God Emperor and Empress

[Marshal Rohr]

 

Also are we saying that a woman would definitely raise the children better than a man would? Or that her leadership style would be different because of her sex?

 

I disagree with such assumptions.

Not at all, just that the Primarch would benefit greatly from having BOTH a father & mother figure as they were basically god like children.

 

 

How does that solve the problem of the Primarchs being scattered before birth

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

If the Emperor truly did't care about his sons it makes the whole lore about him and the Primarchs less interesting or special.

If only there were other examples of mainstays of 40k lore becoming less interesting and special in the past few years. I just can’t put my finger on it.

He comes off as a bit sociopathic imo in the recent bit of stuff i have read. Then again you don't become an emperor by being a nice person, the imperium was a bit of a tyrannical and imperialistic empire during the great crusade for anyone who disagreed with them or wasnt human then it became an totalitarian ultra religious empire, He was always a tyrant.

When the survival of mankind is at stake the ends justify the means, he did what he had to, this doesn't mean he would act in the same manner once Mankinds survival was garanteed. Personally as Sigismund said, the great crusade would NEVER end we would be fighting to hold what we had conquered and the Milky Way is not the only galaxy.

 

 

 

 

Also are we saying that a woman would definitely raise the children better than a man would? Or that her leadership style would be different because of her sex?

 

I disagree with such assumptions.

Not at all, just that the Primarch would benefit greatly from having BOTH a father & mother figure as they were basically god like children.

How does that solve the problem of the Primarchs being scattered before birth

It doesn't my point was he didn't have to be a dick to some of them when he found them, why the hell didn't he send warhound drop pods to save Angrons brothers & sisters? I always assumed Angrons companions were corrupted by chaos &/or Aliens (eg. that woman with the "shriek spear" I assumed was a dark eldar skyboard rider), the primarchs short story said otherwise, they were just normal humans.

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

 

 

More than likely when L. Goulding took over as editor he pushed to really play up the Heresy as an engineered rebellion angle and they needed there to be some disconnect between the Space Marines, Primarchs, and the Emperor. It makes sense for the Emperor to value the Custodes more than a joe legionary, since he personally makes each one and they protect him with their own lives. In opposition to a random Ultramarine the Emperor has never met. It make sense he’s more detached from the Ultramarine. What doesn’t make sense is him not valuing the loyalists but ADB has strongly come out and said that’s not the case he’s just a detached and inhuman figure and does appreciate that the loyalists did their jobs.

 

I agree when it comes to Marines, but I was talking about Primarchs. It appears that both the Primarchs and Custodes regarded themselves as the Emperor's 'Sons', and the Emperor did nothing to dissuade this attitude in either group. And if the Emperor is all about 'telling people what they want to hear' (which is the impression I've gotten from discussions around MoM in particular) then why do we assume what the Custodes think is the actual truth, rather than merely what Empy wants the Custodes to think is true. Why assume he'd tell the truth to the Custodes, when he lies to literally everyone else, just because the Custodes themselves believe they're the super special chosen boys?

 

This is part of why I don't like what they've done with the Emperor . It's just a mess.

 

 

No I believe he really did regard the Custodians as well maybe sons is the wrong word but he did value them above all others and not just as tools, don't forget he had the names of the 3 that fell in one of the battles engraved in  his armour.  Did that mean he valued all of them that way no but he clearly valued Ra Endymion and mourned his loss at his own hand. 

 

I consider the Emperor to be the PERFECT example of an IMPERFECT species just as he was capable of any act that would preserve mankind, he also had the emotions of a human, he was just able to suppress them in nearly all circumstances.

[HereticMarine1]

 

 

 

If the Emperor truly did't care about his sons it makes the whole lore about him and the Primarchs less interesting or special.

If only there were other examples of mainstays of 40k lore becoming less interesting and special in the past few years. I just can’t put my finger on it.

 

 

He comes off as a bit sociopathic imo in the recent bit of stuff i have read. Then again you don't become an emperor by being a nice person, the imperium was a bit of a tyrannical and imperialistic empire during the great crusade for anyone who disagreed with them or wasnt human then it became an totalitarian ultra religious empire, He was always a tyrant.

