The Siege of Terra: The Lost and the Damned

[pandion40]

What do you guys think are the odds of Sanguinius besting Daemon Angron? Honestly, I would be very surprised, just like if Khan beats Daemon Fulgrim in straightforward combat. The reward of Chaos is a huge power boost.

I don’t think it’s as straight forward as a power boost when anyone ascends to Deamonhood, power isn’t added to them they are transformed into a new being, Angrons old Primarch body is gone, his new body is almost certainly more powerful and probably takes inspiration from his old in some ways, but it’s not as straightforward as primarch power plus Deamon power for the Deamonic Primarchs.

 

The other thing is the difference between how powerful a Deamon is in the warp and how much of that power a Deamon can bring into the Material universe is never the same, Angron stopped for ages on Armageddon building temples and doing rituals to get enough warp power to stabilise his Deamon horde. They’ve got more attention from the chaos gods at earth but less time for rituals and such on site, Angrons also fairly new as a Deamon.

 

Lastly I don’t think we’ve seen Sanguinius truly unleashed yet, he holds back the rage that’s a part of him, most of his brothers see something in him though, something dangerous that I think we’ve not really seen yet, the siege is their last opportunity to show us that Sanguinius is as great as we’re told he is, he’s been a little disappointing so far to me, so as he’s my favourite Primarch I hope we finally get to see why so many of his brothers and others rate him so highly as a fighter and why he was a potential Warmaster, Two separate things and it’s the second that we’ve seen the least of in my opinion

[Lex D'Arquebus]

 

What do you guys think are the odds of Sanguinius besting Daemon Angron? Honestly, I would be very surprised, just like if Khan beats Daemon Fulgrim in straightforward combat. The reward of Chaos is a huge power boost.

I don’t think it’s as straight forward as a power boost when anyone ascends to Deamonhood, power isn’t added to them they are transformed into a new being, Angrons old Primarch body is gone, his new body is almost certainly more powerful and probably takes inspiration from his old in some ways, but it’s not as straightforward as primarch power plus Deamon power for the Deamonic Primarchs.

 

The other thing is the difference between how powerful a Deamon is in the warp and how much of that power a Deamon can bring into the Material universe is never the same, Angron stopped for ages on Armageddon building temples and doing rituals to get enough warp power to stabilise his Deamon horde. They’ve got more attention from the chaos gods at earth but less time for rituals and such on site, Angrons also fairly new as a Deamon.

 

Lastly I don’t think we’ve seen Sanguinius truly unleashed yet, he holds back the rage that’s a part of him, most of his brothers see something in him though, something dangerous that I think we’ve not really seen yet, the siege is their last opportunity to show us that Sanguinius is as great as we’re told he is, he’s been a little disappointing so far to me, so as he’s my favourite Primarch I hope we finally get to see why so many of his brothers and others rate him so highly as a fighter and why he was a potential Warmaster, Two separate things and it’s the second that we’ve seen the least of in my opinion

 

 

Yeah it'll be interesting to see how they balance any Primarch vs Daemon Primarch battles.

 

For all the daemon Primarchs I suspect their daemonic instability on Terra as well as their changed mental states will all be negatives to counter their daemonic and Primarch boons.

 

It is mentioned several time in TLaTD that Sanguinius' foresight is reaching new strengths the closer he comes to his confrontation with Horus so that could aid him, though I have to feel that fatigue will also play a part in any fight involving him. The early lore on the siege had him being almost everywhere at once during the later stages and a real rallying point for the defenders.

 

 

 

 

[Marshal Loss]

Some valid points being made about Primarchs vs. Daemon Primarchs here, but I feel that narratively speaking it is rather obvious that

 

Sanguinius will defeat (or at the very least hold his own) against Angron. The SoT is his time to shine, they need an epic victory to replace the Ka'bandha event, and they're not going to have him defeated by Angron just before he gets plucked and roasted by angry bald daemon Horus. We have already seen Angron humbled by the material in Slaves to Darkness so we know it can happen and the lore will serve the narrative here. As is noted above existing text has Sanguinius exhausted by the time he reaches the Warmaster so there is no need to save his energy and there are a multitude of factors that could come into play.

 

People often try to sell short the power boost Daemonhood offers the Emperor's sons, and it is difficult to quantify because they are already so powerful prior to their ascension. When it comes to Primarchs, I'm very fond of saying that there are only degrees of differences between them. For Daemonhood to be worth the unspeakable cost it must offer incredible power. On the tabletop this invariably means that a Daemon Primarch wrecks a non-Daemon Primarch, but if being physically or psychically stronger always meant a guaranteed victory in the lore then we'd all be bored to tears and wouldn't be here discussing it.

