God Emperor and Empress

[Panzer]

I'll bite, but I'm going to ignore the whole pariah line.

 

Would the story have turned out differently if the Emperor (not "God Emperor") had been replaced by a dual male/female team?

 

Almost certainly.

 

That wouldn't necessarily have changed the outcome, however. All it would have changed would have been the specific elements leading to the ultimate outcome.

 

The Warhammer 40,000 setting wasn't created step by step, with causes leading to effects. Rather, the setting was the result of a basic outcome (the grimdark future we sort of know) with the causes filled in over time - some very early, and others appearing over time. The story of the Emperor finds its roots in any number of real world philosophical and religious writings as well as the fictional settings of Michael Moorcock (King-Emperor Huon of the Runestaff Chronicles) and Frank Herbert (Emperor Leto Atreides II), and there are probably many others that draw upon this trope (no need to delve into them as we don't want to get sidetracked). One of the reasons it was likely used was the trope builds towards a dystopian future, whereas a male/female duality would have allowed for a more hopeful ending (though it wouldn't necessarily have guaranteed such, much depends upon the objective of the creators).

 

Starting with the end in mind, had the creators of the lore desired to utilize a male/female duality instead of just the male, they would have still ended up at the same basic place (i.e., the Horus Heresy leading into the Long War and the setting largely as we know it). There may have been some small differences here and there, but they wouldn't necessarily have been substantial.

 

Had the lore creators started with a male/female duality and allowed the setting the develop organically, things might have been very different. Of course, the same could be said if they had started with the male Emperor alone and then worked forward. Players have pointed out any number of illogical things that the Emperor did, not considering the concept that many of the "facts" that we know were shoehorned in, with a significant portion of the lore actually being the result of retroactive continuity.

 

Beyond that, most of the questions posed in the first post build up an alternate reality setting/discussion. That's fine and all, but there's no definitive answer to any of the questions. Pursuing them would be an exercise in futility as each individual's answer (including the OP's) would be driven by their preferences and biases. There are no "facts" to substantiate any one individual's answer over any of the others, so an open-ended discussion is pointless.

 

Exactly this.

40k started out as a setting, not as a story. It is the way it is because GW wanted it to be just like that, not because they had a whole history of events planned out in their minds. How it became the way it is in-universe is completely irrelevant.

The "now" is a fixpoint (well more like the "yesterday", now that it turned into a story that actually gets developed) and no matter from which direction you approach this fixpoint you'd always end up with the same result. Whether it's just the Emperor, a couple, a whole pantheon, a xenos machine or whatever else you could imagine would still lead to the 40k setting we know with only some details changed because that's what was there first. Sure it would have changed a lot of the Horus Heresy stories Black Library added afterwards but that's ancient history in the 40k setting and barely any 40k character can even say for sure what and how things happened except for Chaos Marines and some perpetuals.

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

Would make no difference, instead of father knows best like we have now it would be mother knows best. Business as usual.

 

Hey I wasn't clear enough I meant both an Empress & an Emperor at the same time.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Brother Tyler
Removed off-topic content.

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

It would have made no difference because 1. The Primarchs didn't get raised by the Emperor in the first place and 2. The way things are is how GW wanted things to be.

 

Yeah I know but this is a thought experiment, with a being equal to the Emperor he would have had more time to spend with each primarch.

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

Also the material is called Blackstone, not Noctolith.

Also also the part about being reborn and chosing the body is 110% speculative. We don't even know what kind of perpetual the Emperor is. Some just heal, some just don't age and some get reborn. The Emperor hasn't really died yet so it's impossible to say ... heck for the longest time it wasn't even save to say that he really is a perpetual.

Minor nitpick: noctilith is the Necron name for blackstone. The AdMech may also use the term. I don’t recall.

Pardon the interruption.

[Panzer]

 

Also the material is called Blackstone, not Noctolith.

Also also the part about being reborn and chosing the body is 110% speculative. We don't even know what kind of perpetual the Emperor is. Some just heal, some just don't age and some get reborn. The Emperor hasn't really died yet so it's impossible to say ... heck for the longest time it wasn't even save to say that he really is a perpetual.

