God Emperor and Empress

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

We're getting slightly off topic. This topic is about how the overall story may have been different had there been an Emperor and Empress instead of just the Emperor.

 

Cool discussion though and I really appreciate everyone contributing in a civil manner!!  Bascially I see the Primarchs as god like children with stunted emotions, which they can only express though violence. 

 

I find Petruabo one of the most tragic, one of the Primarch books, shows him in a totally different light to how he has ever been protrayed before, he actually cared for humans and chastised an astartes for saying that they should leave the world to rot.  Can't remember the exact words but he sounded like Vulkan, well until the end of the book when it goes pear shaped and he breaks a Naval officer in half over his knee. 

 

I really liked that as it showed how he slowly became more and more bitter as the crusade progressed, but the decimation of his legion makes no sense in this case, unless he was bitter when found, softed initially as he liberated worlds, then ultimately became more bitter as his legion was bled dry.

[Ishagu]

I'm not sure the majority of Primarchs had stunted emotions at all?

 

Guilliman and Dorn certainly didn't. They aren't like the Space Marines.

 

Some of them were overly emotional but that could be linked to pride and self importance.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Ishagu

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

 

 

The Emperor spoke like a robot to the leaders of the Mechanicum and addressed people as numerical values. He hated the Primarchs and only valued the Custodes... when he spoke with them. He loved his sons above all others, when he addressed them. He only trusted Malcador's council, when he was conversing with him.

It's hard to see what he really thought.

 

I don't think he was being a "dick" to any of the Primarchs. He teleported Angron away, probably because the planetary leaders had already agreed to join the Imperium thus putting Angron's little rebellion on the wrong side. Also what value did a few uneducated, brain damaged gladiators living on borrowed time have? It's cruel in a sense, don't get me wrong, but he can't right every wrong.

Disagree he was very inconsistent with how he treated each Primarch on finding them, I guess the reason being as the crusade progressed he had less time to spend on them. It is mentioned in one of the novels he could have removed the nails from Angron but choose not to. No the leaders of that world were not even aware of the Emperor from memory when he teleported Angron away, I think he was just pissed of Angron told him to bugger off, again evidence he was a man at the end of the day.

He couldn't remove them without killing him. He even sought help from Arhan Land on the matter

 

I could be wrong but I clearly remember him telling Land somelike "Of course I could remove them", whether that means he didn't want to, had no time to or did not want to risk killing Angron in the attempt is unknown, but I think he could have just chose not to as at that stage of the crusade he just needed another Primarch and Angron as he was found was how do I say? compatable with the warhounds.

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

I'm not sure the majority of Primarchs had stunted emotions at all?

 

Guilliman and Dorn certainly didn't. They aren't like the Space Marines.

 

Some of them were overly emotional but that could be linked to pride and self importance.

Yes they were all different, some were more stunted then others, Sanguinius was not at all though for example.  I actually find Dorn somewhat emotionless but utterly loyal.  Stunted is not the right word I meant childlike, in many ways they were just Superhuman children, take Mortarion for example he was upset & resentful like a 12 year old for the Emperor killing his father, that was pathetic that he didn't grow out of that grudge. 

 

Hence why I think had the Emperor actually made more of an effort to raise them as children into "adulthood" they would have matured and acted like adults rather then rebel (like all teenagers).

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

This Empress we're talking about. Is she also a trans-human God-like being or just a woman?

If she was created the same way as the Emperor isn't she more like a sibling?

 

Does her existence change the way the Primarchs were created? Are they no longer individual aspects of the Emperor's being?

No she is the female version of the Emperor a transhuman god like being, yes a sibling is what I meant.  If they are twins they have the same genes and this does not affect the primarchs, they are individual aspects of both them, but there is no difference between the 2 other then one having more female traits, I'm trying to allude to how children in the real world have a more balanced childhood when they have both a mother and father.

 

And NO female space marines, women are already represented in 40k more then ever with the sister of silence and always have been with the sisters of battle (just get rid of the boob armour, it's stupid as tits are not rigid) & the guants ghosts etc.

 

One of my favorite characters is Ana Curth for example.

Edited May 2, 2019 by The God Empress Of Mankind

[Captain Idaho]

I always find it mildly amusing when folk say the Emperor mistreated Angron by not saving his slaves. Those abominations were techno-barbarians designed to fight and kill (look at Pitslaves in Necromunda) and they slaughtered and destroyed entire cities before being hounded to the mountains.