 

The downsides to Daemonhood are more difficult to quantify - their connection to the warp becomes vital, they lose their souls and become a part of their patron deity, become vulnerable to esoteric attacks and psychic shenanigans, even from mortals, and it clearly boosts the negative parts of their personality that took them down such a dark path in the first place (e.g. hubris in spades, Angron's lack of control, Fulgrim being a hedonistic lunatic, etc). And because these factors are more nebulous they are always going to appear subject to the story the author wants to tell. There is ample space here for the Loyalist Primarchs to exploit these weaknesses and triumph even if they lack the might of their fallen brethren when compared in a vacuum. Is the Khan "stronger" than Daemon Fulgrim? No. Can he beat him? Indisputably.

[calgar101]

It certainly be an interesting fight and I look forward to any Khan v Fulgrim showdown. If you have read about Corax and his journey in the Eye of Terror was know that a Primarch can tap in to his warp side and boost himself. Perhaps Sanguinius is able to do this on Terra or the weakened barrier between the warp and material world amplifies every one who is connected to the warp?

[b1soul]

I'm still on sure how a primarch could harness the Warp without being corrupted to some extent. Corax and Russ after millenia in the Eye would at least be semi-Chaotic in my view. Perhaps some Primarchs simply have greater willpower than others or simply don't wish to controlled by Chaos.

[Biscuittzz]

Well....and not to go too off-topic, the warp is just a manifestation of the greater sum of all mental/psychic energy/ emotion etc. So just like hate/anger/war will empower Khorne, there will be a part of the warp that is fuelled by love/hope/happiness etc. Primarchs can harness this part maybe? The warp isn't just evil is what I'm getting at basically.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm still on sure how a primarch could harness the Warp without being corrupted to some extent. Corax and Russ after millenia in the Eye would at least be semi-Chaotic in my view. Perhaps some Primarchs simply have greater willpower than others or simply don't wish to controlled by Chaos.

Yea, how do all those librarians, astropaths and sanctioned psykers manage?

[b1soul]

 

I'm still on sure how a primarch could harness the Warp without being corrupted to some extent. Corax and Russ after millenia in the Eye would at least be semi-Chaotic in my view. Perhaps some Primarchs simply have greater willpower than others or simply don't wish to controlled by Chaos.

Yea, how do all those librarians, astropaths and sanctioned psykers manage?

 

 

How is Warp Corax anything like a sanctioned psyker? Think before you post please. 

[Lex D'Arquebus]

Well....and not to go too off-topic, the warp is just a manifestation of the greater sum of all mental/psychic energy/ emotion etc. So just like hate/anger/war will empower Khorne, there will be a part of the warp that is fuelled by love/hope/happiness etc. Primarchs can harness this part maybe? The warp isn't just evil is what I'm getting at basically.

 

Good point, especially if you factor into account that the warp is implied to have been harnessed in some way to create the Primarchs. Throughout the HH series a number of Loyalist Primarchs have questioned their possible chaotic nature (Corax and Sanguinius), Sanguinus continues this trend in TLaTD where he again questions how he got his wings. It's also impied that all the Primarchs all have some psychic ability so tapping into the warp for all of them should be possible.                                           

 

 

 

 

I'm still on sure how a primarch could harness the Warp without being corrupted to some extent. Corax and Russ after millenia in the Eye would at least be semi-Chaotic in my view. Perhaps some Primarchs simply have greater willpower than others or simply don't wish to controlled by Chaos.

Yea, how do all those librarians, astropaths and sanctioned psykers manage?

 

 

Is it not two different things? The Primarchs in the Eye of Terror are in a chaotic enviroment (like being in a nuclear reactor) so run the possibility of being contaminated, the librarians etc are not emersed in the warp rather they are syphoning off it's power in a controlled way (using the power from the nuclear reactor to generate power).

[b1soul]

@ Lex D'Arquebus

 

Yes, Librarians are tapping the nuclear reactor remotely so to speak. The closest analog to a Librarian among the primarchs is Magnus. He's essentially the Librarian primarch of the most Librarian-focused legion...but throw him into the Eye and it ain't gonna be pretty. 

 

If Corax has been hunting in the Eye since the Scouring, he's been immersed in intense Warp energy for an unhealthy amount of time. Corax was mistaken by the Word Bearers for a some kind of shadow Daemon and exhibiting new Warp powers beyond those he had previously exhibited during the GC or the Heresy. I highly doubt that sort of prolonged exposure to the Warp results in zero taint. 