Minor nitpick: noctilith is the Necron name for blackstone. The AdMech may also use the term. I don’t recall.

Pardon the interruption.

 

 

Oh I see. Haven't read Necron fluff in a while. Thanks for the clarification.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I edited the thread title to clarify the situation. So the reiterate the scenario is what if the would be a power duo in charge of the Imperium.

[HereticMarine1]

There is still the old fluff of the emperor having offspring. Because of how powerful he is as a psyker it is easy to forget that he was still just a man and not a god.

 

The Emperor never came accross as the type of person who needed a partner for multiple reasons.

[Lord_Caerolion]

To be honest, I don't think it'd make all that much of a difference. By the time you're the age and status of the Emperor, you're so far detached from humanity that I can't see it as having much of an impact. They might put on a bit of a persona in public, playing the parts of the dutiful Emperor and Empress, but the thought-processes behind them are utterly different. There's only so much inhuman power you can have before you start forgetting humanity.

[Quantum]

There is still so much we do not know about the Emperor; we can be sure he had consorts during his long life. Surely they would have played their part in shaping the future, even if their contribution was probably behind the scenes, uncredited and forgotten.

 

Come to think of it, hasn't it been suggested that the seer Moriana (who guided Abaddon to Drach'nyen) was a consort to the Emperor? Who knows what her contributions were before her fall from grace.

[MegaVolt87]

Even with a Rex and Regina rulership of the Imperium, her responsibilities would be just as many as the Emperor himself. He is the kind of guy that puts anyone close to him to work and give responsibilities, even considering how Malcador would help out the Emperor, her responsibility would not be any less and would not have the time to spend with each primarch to the degree you are seeming to think would be of benefit. The Emperor made a lot of time for Horous, made no real difference as a whole, loyalist or traitor primarchs that had little time with the "parents" went their own way anyway- like IRL kids to adults, they make their choices and have to live with the results of their actions and behaviour. 

[Ishagu]

An Empress alongside the Emperor lessens his character. He was lonely, he had no equal in terms of mental capacity and capabilities. It's why he had such a strong connection to Horus, his first found Son, who was as close to an equal in many ways to the Emperor as one could be. It's part of the tragedy and lore.

 

If the Emperor was a woman, I don't feel anything is fundamentally altered. He didn't raise the Primarchs from children to adults.

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

There is still the old fluff of the emperor having offspring. Because of how powerful he is as a psyker it is easy to forget that he was still just a man and not a god.

 

The Emperor never came accross as the type of person who needed a partner for multiple reasons.

I disagree he clearly valued the relationship he had with the custodians, read master of mankind & he mourned the murder of his father by his uncle who he killed afterwards. All humans need companionship, the emperor was no different, I think he regarded the Custodians as his real sons.

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

Even with a Rex and Regina rulership of the Imperium, her responsibilities would be just as many as the Emperor himself. He is the kind of guy that puts anyone close to him to work and give responsibilities, even considering how Malcador would help out the Emperor, her responsibility would not be any less and would not have the time to spend with each primarch to the degree you are seeming to think would be of benefit. The Emperor made a lot of time for Horous, made no real difference as a whole, loyalist or traitor primarchs that had little time with the "parents" went their own way anyway- like IRL kids to adults, they make their choices and have to live with the results of their actions and behaviour.

 

I am assuming he would have someone equal to come to dicesions with and not have to do it all himself, re as a husband and wife do (well the wife gets her way most of the time!!).

 

Hopefully she would knock some sense into him and convince him to tell the primarchs of chaos and avoid the whole bloody mess. All the traitor primarchs had the potential to stay loyal had things been different just as all the loyal ones could have turned traitor, with the possible exception of Dorn and Sangunius.

An Empress alongside the Emperor lessens his character. He was lonely, he had no equal in terms of mental capacity and capabilities. It's why he had such a strong connection to Horus, his first found Son, who was as close to an equal in many ways to the Emperor as one could be. It's part of the tragedy and lore.

If the Emperor was a woman, I don't feel anything is fundamentally altered. He didn't raise the Primarchs from children to adults.

I agree the sex of the Emperor would have made no difference if he/she was alone.

