God Emperor and Empress

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

Long time lurker on here, love 40k ever since my older brother gave me Horus Rising & Guants Ghosts to read as a kid, never seen this question asked so interested in what you think.

 

Just as every child needs both a father & a mother to be raised ideally, what would have happened to the primarchs & the Imperium had the Emperor had a good woman by his side as the Empress of Mankind (as a twin sister not a wife)? I don't see the Empress as a ultimate Psyker but the ultimate pariah (she can suppress this & appear as a humble human woman to mortals). And I am NOT proposing female spacemarines, before anyone asks.

 

Would Mankind benefit from a Mother figure?

Would the primarchs have benefited from a mother who loved them as her children and not just see them as just tools as the Emperor did?

If so which primarchs would have more then others, would she for example shown pity on Angron and launched warhound drop pods to save his brothers and sisters, then remove the butchers nails from him?

Would there be separate churches for the Emperor & Empress or would they be one?

If separate would there be a rivalry leading to religious wars or would they complement one another?

How would this affect the sisters of battle & silence?

What would the custodes think?

Would this have prevented the heresy?

If not would the Empress (as us women are far more vicious then men) simply have immediately annihilated Horus on the bridge of the Vengeful Spirit without a 2nd thought & wept afterwards for her wayward son?

 

Really, Really curious as to what anyone's thoughts are here as I have never seen anyone ponder anything like this.

[MegaVolt87]

Would make no difference, instead of father knows best like we have now it would be mother knows best. Business as usual. 

[Panzer]

It would have made no difference because 1. The Primarchs didn't get raised by the Emperor in the first place and 2. The way things are is how GW wanted things to be.

[Captain_Krash]

The Emperor would be taking a lot more aspirin, and drinking a lot more.

 

Honestly though. It wouldn't have made a difference. The Primarchs were created for specific purposes. Nothing more nothing less sadly...a "loving" (if we are looking at it this way) motherly figure would have only just confused them and possibly made the Primarchs more emotional which "love" really isn't a comfortable topic or feeling that many of the Primarchs experienced or shared when they were growing up on there respective planets.

 

Nothing confirming women are more vicious than man, just various degrees of apathy or empathy are equally shared by both sexes at a physiological and emotional level depending on temperament and surroundings they were brought up in or experiences through out there upbringing.

 

Krash

[Bryan Blaire]

The ultimate Pariah wouldn't have been able to be near some of the Primarchs, if any of them, and it isn't something you can just "turn off" - that's not how the universe of 40K works.

 

Others have already said why this alternate reality further wouldn't be feasible.

[Tyriks]

The ultimate Pariah wouldn't have been able to be near some of the Primarchs, if any of them, and it isn't something you can just "turn off" - that's not how the universe of 40K works.

Others have already said why this alternate reality further wouldn't be feasible.

There has been fluff to support "turning off" pariahs.

[Bryan Blaire]

There has been fluff to support "turning off" pariahs.

Interesting - I haven't run into that in my reading - what are the sources? I will admit to not having read all the BL stuff, so I'd be interested to pick up a few that have this detail in it, since it hasn't seemed present in the Heresy books (other than the specifically trained assassins using devices) I've read to date or the other BL stuff I've picked up.

 

Regardless of being able to turn the Pariah effect on and off, I’m not sure that being a pariah would make you a loving,nurturing person/parent.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Emperor is the singularity and only true transhuman in the purest theoretical sense. Him being male is how people perceive him. He is neither male, nor female, nor anything else. He's a psychic manifestation of purest form. 

[Tyriks]

Well in the Ravenor series a blank has a device that limits his null field when he wants to. He's still a blank but he doesn't stop psykers near him when it's on. Eisenhorn also describes Bequin as at times actively trying harder to suppress psykers which could imply she could actively try not to.

 

I'm trying to think of which other book had a similar concept and I'm not recalling it. I think a blank was struggling to do so but ultimately allowed a psyker to act normally but I can't remember what book it was.