 

I think if a primarch experiences prolonged Warp exposure, it's obviously very different from Daemon Prince-hood, but it's more like becoming Warp-corrupted unwillingly though perhaps willingly being Warp-empowered in the process. Too much exposure and even a once loyalist primarch will start falling to Chaos. So it's a question of dosage.      

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

 

I'm still on sure how a primarch could harness the Warp without being corrupted to some extent. Corax and Russ after millenia in the Eye would at least be semi-Chaotic in my view. Perhaps some Primarchs simply have greater willpower than others or simply don't wish to controlled by Chaos.

Yea, how do all those librarians, astropaths and sanctioned psykers manage?

How is Warp Corax anything like a sanctioned psyker? Think before you post please.

Well first of all, all you said was "harnessed". Many things harness the warp without being corrupted, because the warp is just power. That idea, that power is neutral until used towards a goal, was the whole philosophy justifying the thousand sons. The dangers associated with using the warp are either daemon related, or using too much power beyond one's control.

 

Living in the warp mutates humans and astartes based off emotions and symbolism, but primarchs are warp-based already. Their nature would be emphasized and enhanced, especially if they learned to use that. So in corax' case, vengeance is his nature and ravens are a large part of his symbolism, explaining his form.

 

But there's no interaction with a chaos god, much like librarians, void shields an everything else that interacts with warp power.

[Lex D'Arquebus]

@ Lex D'Arquebus

 

Yes, Librarians are tapping the nuclear reactor remotely so to speak. The closest analog to a Librarian among the primarchs is Magnus. He's essentially the Librarian primarch of the most Librarian-focused legion...but throw him into the Eye and it ain't gonna be pretty. 

 

If Corax has been hunting in the Eye since the Scouring, he's been immersed in intense Warp energy for an unhealthy amount of time. Corax was mistaken by the Word Bearers for a some kind of shadow Daemon and exhibiting new Warp powers beyond those he had previously exhibited during the GC or the Heresy. I highly doubt that sort of prolonged exposure to the Warp results in zero taint. 

 

I think if a primarch experiences prolonged Warp exposure, it's obviously very different from Daemon Prince-hood, but it's more like becoming Warp-corrupted unwillingly though perhaps willingly being Warp-empowered in the process. Too much exposure and even a once loyalist primarch will start falling to Chaos. So it's a question of dosage.      

 

I guess the closest analogy to your therory would be the 13th company of the Rout. I don't know the current lore on them but they weren't mutated and changed too much by being in the Eye as I remember it. Wulfen aside, but they were already like that as I recall? There is also the added wrinkle of time in the Eye moving at a different rate so it may ne hard to make assumptions of change or lack thereof based on time exposed whilst being in the Eye.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm still on sure how a primarch could harness the Warp without being corrupted to some extent. Corax and Russ after millenia in the Eye would at least be semi-Chaotic in my view. Perhaps some Primarchs simply have greater willpower than others or simply don't wish to controlled by Chaos.

Yea, how do all those librarians, astropaths and sanctioned psykers manage?

How is Warp Corax anything like a sanctioned psyker? Think before you post please.

Well first of all, all you said was "harnessed". Many things harness the warp without being corrupted, because the warp is just power. That idea, that power is neutral until used towards a goal, was the whole philosophy justifying the thousand sons. The dangers associated with using the warp are either daemon related, or using too much power beyond one's control.

 

Living in the warp mutates humans and astartes based off emotions and symbolism, but primarchs are warp-based already. Their nature would be emphasized and enhanced, especially if they learned to use that. So in corax' case, vengeance is his nature and ravens are a large part of his symbolism, explaining his form.

 

But there's no interaction with a chaos god, much like librarians, void shields an everything else that interacts with warp power.

 

 

Also given Corax's abilities to change how people percieve (or don't percieve) him, the way the word bearers and Lorgar percieve him could be an evolvition of this abillity.

 

Bringing it back to topic

We'll maybe get a better idea of Primarch warp interaction with Perturabo as he's pretty disgusted by the transformation of the others into daemonhood so hopes to approach his assecention in a more logical and science based way,

That could of course just be setting him up for a fall, in that in his arrogence he thinks he can master chaos but it's really chaos enslaving him etc etc.

[b1soul]

"I don't know the current lore on them but they weren't mutated and changed too much by being in the Eye as I remember it."

 

In French's Ahriman series, they are seriously mutated and becoming more bestial by the day. So they're Chaos-resistant but not immune.

