo Primarch book, for example) but I am yet to see him bring that kind of originality into this series. I'm sure some others will disagree. If he writes another installment in the Siege of Terra series - the afterword doesn't say that he will, but it also doesn't feel as final as French's - I hope he lifts his game to what we know he is capable of.

Edited July 20, 2019 by Marshal Loss

[RedFurioso]

  On 7/20/2019 at 7:04 AM, Marshal Loss said:

 

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• Perturabo now intends to become a god, and will master the warp with science and logic. This is going to go well.

 

Excuse me WHAT? Can you elaborate, please?

[Marshal Loss]

  On 7/20/2019 at 8:27 AM, RedFurioso said:

 

  On 7/20/2019 at 7:04 AM, Marshal Loss said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

• Perturabo now intends to become a god, and will master the warp with science and logic. This is going to go well.

 

Excuse me WHAT? Can you elaborate, please?

 

 

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  Quote

Already a master of the material sciences, he coveted the power of the warp. He saw possibilities beyond anything his genius could accomplish were it to remain shackled to the materium. But he was wary. His investigations were thorough. He would not follow his brothers into damnation and throw himself blindly upon the mercies of the gods, but circumvent them altogether and become a god himself.

 

Unfortunately there isn't a whole lot to add. The above quote comes from when Perturabo comes to the Vengeful Spirit to visit Horus, and muses on how his brothers are slaves to darkness while he marches through the vessel. Perturabo hates what the warp has done to the Vengeful Spirit, all the mutations, etc.

 

So this could be foreshadowing for something he is going to do - perhaps the Iron Cage incident in the future, where he offers up the gene-seed of his foes (to the gods in the original lore), could represent his attempt to become a god in his own right. Or it could simply be hyperbole inserted by Haley to draw a stark contrast between Perturabo's attitude to Chaos and that of his brothers. But Horus does congratulate Perturabo on not becoming a pawn, so who knows. Interesting possibilities abound! In any case, Perturabo will be a major character in the next book, so we might have further development there.

Edited July 20, 2019 by Marshal Loss

[Marshal Rohr]

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Perturabo seeking to become a god by mastering the warp is a great bit of development in the macro scale and really drives home ADBs points about how anything you try and do with the warp is ultimately going to result in damnation. Ties in with the metatheme really well even if specific executions in novels may not perfect

@Marshal Loss, when you’ve got time can you summarize the geography of the palace as presented in the book?

[Lex D'Arquebus]

  On 7/20/2019 at 11:32 AM, Marshal Rohr said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Perturabo seeking to become a god by mastering the warp is a great bit of development in the macro scale and really drives home ADBs points about how anything you try and do with the warp is ultimately going to result in damnation. Ties in with the metatheme really well even if specific executions in novels may not perfect

@Marshal Loss, when you’ve got time can you summarize the geography of the palace as presented in the book?

 

 

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Indeed , it's also a nice call back to the similarities and differences between Dorn and Perturabo. Malcador tells Dorn that if he knew about the Warp from the get go that Dorn would try to learn more and master it as he was "made to command the material realm" & "Being a man who desires mastery of all things, you would gave been drawn to study it, and in doing so, you would have fallen."

 

 

 

https://siegeofterra.com/

 

is a link where you see the map from the book and zoom in on it if necessasry

[Marshal Rohr]

I’ve got that map, but it’s very two-dimensional and stylized. Like the first one only had a handful of orbital cities around the planets and not the dozens mentioned in the book itself. I’m looking for things like if the palace has multiple levels, mountains within the palace walls, sub-gates, etc. When you see the art of some of the palace it’s built into the mountains, and other art makes it look like a city. There’s also the famous art piece of Chaos marines attacking a plaza with soaring towers all around. Specific names we can use to locate real world mountains or districts in the palace. That kind of thing Edited July 20, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[b1soul]

I don't think the NL are useless in Pharos...they're fractious and undisciplined, which is what everyone knows the NL are devolving into without strong leadership. 

[Marshal Loss]

  On 7/20/2019 at 11:32 AM, Marshal Rohr said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Perturabo seeking to become a god by mastering the warp is a great bit of development in the macro scale and really drives home ADBs points about how anything you try and do with the warp is ultimately going to result in damnation. Ties in with the metatheme really well even if specific executions in novels may not perfect

@Marshal Loss, when you’ve got time can you summarize the geography of the palace as presented in the book?

 

Certainly, when I've got a moment I'll type something up for you!

 

  On 7/20/2019 at 1:02 PM, b1soul said:

I don't think the NL are useless in Pharos...they're fractious and undisciplined, which is what everyone knows the NL are devolving into without strong leadership. 

 

But that's precisely my point. They are useless because they are fractious and undisciplined. I'm not talking about them being worse soldiers than the Ultramarines; I'm talking about them continually failing even in situations where all of the factors are in their favour (e.g. sneak attack in the dark while heavily outnumbering their foes). If that isn't useless in your book then...cool? In any case the tables are turned here, and despite not possessing any strong leadership - in fact their leadership is exactly the same as when they had performed so poorly - they get the job done. The Night Lords in LATD are chasing glory and while it doesn't end well for them, it is nevertheless a strong and (I would wager) a very deliberate contrast with his work in Pharos.

Edited July 20, 2019 by Marshal Loss

[b1soul]

"(e.g. sneak attack in the dark while heavily outnumbering their foes)"

 

It's been a while..which chapter is this?

[Biscuittzz]

There's an amazing piece of artwork showing Raldoron and the Night Lord but I haven't been able to see it again....would any be able to link it possibly?