There is still so much we do not know about the Emperor; we can be sure he had consorts during his long life. Surely they would have played their part in shaping the future, even if their contribution was probably behind the scenes, uncredited and forgotten.

 

Come to think of it, hasn't it been suggested that the seer Moriana (who guided Abaddon to Drach'nyen) was a consort to the Emperor? Who knows what her contributions were before her fall from grace.

Where was this mention re Moriana?

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

To be honest, I don't think it'd make all that much of a difference. By the time you're the age and status of the Emperor, you're so far detached from humanity that I can't see it as having much of an impact. They might put on a bit of a persona in public, playing the parts of the dutiful Emperor and Empress, but the thought-processes behind them are utterly different. There's only so much inhuman power you can have before you start forgetting humanity.

In Master Of Mankind he is protrayed as having human emotions of regret, doubt etc, if anytbing he was far more human then a space marine.

[Ishagu]

Also are we saying that a woman would definitely raise the children better than a man would? Or that her leadership style would be different because of her sex?

 

I disagree with such assumptions.

[Quantum]

There is still so much we do not know about the Emperor; we can be sure he had consorts during his long life. Surely they would have played their part in shaping the future, even if their contribution was probably behind the scenes, uncredited and forgotten.

 

Come to think of it, hasn't it been suggested that the seer Moriana (who guided Abaddon to Drach'nyen) was a consort to the Emperor? Who knows what her contributions were before her fall from grace.

Where was this mention re Moriana?

 

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Moriana

 

Of course, as with most interesting tidbits in the lore, these are just rumors and nothing is confirmed.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

To be honest, I don't think it'd make all that much of a difference. By the time you're the age and status of the Emperor, you're so far detached from humanity that I can't see it as having much of an impact. They might put on a bit of a persona in public, playing the parts of the dutiful Emperor and Empress, but the thought-processes behind them are utterly different. There's only so much inhuman power you can have before you start forgetting humanity.

In Master Of Mankind he is protrayed as having human emotions of regret, doubt etc, if anytbing he was far more human then a space marine.

He is indisputably beyond human. He did not care about the Primarchs or the Legions, any more than he did the Thunder Warriors. It is explicit about this in the same book you mention.

[Quantum]

 

To be honest, I don't think it'd make all that much of a difference. By the time you're the age and status of the Emperor, you're so far detached from humanity that I can't see it as having much of an impact. They might put on a bit of a persona in public, playing the parts of the dutiful Emperor and Empress, but the thought-processes behind them are utterly different. There's only so much inhuman power you can have before you start forgetting humanity.

In Master Of Mankind he is protrayed as having human emotions of regret, doubt etc, if anytbing he was far more human then a space marine.

 

 

Ironically, despite being described as superhuman, or even demigods, Space Marines and Primarchs are treated as much more rounded characters (i.e. much more human) than many of the baseline human characters in 40k background material, particularly in GWs own lazy characterization. Case in point, the obsolete Tempestus Scions codex, where progenia and Scions are described to basically be empty shells, with suicidal obedience and flat personality on par with mind-wiped servitors. 

[Ishagu]

In Master of Mankind?

 

My impression is that his beliefs and opinions only mirror what those who observe him think they should be.

 

If the Emperor truly did't care about his sons it makes the whole lore about him and the Primarchs less interesting or special.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

I disagree he clearly valued the relationship he had with the custodians, read master of mankind & he mourned the murder of his father by his uncle who he killed afterwards. All humans need companionship, the emperor was no different, I think he regarded the Custodians as his real sons.

 

Is that a legitimate observation though? All that really tells us is that's what the Custodes were told and believed to be true. MoM and the Heresy series in general (for the worse imo) seems to have established the Emperor as this weird, unfeeling creature with Machiavellian schemes replacing human emotions. The Primarchs thought they were his sons and were clearly valued, a sentiment he seems to have encouraged. Yet the Custodians (the other 'Golden Children') think that was just a lie, the Primarchs are merely tools to used, abused and discarded while they, the Custodians, are the true chosen ones. Why should the Custodians be right and the Primarchs wrong? If Empy was able to fool Horus, Gulliman and Sangy, he certainly could've fooled Ra and Valdor. So I'd say it's entirely plausible that the Custodes were just as much tools as the Primarchs, they just hadn't seen their strings when the Heresy kicked off.