[Bryan Blaire]

Yeah, I can see devices being able to do it. I thought the implication was more natural when I read the “What If” questions.

 

I will also admit to not being a fan of Abnett’s BL books - I don’t actively avoid them, but if it is a choice between one of his and someone else’s, I will almost always pick up someone else’s works.

[Marshal Rohr]

I don't think a blank suppressing its effect on people is currently an active concept in the lore. Now it seems like the more powerful someone is, the less a blank effects them. Primarchs can be effected by Sisters of Silence, but the Emperor is not. 

[Karhedron]

The Emperor is the singularity and only true transhuman in the purest theoretical sense. Him being male is how people perceive him. He is neither male, nor female, nor anything else. He's a psychic manifestation of purest form.

I don't think this is true. "Master of Mankind" shows that he was born as a human boy and grew into his powers. He is not a psychic manifestation, he has a definite physical form, otherwise Horus would not have been able to physically cripple him at the end of the Siege of Terra.

 

If you want an example of a psychic manifestation then Magnus after Russ break his back would probably be best example of such a being.

[Tyriks]

Yeah, I can see devices being able to do it. I thought the implication was more natural when I read the “What If” questions.

Well, if a device can do it, it's physically possible. So if we are talking a blank on the same scale as the Emperor, it seems fitting that they'd be able to have some control over it.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

The Emperor is the singularity and only true transhuman in the purest theoretical sense. Him being male is how people perceive him. He is neither male, nor female, nor anything else. He's a psychic manifestation of purest form.

I don't think this is true. "Master of Mankind" shows that he was born as a human boy and grew into his powers. He is not a psychic manifestation, he has a definite physical form, otherwise Horus would not have been able to physically cripple him at the end of the Siege of Terra.

 

If you want an example of a psychic manifestation then Magnus after Russ break his back would probably be best example of such a being.

 

 

We don't know if the vision he shared with Ra was real. If he wasn't a manifestation he wouldn't be able to shapeshift as he does. There may be some human thing beneath the manifestation, but the what people see when they see him depends on the person and is in no way a true representation of what the Emperor actually looks like or is. 

 

That's irrelevant to the topic anyway, which is if the Emperor had lady parts would he be different, the answer is unequivocally no, because his dangly bits are irrelevant to him in his current form.

[Frater Antodeniel]

With the recent introduction in the Fluff of the Noctilith (A material that can be made to increase or repell Warp power), we can easily imagine that the same thing can apply to souls.

 

Thus, it would make sense that Pariah and Blank are not trully soulless, but instead have their souls charged negatively. To those whose souls are positively warp charged, Blank and Pariah appears soulless and shrouded by an unworldly aura that repell common souls.

 

Also, as showed by the Dark Eldars fluff, and the way they used humans Pariah in order to block a warp gate, Pariah are only able to nullify warp energy to a certain extend.

 

As for the Emperor, being a singular SOUL, he can be both or even be able to switch from on side of the coin to the other at will.

 

Also on the main subject, the Emperor being a perpetual, it means that "it" is more of a soul than a body, meaning that he may have lived lifes as a male or a female.

The being that is the Emperor may even be able to "choose" at birth which gender would benefit the more his future need in order to fullfil his duty for Humanity.

 

The 30K Emperor was a male because the very act of conquest is depicted as a male ambition, and that being a male would give humanity an archetype of leadership.

But the Emperor, should he "die", may also resurect as a female to symbolise hope and renewal.

[Slasher956]

shouldnt it be Goddess for a female?

 

[Marshal Rohr]

With the recent introduction in the Fluff of the Noctilith (A material that can be made to increase or repell Warp power), we can easily imagine that the same thing can apply to souls.

 

Thus, it would make sense that Pariah and Blank are not trully soulless, but instead have their souls charged negatively. To those whose souls are positively warp charged, Blank and Pariah appears soulless and shrouded by an unworldly aura that repell common souls.