 

 

When the survival of mankind is at stake the ends justify the means, he did what he had to, this doesn't mean he would act in the same manner once Mankinds survival was garanteed.  Personally as Sigismund said, the great crusade would NEVER end we would be fighting to hold what we had conquered and the Milky Way is not the only galaxy.

 

 

 

 

Many in history tried to justify atrocities by saying it was for the greater good or for the survival of a race, it doesn't make him any less of a murderer or tyrant.

 

This is what i like about the setting, the emperor was more enlightened with reason and science compared to chaos and and the later imperium but he was still a really horrible person looking at the bigger picture, there really is no ''good'' guys. I would imagine he would use an empress as a tool for his own gain too.

[Hrvat]

On the matter of Moriana handmaiden =/= consort. It means she was an attendant aka close servant of the Emperor. 

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

More than likely when L. Goulding took over as editor he pushed to really play up the Heresy as an engineered rebellion angle and they needed there to be some disconnect between the Space Marines, Primarchs, and the Emperor. It makes sense for the Emperor to value the Custodes more than a joe legionary, since he personally makes each one and they protect him with their own lives. In opposition to a random Ultramarine the Emperor has never met. It make sense he’s more detached from the Ultramarine. What doesn’t make sense is him not valuing the loyalists but ADB has strongly come out and said that’s not the case he’s just a detached and inhuman figure and does appreciate that the loyalists did their jobs.

 

I agree when it comes to Marines, but I was talking about Primarchs. It appears that both the Primarchs and Custodes regarded themselves as the Emperor's 'Sons', and the Emperor did nothing to dissuade this attitude in either group. And if the Emperor is all about 'telling people what they want to hear' (which is the impression I've gotten from discussions around MoM in particular) then why do we assume what the Custodes think is the actual truth, rather than merely what Empy wants the Custodes to think is true. Why assume he'd tell the truth to the Custodes, when he lies to literally everyone else, just because the Custodes themselves believe they're the super special chosen boys?

 

This is part of why I don't like what they've done with the Emperor . It's just a mess.

 

 

No I believe he really did regard the Custodians as well maybe sons is the wrong word but he did value them above all others and not just as tools, don't forget he had the names of the 3 that fell in one of the battles engraved in  his armour.  Did that mean he valued all of them that way no but he clearly valued Ra Endymion and mourned his loss at his own hand. 

 

I consider the Emperor to be the PERFECT example of an IMPERFECT species just as he was capable of any act that would preserve mankind, he also had the emotions of a human, he was just able to suppress them in nearly all circumstances.

 

 

That is headcanon, though. It is your own issues and interpretations of the Emperor. As Lief points out, he might've been blowing smoke up the Custodes :cuss as well. There is no way to know. 

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

 

 

I disagree he clearly valued the relationship he had with the custodians, read master of mankind & he mourned the murder of his father by his uncle who he killed afterwards. All humans need companionship, the emperor was no different, I think he regarded the Custodians as his real sons.

 

Is that a legitimate observation though? All that really tells us is that's what the Custodes were told and believed to be true. MoM and the Heresy series in general (for the worse imo) seems to have established the Emperor as this weird, unfeeling creature with Machiavellian schemes replacing human emotions. The Primarchs thought they were his sons and were clearly valued, a sentiment he seems to have encouraged. Yet the Custodians (the other 'Golden Children') think that was just a lie, the Primarchs are merely tools to used, abused and discarded while they, the Custodians, are the true chosen ones. Why should the Custodians be right and the Primarchs wrong? If Empy was able to fool Horus, Gulliman and Sangy, he certainly could've fooled Ra and Valdor. So I'd say it's entirely plausible that the Custodes were just as much tools as the Primarchs, they just hadn't seen their strings when the Heresy kicked off.

 

Edit: Or that the Custodes were just egotistical s, and Empy did genuinely care for both.

 

He clearly regarded Horus as a son, I like to think Sanguinus to.

 

 

 

 

More than likely when L. Goulding took over as editor he pushed to really play up the Heresy as an engineered rebellion angle and they needed there to be some disconnect between the Space Marines, Primarchs, and the Emperor. It makes sense for the Emperor to value the Custodes more than a joe legionary, since he personally makes each one and they protect him with their own lives. In opposition to a random Ultramarine the Emperor has never met. It make sense he’s more detached from the Ultramarine. What doesn’t make sense is him not valuing the loyalists but ADB has strongly come out and said that’s not the case he’s just a detached and inhuman figure and does appreciate that the loyalists did their jobs.