 

Also, 10,000 years in real space could be 100 years in the Warp or a million years. It goes both ways.

[bluntblade]

I'm still on sure how a primarch could harness the Warp without being corrupted to some extent. Corax and Russ after millenia in the Eye would at least be semi-Chaotic in my view. Perhaps some Primarchs simply have greater willpower than others or simply don't wish to controlled by Chaos.

The Khan and Russ have both tapped into their inborn "potential" at points. Russ' howl, Jaghatai destroying the psychneuin.

[Lex D'Arquebus]

"I don't know the current lore on them but they weren't mutated and changed too much by being in the Eye as I remember it."

 

In French's Ahriman series, they are seriously mutated and becoming more bestial by the day. So they're Chaos-resistant but not immune.

 

Also, 10,000 years in real space could be 100 years in the Warp or a million years. It goes both ways.

 

Cool, thanks for the update. Are they mutated in a chaos way or are they in a way that's in keeping with the wulfen curse? As per my original post I seem to recall In 1000 sons some of them are pretty mutated & bestial already so in restrospect it's maybe a poor yardstick.

 

"Also, 10,000 years in real space could be 100 years in the Warp or a million years. It goes both ways."

 

Yeah, exactly my point,  you can't really make assumptions because time can move at a different rate. "Think before you post please."

[b1soul]

"Yeah, exactly my point, you can't really make assumptions because time can move at a different rate. "Think before you post please.""

 

You can still look at the probabilities. Warp time-dilation is common, but something as extreme as 10,000 years shrinking into a day or two is rare. This doesn't happen often when Imperial ships engage in Warp jumps.

 

So in my humble opinion, I doubt 10,000 years in real space is going to be an hour or two for Corax in the Eye. Even if it is only a few centuries for him (like for Talos and co.), that's still a long time to be immersed in Warp energies. I fully acknowledge it's not impossible that Corax passes all that time in the blink of an eye (pun intended), but I think it's more likely that Corax has spent quite a bit of time roaming the Eye. Even a year or two would be a lot of Warp exposure.

 

Regarding the SW in the Ahriman series, I should say I don't think the SW are Chaos-immune. There are Chaos renegades of SW stock in other sources. And the mutated SW in the Ahriman series kill (and get killed by) loyalist Astartes, rather than trying to reason. They appear to be losing their sanity. If they're not Chaos-corrupted, they're at least being manipulated by Chaos in my view. Of course, French tends to show and not tell (like a good authour), so the reader is left to draw conclusions.

[m_r_parker]

Well I finished the book a couple of days ago, and have been mulling it over for a couple of days now. I will say that although this isn't as good as Solar War, it is better than what I expected - however there are still a few things that don't sit well with me regarding the novel.

 

As usual, I will try to include anything that relates or leads to spoilers in the appropriate tags, but will try to include as much as I can outside of that where possible.

 

Going into this book I was expecting one thing; this was going to be from the PoV of the regular humans, on both sides of the conflict, rather than focus on Legionnaires / Primarchs / Legendary People. And in that, well it both was and wasn't. What I found was that it was rather fractured for a lot of the novel, to the extent that before I had even reached the half-way point I had put the book down for a few days as it wasn't grabbing my interest. It did pick up in the second half, but primarily at the cost of what I wanted from the book. I'm not sure what that says about me as a reader...

 

In terms of a global timeline, this novel spans the period of 13th of Secondus through to 15th of Quartus (I'm guessing 13th February to 15th of April, just over two calendar months), and without the prompts at the beginning of each of the chapters it's very difficult to assess the amount of time that has passed throughout the novel. If it had only been three weeks instead of eight I wouldn't have been surprised. And I think that's a little of what lost me in this novel, as we track through what I think is our main PoV character; Katsuhiro, a conscript assigned to the defence lines outside of Bastion 16 in front of the Helios Gate. He could have been used more effectively to iterate the passing of time, how the nature of the defenders change over the course of the weeks, but as a character he appears to get lost within himself and the opportunities to tell a story through him rapidly diminish. 

I think back to what A-D-B did with the Emperors Spears, and having the entire novel purely PoV of a single character and having their experience so fleshed-out, and I am disappointed with what I read here.

 

Like I said above, the second half of the novel is better than the first half, but it came at the expense of what I was hoping for. Instead of it being a more in-depth dive into the life of a humans on both sides of the conflict, it came back to a more traditional legionnaire vs legionnaire affair with some Primarchs thrown into the mix - despite a lot of the narrative threads of the novel were around not wanting to expend Legion forces too early. The second half was a lot easier to read and felt more familiar and comfortable.