 

Do people really think those creatures were worth saving or even it was a good idea to save them?

 

That's not to say The Emperor didn't regard them as tools, certainly Guilliman was offended by the revelation in his discussion with the Emperor in Dark Imperium, but let's not pretend each Primarch isn't a poor innocent victim of an uncaring father, as it belittles the super intellect Primarch to quite the pathetic creature.

 

Which is ironic as often fans of certain Chaos Primarchs cite their favourite being mistreated by their father as justification of terrible choices and deeds, yet that excuse renders said Primarch as pretty pathetic.

[Brother Casman]

In general we don't want to delve too deeply into the "real world" here - let's keep it focused on the game setting(s).

[Marshal Rohr]

I always find it mildly amusing when folk say the Emperor mistreated Angron by not saving his slaves. Those abominations were techno-barbarians designed to fight and kill (look at Pitslaves in Necromunda) and they slaughtered and destroyed entire cities before being hounded to the mountains.

 

Do people really think those creatures were worth saving or even it was a good idea to save them?

 

That's not to say The Emperor didn't regard them as tools, certainly Guilliman was offended by the revelation in his discussion with the Emperor in Dark Imperium, but let's not pretend each Primarch isn't a poor innocent victim of an uncaring father, as it belittles the super intellect Primarch to quite the pathetic creature.

 

Which is ironic as often fans of certain Chaos Primarchs cite their favourite being mistreated by their father as justification of terrible choices and deeds, yet that excuse renders said Primarch as pretty pathetic.

 

 

The real conspiracy is that Guilliman had already negotiated for Nuceria's compliance, and knew what Angron was and petitioned the Emperor not to intervene on his behalf ;)

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

 

 

 

 

He is not a man in any concept that applies to what you are talking about though.

I disagree he was born a normal child, mourned his father & took revenge on his killer.  He obviously changed as he aged, however he was still and always was a man, I see glimpses of loss, regret etc in Master of Mankind, he just didn't let them affect him and always moved forward.   

 

The fact the heresy even happened is evidence he as not infallible like any other man.

 

 

We don't know if that vision of the child and his uncle was real, if it was simply a fraction of the Emperor's gestalt being. That isnt evidence for your point. The Heresy is a political conflict, it isn't the Emperor's fault and has no bearing on his fallibility. 

 

 

No that was real it's explicantly said this was the "first murder", the very first time a human killed another for personal gain in cold blood (I think it was his uncle coveted his mother from memory could be wrong though), this act resonanted in the warp and spawned the daemon Drach'nyen.

 

 

Whoa, way off base and incorrect here. He explicitly says to Ra people have been murdering each other long before the murder from the vision. He said its the first murder that resonates with him and makes him think people must be ruled. The vision might have been real, it might not have been real, it might have been simply one of the Emperor's many existences, or it could be one of the existences of the Shaman's that made up his consciousness in older lore. The vision is 100% not in any way verified to either have or not have happened.

 

No killing each other for survival NOT in cold blood for personal gain, theres a huge difference, here you go, clearly says first murder.  This was the Emperors uncle killing his brother the Emperor's father.  The Emperor then killed him which I guess was the 2nd murder.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Drach%27nyen

 

 

The First Murder

Drach'nyen was born at the moment of the first murder - the first time a human killed another human outside of the need to survive. The name Drach'nyen, which can be translated as the End of Empires^[4b], is an approximation of the scream of the first murderer and that of the brother he murdered.

 

So it must have happened to spawn the Daemon.

 

Shaman lore is yet to be explored in the novels yet?  Unless I missed it?  All we know so far is that the Emperor was born a normal human child.

Edited May 2, 2019 by The God Empress Of Mankind

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

 

He is not a man in any concept that applies to what you are talking about though.

I disagree he was born a normal child, mourned his father & took revenge on his killer.  He obviously changed as he aged, however he was still and always was a man, I see glimpses of loss, regret etc in Master of Mankind, he just didn't let them affect him and always moved forward.   

 

The fact the heresy even happened is evidence he as not infallible like any other man.

 

 

We don't know if that vision of the child and his uncle was real, if it was simply a fraction of the Emperor's gestalt being. That isnt evidence for your point. The Heresy is a political conflict, it isn't the Emperor's fault and has no bearing on his fallibility. 