 

I agree when it comes to Marines, but I was talking about Primarchs. It appears that both the Primarchs and Custodes regarded themselves as the Emperor's 'Sons', and the Emperor did nothing to dissuade this attitude in either group. And if the Emperor is all about 'telling people what they want to hear' (which is the impression I've gotten from discussions around MoM in particular) then why do we assume what the Custodes think is the actual truth, rather than merely what Empy wants the Custodes to think is true. Why assume he'd tell the truth to the Custodes, when he lies to literally everyone else, just because the Custodes themselves believe they're the super special chosen boys?

 

This is part of why I don't like what they've done with the Emperor . It's just a mess.

 

 

No I believe he really did regard the Custodians as well maybe sons is the wrong word but he did value them above all others and not just as tools, don't forget he had the names of the 3 that fell in one of the battles engraved in  his armour.  Did that mean he valued all of them that way no but he clearly valued Ra Endymion and mourned his loss at his own hand. 

 

I consider the Emperor to be the PERFECT example of an IMPERFECT species just as he was capable of any act that would preserve mankind, he also had the emotions of a human, he was just able to suppress them in nearly all circumstances.

 

 

That is headcanon, though. It is your own issues and interpretations of the Emperor. As Lief points out, he might've been blowing smoke up the Custodes as well. There is no way to know. 

 

& thats the beauty of 40k as a setting, you can interpret it the way you choose!!  My 40k is not the same as yours, etc.  I guess we will find out morein the coming Solar War books.

[Panzer]

 

Also are we saying that a woman would definitely raise the children better than a man would? Or that her leadership style would be different because of her sex?

 

I disagree with such assumptions.

Not at all, just that the Primarch would benefit greatly from having BOTH a father & mother figure as they were basically god like children.

 

 

But the thing is that they had their parents on the planets they grew up on. The Emperor was never really like a father to them and had no hand in raising them at all.

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

 

 

 

 

If the Emperor truly did't care about his sons it makes the whole lore about him and the Primarchs less interesting or special.

If only there were other examples of mainstays of 40k lore becoming less interesting and special in the past few years. I just can’t put my finger on it.

 

 

He comes off as a bit sociopathic imo in the recent bit of stuff i have read. Then again you don't become an emperor by being a nice person, the imperium was a bit of a tyrannical and imperialistic empire during the great crusade for anyone who disagreed with them or wasnt human then it became an totalitarian ultra religious empire, He was always a tyrant.

 

 

When the survival of mankind is at stake the ends justify the means, he did what he had to, this doesn't mean he would act in the same manner once Mankinds survival was garanteed.  Personally as Sigismund said, the great crusade would NEVER end we would be fighting to hold what we had conquered and the Milky Way is not the only galaxy.

 

 

 

 

Many in history tried to justify atrocities by saying it was for the greater good or for the survival of a race, it doesn't make him any less of a murderer or tyrant.

 

This is what i like about the setting, the emperor was more enlightened with reason and science compared to chaos and and the later imperium but he was still a really horrible person looking at the bigger picture, there really is no ''good'' guys. I would imagine he would use an empress as a tool for his own gain too.

 

Oh no in this case he was right, he was the only hope for survival of Mankind as a species, there is no debate about this, it was either join his cause or face extinction.  I'm assuming the Empress is every bit as capable and ruthless as he is, hence why I said a sister, maybe make them twins?

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

If the Emperor truly did't care about his sons it makes the whole lore about him and the Primarchs less interesting or special.

If only there were other examples of mainstays of 40k lore becoming less interesting and special in the past few years. I just can’t put my finger on it.

 

 

He comes off as a bit sociopathic imo in the recent bit of stuff i have read. Then again you don't become an emperor by being a nice person, the imperium was a bit of a tyrannical and imperialistic empire during the great crusade for anyone who disagreed with them or wasnt human then it became an totalitarian ultra religious empire, He was always a tyrant.