 

Onto more spoiler-y discussions.

 

Regarding Horus:

I'm not sure I'm liking the direction Horus is being taken in. I can see what they are doing in terms of having Horus trying to weaken the Emperor in the Warp, and I quite like that idea actually, but I'm not sure I appreciate the concept of his power / life is being spent at an exponential rate and is time-sensitive. I think what they are trying to do is put more of an explanation around the final stages of the Siege where the shields of the Venegeful Spirit are dropped, allowing the Loyalist's to board. Rather than it just be about impending reinforcements from Guillman and the other Legions, it will also be about Horus trying to claim victory before his time / power run out. If that is the case then I'm not sure why the Emperor would board the Vengeful Spirit when he could just let Horus burn himself out whilst defending the Palace? Maybe I'm thinking too much into this...

 

Regarding Abaddon:

I can see that both in this book and Solar War they're already planting the seeds of Abaddon becoming the new Warmaster and Champion of Chaos through the interaction between him and Zardu Layak, inferring that Zardu is aware of Abaddon's future and destiny. Whilst it's nice to see it being referenced, and the tie-in to the 40k universe as we know it, it does raise questions for me. Namely, if Zardu is aware of the importance of Abaddon in the future, and Abaddon becoming the new Champion of the Gods, wouldn't that also indicate that Zardu is aware that the events of the Heresy are not going to go as planned for the Traitors? Wouldn't that be something that the rest should know?

 

 

[Indefragable]

 

Regarding Abaddon:

I can see that both in this book and Solar War they're already planting the seeds of Abaddon becoming the new Warmaster and Champion of Chaos through the interaction between him and Zardu Layak, inferring that Zardu is aware of Abaddon's future and destiny. Whilst it's nice to see it being referenced, and the tie-in to the 40k universe as we know it, it does raise questions for me. Namely, if Zardu is aware of the importance of Abaddon in the future, and Abaddon becoming the new Champion of the Gods, wouldn't that also indicate that Zardu is aware that the events of the Heresy are not going to go as planned for the Traitors? Wouldn't that be something that the rest should know?

 

 

Zardu is a classic investor trying to short Horus' stock so his own (Abaddon) grows in value.

[bluntblade]

I don't think Layak knows, based on SoD, but he may suspect

[Apothecary Vaddon]

lmao investing, that's a perfect analogy. imagine a 40kMSNBC headline: HORUS - WARMASTER OR SCRUBMASTER? ABADDON LINING UP NEW SUPPLY CHAIN, IS HE THE FUTURE OF CHAOS? (full disclosure: long Abaddon, short Horus)

[Fedor]

I got the impression this book was very much BL taking advantage of Haley's ability to produce solid works at great pace, in so much as they've given him the early water-carrying set the scene book for the siege. as usual he does it solidly, but at the expense of it being a bit safe(not necessarily a big criticism for this sort of book depending on what we get later) and a bit fractured in terms of the new stuff he does bring in with the conscripts. The viewing things through the eyes of the lowly soldier doesn't come off as fully realised as it could.

[b1soul]

Yes, a lot of Haley's works are solid but not excellent. His pace is astonishing.

 

Anyway...rather Haley than Thorpe, Swallow, or Kyme. He's a solid workhorse athour in BL's stable

[Blindhamster]

Yes, a lot of Haley's works are solid but not excellent. His pace is astonishing.

 

Anyway...rather Haley than Thorpe, Swallow, or Kyme. He's a solid workhorse athour in BL's stable

Who occasionally creates real gems.

 

DANTE is my favourite black library book. I wonder if that has anything to do with likely less aggressive deadlines aw or wasnt tied to a model release.

[Preliminary Bombardment]

Agree with what has been said so far, a solid entry that hits the notes it needs to. Bit I liked:

 

Angron.

Night Lords being Night Lords.

Raldoron

[Moonreaper666]

Shouldn't it be the case that most Daemon Primarchs are more powerful than their Loyalist brethern?

 

Fulgrim should be tougher and faster than Khan while Angron should beat Dorn, Khan and Vulkan together. Magnus should curbstomp Russ and Lion

 

Even present day Guilliman should not be able to beat Lorgar without help (Guilliman couldn't even beat Kor Phaeron or Skarbrand on his own)

 

Even Corax, the most powerful Loyalist Primarch present day, shouldn't beat Magnus, Mortarion or Angron on his own

 

Aren't Drach'nyen and Doombreed just as if not more powerful than the Daemon Primarchs? Is present day Abaddon more powerful than Dorn or Khan?