 

Edit: Or that the Custodes were just egotistical s, and Empy did genuinely care for both.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Leif Bearclaw

[Marshal Rohr]

If the Emperor truly did't care about his sons it makes the whole lore about him and the Primarchs less interesting or special.

If only there were other examples of mainstays of 40k lore becoming less interesting and special in the past few years. I just can’t put my finger on it.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

I disagree he clearly valued the relationship he had with the custodians, read master of mankind & he mourned the murder of his father by his uncle who he killed afterwards. All humans need companionship, the emperor was no different, I think he regarded the Custodians as his real sons.

 

Is that a legitimate observation though? All that really tells us is that's what the Custodes were told and believed to be true. MoM and the Heresy series in general (for the worse imo) seems to have established the Emperor as this weird, unfeeling creature with Machiavellian schemes replacing human emotions. The Primarchs thought they were his sons and were clearly valued, a sentiment he seems to have encouraged. Yet the Custodians (the other 'Golden Children') think that was just a lie, the Primarchs are merely tools to used, abused and discarded while they, the Custodians, are the true chosen ones. Why should the Custodians be right and the Primarchs wrong? If Empy was able to fool Horus, Gulliman and Sangy, he certainly could've fooled Ra and Valdor. So I'd say it's entirely plausible that the Custodes were just as much tools as the Primarchs, they just hadn't seen their strings when the Heresy kicked off.

 

Edit: Or that the Custodes were just egotistical s, and Empy did genuinely care for both.

More than likely when L. Goulding took over as editor he pushed to really play up the Heresy as an engineered rebellion angle and they needed there to be some disconnect between the Space Marines, Primarchs, and the Emperor. It makes sense for the Emperor to value the Custodes more than a joe legionary, since he personally makes each one and they protect him with their own lives. In opposition to a random Ultramarine the Emperor has never met. It make sense he’s more detached from the Ultramarine. What doesn’t make sense is him not valuing the loyalists but ADB has strongly come out and said that’s not the case he’s just a detached and inhuman figure and does appreciate that the loyalists did their jobs.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

More than likely when L. Goulding took over as editor he pushed to really play up the Heresy as an engineered rebellion angle and they needed there to be some disconnect between the Space Marines, Primarchs, and the Emperor. It makes sense for the Emperor to value the Custodes more than a joe legionary, since he personally makes each one and they protect him with their own lives. In opposition to a random Ultramarine the Emperor has never met. It make sense he’s more detached from the Ultramarine. What doesn’t make sense is him not valuing the loyalists but ADB has strongly come out and said that’s not the case he’s just a detached and inhuman figure and does appreciate that the loyalists did their jobs.

 

I agree when it comes to Marines, but I was talking about Primarchs. It appears that both the Primarchs and Custodes regarded themselves as the Emperor's 'Sons', and the Emperor did nothing to dissuade this attitude in either group. And if the Emperor is all about 'telling people what they want to hear' (which is the impression I've gotten from discussions around MoM in particular) then why do we assume what the Custodes think is the actual truth, rather than merely what Empy wants the Custodes to think is true. Why assume he'd tell the truth to the Custodes, when he lies to literally everyone else, just because the Custodes themselves believe they're the super special chosen boys?

 

This is part of why I don't like what they've done with the Emperor . It's just a mess.

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

Also are we saying that a woman would definitely raise the children better than a man would? Or that her leadership style would be different because of her sex?

 

I disagree with such assumptions.

Not at all, just that the Primarch would benefit greatly from having BOTH a father & mother figure as they were basically god like children.

[HereticMarine1]

 

If the Emperor truly did't care about his sons it makes the whole lore about him and the Primarchs less interesting or special.

If only there were other examples of mainstays of 40k lore becoming less interesting and special in the past few years. I just can’t put my finger on it.

 

 

He comes off as a bit sociopathic imo in the recent bit of stuff i have read. Then again you don't become an emperor by being a nice person, the imperium was a bit of a tyrannical and imperialistic empire during the great crusade for anyone who disagreed with them or wasnt human then it became an totalitarian ultra religious empire, He was always a tyrant.