[Lex D'Arquebus]

  On 7/20/2019 at 12:51 PM, Marshal Rohr said:

I’ve got that map, but it’s very two-dimensional and stylized. Like the first one only had a handful of orbital cities around the planets and not the dozens mentioned in the book itself. I’m looking for things like if the palace has multiple levels, mountains within the palace walls, sub-gates, etc. When you see the art of some of the palace it’s built into the mountains, and other art makes it look like a city. There’s also the famous art piece of Chaos marines attacking a plaza with soaring towers all around. Specific names we can use to locate real world mountains or districts in the palace. That kind of thing

Oh ok, sorry.

 

Given the scale of the Palace I've always imagined it containg all the aspects of your description.

 

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You get an impression of the Palace briefly when the conscript Katsuhiro is being moved throught the front line through it. From his description the space ports they are massive things the size of mountains, the Outer wall is described as a linear mountain and the eternity wall space port is decribed as looming over it.

 

The best overview, literally, comes from when Sanguinius is flying over it Highlohghts include

 

There are walls within as " the eternity wall spawned many offspring, dividing the palace into various wards" (many and variuos are slighty misleading IMO as only 2 are really touched upon)

 

Skye orbitial plate is near the hegemon tower

 

lots of gunson building that wern't designed for them

 

Fortifications of all sorts everywhere, even sandbags filled with the dust of past civilisations

 

Lion's Gate port is described as a ziggurat

 

Repeated idea the the Palcing is huge "scaled for gods"

 

Kush and Ind lie to the south east & south west of the Palace

 

Eterminty Wall Port decribed as a ridge of metal 50km long

 

Celestial Citadel a place for the Navigator Houses having to be cut short to fit inside voids

 

Hopefully that'll tide you over till Marshal Loss gives his impressions of it.

 

 

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/B0ESHWVndrI/

 

Link to Ral and the Count picture from Mike French's instagram

Edited July 20, 2019 by Lex D'Arquebus

[b1soul]

How does the daemonblade make Skraivok  more powerful? Does it move on its own accord, does it infuse him with daemonic vigour? 

 

Edited July 20, 2019 by b1soul

[Lex D'Arquebus]

  On 7/20/2019 at 3:00 PM, b1soul said:

How does the daemonblade make Skraivok  more powerful? Does it move on its own accord, does it infuse him with daemonic vigour? 

 

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The sword is decribed as moving with a mind of it's own, It's also lighter than it should be, Skraivok is desribed as bing filled with sorcerous forehnowledge and supernatural speed. It accentuates his skills with greter speed and strength

[Kelborn]

  On 7/20/2019 at 1:27 PM, b1soul said:

"(e.g. sneak attack in the dark while heavily outnumbering their foes)"

 

It's been a while..which chapter is this?

 

Very beginning of Pharos. Against a small strike force of 10 or 20 Ultramarines. Been a while,so I'm not sure in numbers. But what I remember: me being annoyed while reading that scene...

Edited July 20, 2019 by Kelborn

[b1soul]

It seems that the Khan leads a horde to counter Fulgrim's depredation of civilians. Is there any motive beyond helping civilians? Seems no one would care about them in the grand scheme of things.

[Marshal Loss]

No there is not. The Khan refuses to consign the civilians of Terra to their fate and resolves to take Horus' bait for purely humanitarian reasons. His rejection of Dorn's plan leads to Sanguinius' decision to join the fray later on in the book, again in defiance of Dorn's wishes. As I said above Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children are not yet deployed; the Khan is moving to counter the Lost and the Damned that are ravaging the other cities of Terra, but reading between the lines Horus is going to order the III Legion to do nasty things to the populace, so they will inevitably run into the Scars. This will allow us to get our Khan vs. Fulgrim & Khan vs. Mortarion confrontations; one away from the palace and the other at the spaceport when he returns Eomer style to save the day.

 

Dorn orders the Khan to stay but he refuses, although since he'd been disobeying orders already it doesn't come as much of a surprise. His disobedience mainly serves to set up Sanguinius' own moment in the sun later in the novel, and it is Sanguinius' premonition that stops the Khan from dying in his first foray beyond the walls. The old "if we aren't fighting to save humanity, what are we fighting for?".

 

As for Skraivok, the blade...

 

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...gives him an incredible boost in speed and skill for about 3 seconds before it abandons him. As is invariably the case with daemon blades like this it does most of the work for him and cuts through whatever it touches like a hot knife through butter. He is described as a middling swordsman and the blade makes him streets better than everybody, the First Captain of the Blood Angels included. After it abandons him seconds into their fight Raldoron then demolishes him and Skraivok throws himself off the wall to avoid getting shot in the head. At the end of the book he gives his soul to the daemon in the blade who takes him into the warp to be tortured to better understand pain.

 

And another note I forgot to mention, Sanguinius & Angron

 

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Sanguinius says that they will fight after Angron challenges him. So expect the Red Angel vs Red Angel duel many of us predicted later on in the Siege.

Edited July 20, 2019 by Marshal Loss

[b1soul]

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What do you guys think are the odds of Sanguinius besting Daemon Angron? Honestly, I would be very surprised, just like if Khan beats Daemon Fulgrim in straightforward combat. The reward of Chaos is a huge power boost.

[Kelborn]

Well, we got Perturabo "defeating" Angron. Though with the help of his multiple guns but Sangi is said to be top tier in close Combat. Either the author will have a hard time writing it or it's gonns be Like the Sigi/Abbi duel from Black Legion.