 

 

When the survival of mankind is at stake the ends justify the means, he did what he had to, this doesn't mean he would act in the same manner once Mankinds survival was garanteed.  Personally as Sigismund said, the great crusade would NEVER end we would be fighting to hold what we had conquered and the Milky Way is not the only galaxy.

 

 

 

 

Many in history tried to justify atrocities by saying it was for the greater good or for the survival of a race, it doesn't make him any less of a murderer or tyrant.

 

This is what i like about the setting, the emperor was more enlightened with reason and science compared to chaos and and the later imperium but he was still a really horrible person looking at the bigger picture, there really is no ''good'' guys. I would imagine he would use an empress as a tool for his own gain too.

 

The emperor is transhuman, and as such current political and social concepts of morality are irrelevant. The Emperor is not evil or malicious, he has abilities that make him better than normal people and this gives him the right to rule.

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

 

 

Also are we saying that a woman would definitely raise the children better than a man would? Or that her leadership style would be different because of her sex?

 

I disagree with such assumptions.

Not at all, just that the Primarch would benefit greatly from having BOTH a father & mother figure as they were basically god like children.

 

 

But the thing is that they had their parents on the planets they grew up on. The Emperor was never really like a father to them and had no hand in raising them at all.

 

Angron didn't have a Parent nor did Cruze, which is why they were so :cussed up.

 

 

 

 

 

If the Emperor truly did't care about his sons it makes the whole lore about him and the Primarchs less interesting or special.

If only there were other examples of mainstays of 40k lore becoming less interesting and special in the past few years. I just can’t put my finger on it.

 

 

He comes off as a bit sociopathic imo in the recent bit of stuff i have read. Then again you don't become an emperor by being a nice person, the imperium was a bit of a tyrannical and imperialistic empire during the great crusade for anyone who disagreed with them or wasnt human then it became an totalitarian ultra religious empire, He was always a tyrant.

 

 

When the survival of mankind is at stake the ends justify the means, he did what he had to, this doesn't mean he would act in the same manner once Mankinds survival was garanteed.  Personally as Sigismund said, the great crusade would NEVER end we would be fighting to hold what we had conquered and the Milky Way is not the only galaxy.

 

 

 

 

Many in history tried to justify atrocities by saying it was for the greater good or for the survival of a race, it doesn't make him any less of a murderer or tyrant.

 

This is what i like about the setting, the emperor was more enlightened with reason and science compared to chaos and and the later imperium but he was still a really horrible person looking at the bigger picture, there really is no ''good'' guys. I would imagine he would use an empress as a tool for his own gain too.

 

The emperor is transhuman, and as such current political and social concepts of morality are irrelevant. The Emperor is not evil or malicious, he has abilities that make him better than normal people and this gives him the right to rule.

 

Exactly you said it better then me, but he was still a man and had all the weaknesses we do.

[Marshal Rohr]

He is not a man in any concept that applies to what you are talking about though.

[Ishagu]

The Emperor spoke like a robot to the leaders of the Mechanicum and addressed people as numerical values. He hated the Primarchs and only valued the Custodes... when he spoke with them. He loved his sons above all others, when he addressed them. He only trusted Malcador's council, when he was conversing with him.

It's hard to see what he really thought.

 

I don't think he was being a "dick" to any of the Primarchs. He teleported Angron away, probably because the planetary leaders had already agreed to join the Imperium thus putting Angron's little rebellion on the wrong side. Also what value did a few uneducated, brain damaged gladiators living on borrowed time have? It's cruel in a sense, don't get me wrong, but he can't right every wrong.

[HereticMarine1]

 

 

 

 

 

If the Emperor truly did't care about his sons it makes the whole lore about him and the Primarchs less interesting or special.

If only there were other examples of mainstays of 40k lore becoming less interesting and special in the past few years. I just can’t put my finger on it.

 

 

He comes off as a bit sociopathic imo in the recent bit of stuff i have read. Then again you don't become an emperor by being a nice person, the imperium was a bit of a tyrannical and imperialistic empire during the great crusade for anyone who disagreed with them or wasnt human then it became an totalitarian ultra religious empire, He was always a tyrant.