 

 

No that was real it's explicantly said this was the "first murder", the very first time a human killed another for personal gain in cold blood (I think it was his uncle coveted his mother from memory could be wrong though), this act resonanted in the warp and spawned the daemon Drach'nyen.

 

 

Whoa, way off base and incorrect here. He explicitly says to Ra people have been murdering each other long before the murder from the vision. He said its the first murder that resonates with him and makes him think people must be ruled. The vision might have been real, it might not have been real, it might have been simply one of the Emperor's many existences, or it could be one of the existences of the Shaman's that made up his consciousness in older lore. The vision is 100% not in any way verified to either have or not have happened.

 

No killing each other for survival NOT in cold blood for personal gain, theres a huge difference, here you go, clearly says first murder.  This was the Emperors uncle killing his brother the Emperor's father.  The Emperor then killed him which I guess was the 2nd murder.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Drach%27nyen

 

 

The First Murder

Drach'nyen was born at the moment of the first murder - the first time a human killed another human outside of the need to survive. The name Drach'nyen, which can be translated as the End of Empires^[4b], is an approximation of the scream of the first murderer and that of the brother he murdered.

 

 

Don't use a wiki as evidence when I am citing the literal book. You are flatly wrong. The Emperor says there were murders before this one in the vision. 

[Ishagu]

I don't subscribe to the Primarchs being childlike in any way. Where is this ever described as being the case?

 

Astartes are literally children who are modified into transhimans. The Primarchs are beings who grow naturally and have a very good grasp on matters of science, politics, emotions and philosophy. Some of them might not be well adjusted but that is a product of their environment and not the fact that they are Primarchs.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Ishagu

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

 

 

 

 

 

 

He is not a man in any concept that applies to what you are talking about though.

I disagree he was born a normal child, mourned his father & took revenge on his killer.  He obviously changed as he aged, however he was still and always was a man, I see glimpses of loss, regret etc in Master of Mankind, he just didn't let them affect him and always moved forward.   

 

The fact the heresy even happened is evidence he as not infallible like any other man.

 

 

We don't know if that vision of the child and his uncle was real, if it was simply a fraction of the Emperor's gestalt being. That isnt evidence for your point. The Heresy is a political conflict, it isn't the Emperor's fault and has no bearing on his fallibility. 

 

 

No that was real it's explicantly said this was the "first murder", the very first time a human killed another for personal gain in cold blood (I think it was his uncle coveted his mother from memory could be wrong though), this act resonanted in the warp and spawned the daemon Drach'nyen.

 

 

Whoa, way off base and incorrect here. He explicitly says to Ra people have been murdering each other long before the murder from the vision. He said its the first murder that resonates with him and makes him think people must be ruled. The vision might have been real, it might not have been real, it might have been simply one of the Emperor's many existences, or it could be one of the existences of the Shaman's that made up his consciousness in older lore. The vision is 100% not in any way verified to either have or not have happened.

 

No killing each other for survival NOT in cold blood for personal gain, theres a huge difference, here you go, clearly says first murder.  This was the Emperors uncle killing his brother the Emperor's father.  The Emperor then killed him which I guess was the 2nd murder.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Drach%27nyen

 

 

The First Murder

Drach'nyen was born at the moment of the first murder - the first time a human killed another human outside of the need to survive. The name Drach'nyen, which can be translated as the End of Empires^[4b], is an approximation of the scream of the first murderer and that of the brother he murdered.

 

 

Don't use a wiki as evidence when I am citing the literal book. You are flatly wrong. The Emperor says there were murders before this one in the vision. 

 

 

I consider Lexi as a reliable source & I am citing the book I have read it like 6 times, it says killing, MURDER for personal gain is different to killing for survival.  The fact remains is says "first murder", so unless you dispute the origin of Drach'nyen which I don't as it's clearly in the novel.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He is not a man in any concept that applies to what you are talking about though.

I disagree he was born a normal child, mourned his father & took revenge on his killer.  He obviously changed as he aged, however he was still and always was a man, I see glimpses of loss, regret etc in Master of Mankind, he just didn't let them affect him and always moved forward.   

 

The fact the heresy even happened is evidence he as not infallible like any other man.