 

Also, as showed by the Dark Eldars fluff, and the way they used humans Pariah in order to block a warp gate, Pariah are only able to nullify warp energy to a certain extend.

 

As for the Emperor, being a singular SOUL, he can be both or even be able to switch from on side of the coin to the other at will.

 

Also on the main subject, the Emperor being a perpetual, it means that "it" is more of a soul than a body, meaning that he may have lived lifes as a male or a female.

The being that is the Emperor may even be able to "choose" at birth which gender would benefit the more his future need in order to fullfil his duty for Humanity.

 

The 30K Emperor was a male because the very act of conquest is depicted as a male ambition, and that being a male would give humanity an archetype of leadership.

But the Emperor, should he "die", may also resurect as a female to symbolise hope and renewal.

 

That is extrapolation directly at odds with the definitive statements that Blanks have no reflection in the warp. 

[Panzer]

Also the material is called Blackstone, not Noctolith.

Also also the part about being reborn and chosing the body is 110% speculative. We don't even know what kind of perpetual the Emperor is. Some just heal, some just don't age and some get reborn. The Emperor hasn't really died yet so it's impossible to say ... heck for the longest time it wasn't even save to say that he really is a perpetual.

[Frater Antodeniel]

 

With the recent introduction in the Fluff of the Noctilith (A material that can be made to increase or repell Warp power), we can easily imagine that the same thing can apply to souls.

 

Thus, it would make sense that Pariah and Blank are not trully soulless, but instead have their souls charged negatively. To those whose souls are positively warp charged, Blank and Pariah appears soulless and shrouded by an unworldly aura that repell common souls.

 

Also, as showed by the Dark Eldars fluff, and the way they used humans Pariah in order to block a warp gate, Pariah are only able to nullify warp energy to a certain extend.

 

As for the Emperor, being a singular SOUL, he can be both or even be able to switch from on side of the coin to the other at will.

 

Also on the main subject, the Emperor being a perpetual, it means that "it" is more of a soul than a body, meaning that he may have lived lifes as a male or a female.

The being that is the Emperor may even be able to "choose" at birth which gender would benefit the more his future need in order to fullfil his duty for Humanity.

 

The 30K Emperor was a male because the very act of conquest is depicted as a male ambition, and that being a male would give humanity an archetype of leadership.

But the Emperor, should he "die", may also resurect as a female to symbolise hope and renewal.

 

That is extrapolation directly at odds with the definitive statements that Blanks have no reflection in the warp. 

 

 

In fact, in Watchers of the Throne: The Emperor's Legion, the Sisters of Silence, which are all Blank are able to see the Deamons of the Warp, thought they see it in their own way. But the very fact that they see it, mean that they have a connection to the warp, even a faint one. Also, like said in the fluff multiple times, Blank and Pariah repells the warp but can be affected by it.

 

Also, do not restrain you "vision" of what the Warp is. It is the realm of possibilities, and nothing is impossible, thought even i must admit that the Impossible is a possible.^^

[Marshal Rohr]

Sisters have always been able to see demons. In fact, in Master of Mankind, it is humans that can't percieve Drach'nyen, but the Sisters can see him no matter what form he takes because of their blankness. That is not an indication of a connection to the warp, it means they are unaffected by the psychic auras of demons, seeing their purest real world form. In simplest terms, a human might see a Daemonette as a beautiful siren or a Bloodletter as an armored warrior. Sisters see them as their models and artwork look. Blanks and pariahs do not repel the warp like a magnetic field, thats how Geller fields work. Blanks and pariahs simply negate it.

[Panzer]

You don't need to have a connection to the warp to see daemons. You need a connection to the warp so daemons can see YOU without problems.