 

 

When the survival of mankind is at stake the ends justify the means, he did what he had to, this doesn't mean he would act in the same manner once Mankinds survival was garanteed.  Personally as Sigismund said, the great crusade would NEVER end we would be fighting to hold what we had conquered and the Milky Way is not the only galaxy.

 

 

 

 

Many in history tried to justify atrocities by saying it was for the greater good or for the survival of a race, it doesn't make him any less of a murderer or tyrant.

 

This is what i like about the setting, the emperor was more enlightened with reason and science compared to chaos and and the later imperium but he was still a really horrible person looking at the bigger picture, there really is no ''good'' guys. I would imagine he would use an empress as a tool for his own gain too.

 

The emperor is transhuman, and as such current political and social concepts of morality are irrelevant. The Emperor is not evil or malicious, he has abilities that make him better than normal people and this gives him the right to rule.

 

 

Men like Stalin and Hitler did not consider themselves evil, Yet they committed evil acts. The emperor always said he was just a man and not a god, so he should be scrutinized like any man. This is just my view of the emperor, sure humanity was in a state in and after the age of strife but it does not make the emperors atrocities any better. 

 

A remembrancer (oliton i think) asks why they couldn't leave planets who are not a threat alone as far as i remember, so its not like there isnt people who don't question what is going on.

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

He is not a man in any concept that applies to what you are talking about though.

I disagree he was born a normal child, mourned his father & took revenge on his killer.  He obviously changed as he aged, however he was still and always was a man, I see glimpses of loss, regret etc in Master of Mankind, he just didn't let them affect him and always moved forward.   

 

The fact the heresy even happened is evidence he as not infallible like any other man.

[Ishagu]

In terms of judging him: If the scales were weighed, the Emperor did more good than bad in the name of the human race. It was facing extinction, regression and enslavement on a grand scale.

He can only be judged on the macro level.

 

His failures are numerous also, however.

 

As for forging ahead, wasn't that the Emperor's philosophy? To only look forward and to the future. Malcador was there to make sure the mistakes of the past weren't repeated.

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

The Emperor spoke like a robot to the leaders of the Mechanicum and addressed people as numerical values. He hated the Primarchs and only valued the Custodes... when he spoke with them. He loved his sons above all others, when he addressed them. He only trusted Malcador's council, when he was conversing with him.

It's hard to see what he really thought.

 

I don't think he was being a "dick" to any of the Primarchs. He teleported Angron away, probably because the planetary leaders had already agreed to join the Imperium thus putting Angron's little rebellion on the wrong side. Also what value did a few uneducated, brain damaged gladiators living on borrowed time have? It's cruel in a sense, don't get me wrong, but he can't right every wrong.

Disagree he was very inconsistent with how he treated each Primarch on finding them, I guess the reason being as the crusade progressed he had less time to spend on them.  It is mentioned in one of the novels he could have removed the nails from Angron but choose not to.  No the leaders of that world were not even aware of the Emperor from memory when he teleported Angron away, I think he was just pissed of Angron told him to bugger off, again evidence he was a man at the end of the day.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

He is not a man in any concept that applies to what you are talking about though.

I disagree he was born a normal child, mourned his father & took revenge on his killer.  He obviously changed as he aged, however he was still and always was a man, I see glimpses of loss, regret etc in Master of Mankind, he just didn't let them affect him and always moved forward.   

 

The fact the heresy even happened is evidence he as not infallible like any other man.

 

 

We don't know if that vision of the child and his uncle was real, if it was simply a fraction of the Emperor's gestalt being. That isnt evidence for your point. The Heresy is a political conflict, it isn't the Emperor's fault and has no bearing on his fallibility. 

[Brother Tyler]

We're getting slightly off topic. This topic is about how the overall story may have been different had there been an Emperor and Empress instead of just the Emperor.

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

In terms of judging him: If the scales were weighed, the Emperor did more good than bad in the name of the human race. It was facing extinction, regression and enslavement on a grand scale.

He can only be judged on the macro level.

 

His failures are numerous also, however.

 

As for forging ahead, wasn't that the Emperor's philosophy? To only look forward and to the future. Malcador was there to make sure the mistakes of the past weren't repeated.

Yep as horrible as the Imperium is the alternative is infinately worse under the Chaos Gods & the Imperium isn't completely awful it's mentioned several times that MOST worlds are peaceful, well MOST of the time. 