 

 

We don't know if that vision of the child and his uncle was real, if it was simply a fraction of the Emperor's gestalt being. That isnt evidence for your point. The Heresy is a political conflict, it isn't the Emperor's fault and has no bearing on his fallibility. 

 

 

No that was real it's explicantly said this was the "first murder", the very first time a human killed another for personal gain in cold blood (I think it was his uncle coveted his mother from memory could be wrong though), this act resonanted in the warp and spawned the daemon Drach'nyen.

 

 

Whoa, way off base and incorrect here. He explicitly says to Ra people have been murdering each other long before the murder from the vision. He said its the first murder that resonates with him and makes him think people must be ruled. The vision might have been real, it might not have been real, it might have been simply one of the Emperor's many existences, or it could be one of the existences of the Shaman's that made up his consciousness in older lore. The vision is 100% not in any way verified to either have or not have happened.

 

No killing each other for survival NOT in cold blood for personal gain, theres a huge difference, here you go, clearly says first murder.  This was the Emperors uncle killing his brother the Emperor's father.  The Emperor then killed him which I guess was the 2nd murder.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Drach%27nyen

 

 

The First Murder

Drach'nyen was born at the moment of the first murder - the first time a human killed another human outside of the need to survive. The name Drach'nyen, which can be translated as the End of Empires^[4b], is an approximation of the scream of the first murderer and that of the brother he murdered.

 

 

Don't use a wiki as evidence when I am citing the literal book. You are flatly wrong. The Emperor says there were murders before this one in the vision. 

 

 

I consider Lexi as a reliable source & I am citing the book I have read it like 6 times, it says killing, MURDER for personal gain is different to killing for survival.  The fact remains is says "first murder", so unless you dispute the origin of Drach'nyen which I don't as it's clearly in the novel.

 

 

You're wrong. If ADB still came around he'd tell you the same. 

 

“‘You watched that man die, did you not?’ Ra looked back over his shoulder, where the village folk were gathered around the fallen man, weeping and comforting in a loose, unwashed herd.

‘I did.’ ‘That was my uncle. My father’s brother.’

‘You killed him,’ the Custodian said without judgement.

‘Yes. He struck my father from behind with a piece of sharpened bronze too poorly made to even be called a knife. Men had killed one another for generations before my birth, but this was the first slaying that had resonance to me, that changed my existence. It was illuminating.’

*He paused for a moment, following Ra’s gaze back to the noisy villagers. * ‘The very first murder was also a fratricide,’ he said without emotion. ‘Thousands of years before this, when men and women still owed as much to apes as to the form we know now.”

Edited May 2, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Karhedron]

It doesn't my point was he didn't have to be a dick to some of them when he found them, why the hell didn't he send warhound drop pods to save Angrons brothers & sisters? I always assumed Angrons companions were corrupted by chaos &/or Aliens (eg. that woman with the "shriek spear" I assumed was a dark eldar skyboard rider), the primarchs short story said otherwise, they were just normal humans.

I am sure I remember reading somewhere that Nuceria has accepted Imperial compliance without bloodshed and the Emperor didn't want to unleash the Astartes on a Compliant world. I can't remember what book that was in though (or if I am mis-remembering something else ).

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

I don't subscribe to the Primarchs being childlike in any way. Where is this ever described as being the case?

 

Astartes are literally children who are modified into transhimans. The Primarchs are beings who grow naturally and have a very good grasp on matters of science, politics, emotions and philosophy. Some of them might not be well adjusted but that is a product of their environment and not the fact that they are Primarchs.

 

Sorry should have explained better, in terms of emotional development, they act like children (some more so then others) which I put down to their rapid growth, they simply did NOT have a childhood to develope into adults.

 

It doesn't my point was he didn't have to be a dick to some of them when he found them, why the hell didn't he send warhound drop pods to save Angrons brothers & sisters? I always assumed Angrons companions were corrupted by chaos &/or Aliens (eg. that woman with the "shriek spear" I assumed was a dark eldar skyboard rider), the primarchs short story said otherwise, they were just normal humans.

I am sure I remember reading somewhere that Nuceria has accepted Imperial compliance without bloodshed and the Emperor didn't want to unleash the Astartes on a Compliant world. I can't remember what book that was in though (or if I am mis-remembering something else ).

 

 

You could be right but I'm going off the most recent source being the Primarchs short story, I need to read it again.