[Karhedron]

 

 

The Emperor is the singularity and only true transhuman in the purest theoretical sense. Him being male is how people perceive him. He is neither male, nor female, nor anything else. He's a psychic manifestation of purest form.

I don't think this is true. "Master of Mankind" shows that he was born as a human boy and grew into his powers. He is not a psychic manifestation, he has a definite physical form, otherwise Horus would not have been able to physically cripple him at the end of the Siege of Terra.

 

If you want an example of a psychic manifestation then Magnus after Russ break his back would probably be best example of such a being.

 

 

We don't know if the vision he shared with Ra was real. If he wasn't a manifestation he wouldn't be able to shapeshift as he does. There may be some human thing beneath the manifestation, but the what people see when they see him depends on the person and is in no way a true representation of what the Emperor actually looks like or is.

 

Maybe not but the Sisters of Silence can see his "true" form since they are immune to psychic powers. The Sisters see him a man with a lined face. It is strongly implied that this is his genuine physical form beneath his psychic glamour. It is also strongly implied that Corax is able to see the Emperor's true face as well.

[Marshal Rohr]

Even so, I think Male and Female is far behind what the Emperor is that by switching him to a Mother and wizened crone figure would end up in the same place. His reproductive organs are as irrelevant as his hair or eye color. 

[Brother Tyler]

I'll bite, but I'm going to ignore the whole pariah line.

Would the story have turned out differently if the Emperor (not "God Emperor") had been replaced by a dual male/female team?

Almost certainly.

That wouldn't necessarily have changed the outcome, however. All it would have changed would have been the specific elements leading to the ultimate outcome.

The Warhammer 40,000 setting wasn't created step by step, with causes leading to effects. Rather, the setting was the result of a basic outcome (the grimdark future we sort of know) with the causes filled in over time - some very early, and others appearing over time. The story of the Emperor finds its roots in any number of real world philosophical and religious writings as well as the fictional settings of Michael Moorcock (King-Emperor Huon of the Runestaff Chronicles) and Frank Herbert (Emperor Leto Atreides II), and there are probably many others that draw upon this trope (no need to delve into them as we don't want to get sidetracked). One of the reasons it was likely used was the trope builds towards a dystopian future, whereas a male/female duality would have allowed for a more hopeful ending (though it wouldn't necessarily have guaranteed such, much depends upon the objective of the creators).

 

Starting with the end in mind, had the creators of the lore desired to utilize a male/female duality instead of just the male, they would have still ended up at the same basic place (i.e., the Horus Heresy leading into the Long War and the setting largely as we know it). There may have been some small differences here and there, but they wouldn't necessarily have been substantial.

 

Had the lore creators started with a male/female duality and allowed the setting the develop organically, things might have been very different. Of course, the same could be said if they had started with the male Emperor alone and then worked forward. Players have pointed out any number of illogical things that the Emperor did, not considering the concept that many of the "facts" that we know were shoehorned in, with a significant portion of the lore actually being the result of retroactive continuity.

 

Beyond that, most of the questions posed in the first post build up an alternate reality setting/discussion. That's fine and all, but there's no definitive answer to any of the questions. Pursuing them would be an exercise in futility as each individual's answer (including the OP's) would be driven by their preferences and biases. There are no "facts" to substantiate any one individual's answer over any of the others, so an open-ended discussion is pointless.

[redmapa]

Theres only one Empress and her name is Ephrael Stern!

 

As for the Emperor I think he is a contradictive figure, which is a very human quality, on one hand he is a 50,000 year old immortal that has become inhuman due to his powers and vision and because of that he is far beyond sexuality (doesnt Horus see the Emperor as a queen in the last HH book? He probably has shown himself as female before), on the other hand he is also plagued with very human flaws and hopes. He also covers himself in glamor and glory but still looks as primitive as Conan the barbarian (His younger self). So what is the Emperor at its core? He is what humanity needs him to be so I dont think his sexuality matters in his decisions as what he is is far beyond humanity.