[Ishagu]

Maybe when they were younger, but I don't get that impression of them by the time the Emperor finds them and they are introduced to us. Most are 200+ in any lore than talks about them.

 

Sure, the Lion isn't overly social, as an example, but he grew up without human contact for a while.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Ishagu

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He is not a man in any concept that applies to what you are talking about though.

I disagree he was born a normal child, mourned his father & took revenge on his killer.  He obviously changed as he aged, however he was still and always was a man, I see glimpses of loss, regret etc in Master of Mankind, he just didn't let them affect him and always moved forward.   

 

The fact the heresy even happened is evidence he as not infallible like any other man.

 

 

We don't know if that vision of the child and his uncle was real, if it was simply a fraction of the Emperor's gestalt being. That isnt evidence for your point. The Heresy is a political conflict, it isn't the Emperor's fault and has no bearing on his fallibility. 

 

 

No that was real it's explicantly said this was the "first murder", the very first time a human killed another for personal gain in cold blood (I think it was his uncle coveted his mother from memory could be wrong though), this act resonanted in the warp and spawned the daemon Drach'nyen.

 

 

Whoa, way off base and incorrect here. He explicitly says to Ra people have been murdering each other long before the murder from the vision. He said its the first murder that resonates with him and makes him think people must be ruled. The vision might have been real, it might not have been real, it might have been simply one of the Emperor's many existences, or it could be one of the existences of the Shaman's that made up his consciousness in older lore. The vision is 100% not in any way verified to either have or not have happened.

 

No killing each other for survival NOT in cold blood for personal gain, theres a huge difference, here you go, clearly says first murder.  This was the Emperors uncle killing his brother the Emperor's father.  The Emperor then killed him which I guess was the 2nd murder.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Drach%27nyen

 

 

The First Murder

Drach'nyen was born at the moment of the first murder - the first time a human killed another human outside of the need to survive. The name Drach'nyen, which can be translated as the End of Empires^[4b], is an approximation of the scream of the first murderer and that of the brother he murdered.

 

 

Don't use a wiki as evidence when I am citing the literal book. You are flatly wrong. The Emperor says there were murders before this one in the vision. 

 

 

I consider Lexi as a reliable source & I am citing the book I have read it like 6 times, it says killing, MURDER for personal gain is different to killing for survival.  The fact remains is says "first murder", so unless you dispute the origin of Drach'nyen which I don't as it's clearly in the novel.

 

 

You're wrong. If ADB still came around he'd tell you the same. 

 

We will agree to disagree then & thats why I like 40k as you can have your version and I will have mine.  I still consider Lexi reliable though, I think you might be misunderstading the concept of killing to survive & killing in cold blood for personal advancement.

Edited May 2, 2019 by The God Empress Of Mankind

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He is not a man in any concept that applies to what you are talking about though.

I disagree he was born a normal child, mourned his father & took revenge on his killer.  He obviously changed as he aged, however he was still and always was a man, I see glimpses of loss, regret etc in Master of Mankind, he just didn't let them affect him and always moved forward.   

 

The fact the heresy even happened is evidence he as not infallible like any other man.

 

 

We don't know if that vision of the child and his uncle was real, if it was simply a fraction of the Emperor's gestalt being. That isnt evidence for your point. The Heresy is a political conflict, it isn't the Emperor's fault and has no bearing on his fallibility. 

 

 

No that was real it's explicantly said this was the "first murder", the very first time a human killed another for personal gain in cold blood (I think it was his uncle coveted his mother from memory could be wrong though), this act resonanted in the warp and spawned the daemon Drach'nyen.

 

 

Whoa, way off base and incorrect here. He explicitly says to Ra people have been murdering each other long before the murder from the vision. He said its the first murder that resonates with him and makes him think people must be ruled. The vision might have been real, it might not have been real, it might have been simply one of the Emperor's many existences, or it could be one of the existences of the Shaman's that made up his consciousness in older lore. The vision is 100% not in any way verified to either have or not have happened.

 

No killing each other for survival NOT in cold blood for personal gain, theres a huge difference, here you go, clearly says first murder.  This was the Emperors uncle killing his brother the Emperor's father.  The Emperor then killed him which I guess was the 2nd murder.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Drach%27nyen

 

 

The First Murder

Drach'nyen was born at the moment of the first murder - the first time a human killed another human outside of the need to survive. The name Drach'nyen, which can be translated as the End of Empires^[4b], is an approximation of the scream of the first murderer and that of the brother he murdered.

 

 

Don't use a wiki as evidence when I am citing the literal book. You are flatly wrong. The Emperor says there were murders before this one in the vision. 

 

 

I consider Lexi as a reliable source & I am citing the book I have read it like 6 times, it says killing, MURDER for personal gain is different to killing for survival.  The fact remains is says "first murder", so unless you dispute the origin of Drach'nyen which I don't as it's clearly in the novel.

 

 

You're wrong. If ADB still came around he'd tell you the same. 

 

We will agree to disagree then & thats why I like 40k as you can have your version and I will have mine.  I still consider Lexi reliable though, I think you might be insulting everyone who contributes to it as their is no fan lore on there.

 

 

No we won't agree to disagree, you're wrong. Here is the passage. It's not up for debate. You're interweaving your very unusual head canon with actual facts and anyone who reads this in passing needs to know your opinions are counterfactual or speculative. 

 

“‘You watched that man die, did you not?’ Ra looked back over his shoulder, where the village folk were gathered around the fallen man, weeping and comforting in a loose, unwashed herd.

‘I did.’ ‘That was my uncle. My father’s brother.’

‘You killed him,’ the Custodian said without judgement.

‘Yes. He struck my father from behind with a piece of sharpened bronze too poorly made to even be called a knife. Men had killed one another for generations before my birth, but this was the first slaying that had resonance to me, that changed my existence. It was illuminating.’

*He paused for a moment, following Ra’s gaze back to the noisy villagers. * ‘The very first murder was also a fratricide,’ he said without emotion. ‘Thousands of years before this, when men and women still owed as much to apes as to the form we know now.”

Edited May 2, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Ishagu]

So Drach'nyen was made when a monkey killed a monkey?

[Karhedron]

Hence why I think had the Emperor actually made more of an effort to raise them as children into "adulthood" they would have matured and acted like adults rather then rebel (like all teenagers).

I think the problem was that the Emperor probably did plan to raise them properly but then Chaos intervened and scattered them. The Emperor found them all grown up without his guidance and shaped to a large degree by whatever world they landed on. He recognised that some of them were more damaged than others but had to work with what he had. The Great Crusade was a race against time to establish the Imperium before another race like the Orks expanded to fill the power vacuum created by the Fall of the Eldar.

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

Maybe when they were younger, but I don't get that impression of them by the time the Emperor finds them and they are introduced to us. Most are 200+ in any lore than talks about them.

 

Sure, the Lion isn't overly social, as an example, but he grew up without human contact for a while.

 

I don't I mean Mortarion holding that grudge for so long, that's pathetic he would have died, I think it's mentioned somewhere that they are like children from several baseline humans point of view, maybe one was the rembrancer Horus snapped the neck of at the start?

 

And Fulgrim really was pathetic he was like a petulant 6 year old.

Edited May 2, 2019 by The God Empress Of Mankind

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

 

Hence why I think had the Emperor actually made more of an effort to raise them as children into "adulthood" they would have matured and acted like adults rather then rebel (like all teenagers).

I think the problem was that the Emperor probably did plan to raise them properly but then Chaos intervened and scattered them. The Emperor found them all grown up without his guidance and shaped to a large degree by whatever world they landed on. He recognised that some of them were more damaged than others but had to work with what he had. The Great Crusade was a race against time to establish the Imperium before another race like the Orks expanded to fill the power vacuum created by the Fall of the Eldar.

 

 

Yes exactly!! But what I am saying is if there was an Empress who could also give them guidance they might have been more balaced, he did spend what was it 2 years with Mortarion after he was found?

[Karhedron]

So Drach'nyen was made when a monkey killed a monkey?

Not monkeys but a more primitive hominid than Homo Sapiens. Earlier killings had obviously happened but this was the first pre-medidated, cold-blooded murder.

[Ishagu]

@ The God Empress Of Mankind

 

That's just someone's impression though. And some of them just had that kind of personality lol

Some of them were pretty pompous.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Ishagu

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

So Drach'nyen was made when a monkey killed a monkey?

 

Well basically, it's in Master of Mankind, the first time a member of the species of mankind killed another ot to survive but for personal advancement.  When you think about it this would REALLY have happened at some point in the real world.