 

I've pretty much read every bit of lore I can find, the fantasy flight games RPG have some really cool stuff, there is one ocean world mentioned that is a bascially a giant lobster farm, where the inhabitants have not seen conflict for millenia (if ever) live well and are somewhat lacking in faith as they have things TOO good.

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

 

 

He is not a man in any concept that applies to what you are talking about though.

I disagree he was born a normal child, mourned his father & took revenge on his killer.  He obviously changed as he aged, however he was still and always was a man, I see glimpses of loss, regret etc in Master of Mankind, he just didn't let them affect him and always moved forward.   

 

The fact the heresy even happened is evidence he as not infallible like any other man.

 

 

We don't know if that vision of the child and his uncle was real, if it was simply a fraction of the Emperor's gestalt being. That isnt evidence for your point. The Heresy is a political conflict, it isn't the Emperor's fault and has no bearing on his fallibility. 

 

 

No that was real it's explicantly said this was the "first murder", the very first time a human killed another for personal gain in cold blood (I think it was his uncle coveted his mother from memory could be wrong though), this act resonanted in the warp and spawned the daemon Drach'nyen.

[Ishagu]

 

 

The Emperor spoke like a robot to the leaders of the Mechanicum and addressed people as numerical values. He hated the Primarchs and only valued the Custodes... when he spoke with them. He loved his sons above all others, when he addressed them. He only trusted Malcador's council, when he was conversing with him.

It's hard to see what he really thought.

 

I don't think he was being a "dick" to any of the Primarchs. He teleported Angron away, probably because the planetary leaders had already agreed to join the Imperium thus putting Angron's little rebellion on the wrong side. Also what value did a few uneducated, brain damaged gladiators living on borrowed time have? It's cruel in a sense, don't get me wrong, but he can't right every wrong.

Disagree he was very inconsistent with how he treated each Primarch on finding them, I guess the reason being as the crusade progressed he had less time to spend on them. It is mentioned in one of the novels he could have removed the nails from Angron but choose not to. No the leaders of that world were not even aware of the Emperor from memory when he teleported Angron away, I think he was just pissed of Angron told him to bugger off, again evidence he was a man at the end of the day.

He couldn't remove them without killing him. He even sought help from Arhan Land on the matter

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

He is not a man in any concept that applies to what you are talking about though.

I disagree he was born a normal child, mourned his father & took revenge on his killer.  He obviously changed as he aged, however he was still and always was a man, I see glimpses of loss, regret etc in Master of Mankind, he just didn't let them affect him and always moved forward.   

 

The fact the heresy even happened is evidence he as not infallible like any other man.

 

 

We don't know if that vision of the child and his uncle was real, if it was simply a fraction of the Emperor's gestalt being. That isnt evidence for your point. The Heresy is a political conflict, it isn't the Emperor's fault and has no bearing on his fallibility. 

 

 

No that was real it's explicantly said this was the "first murder", the very first time a human killed another for personal gain in cold blood (I think it was his uncle coveted his mother from memory could be wrong though), this act resonanted in the warp and spawned the daemon Drach'nyen.

 

 

Whoa, way off base and incorrect here. He explicitly says to Ra people have been murdering each other long before the murder from the vision. He said its the first murder that resonates with him and makes him think people must be ruled. The vision might have been real, it might not have been real, it might have been simply one of the Emperor's many existences, or it could be one of the existences of the Shaman's that made up his consciousness in older lore. The vision is 100% not in any way verified to either have or not have happened.

[Panzer]

 

 

 

Also are we saying that a woman would definitely raise the children better than a man would? Or that her leadership style would be different because of her sex?

 

I disagree with such assumptions.

Not at all, just that the Primarch would benefit greatly from having BOTH a father & mother figure as they were basically god like children.

 

 

But the thing is that they had their parents on the planets they grew up on. The Emperor was never really like a father to them and had no hand in raising them at all.

 

Angron didn't have a Parent nor did Cruze, which is why they were so up.

 

Which wouldn't have changed with an Empress around since they got spirited away anyway.

[Ishagu]

This Empress we're talking about. Is she also a trans-human God-like being or just a woman?

If she was created the same way as the Emperor isn't she more like a sibling?

 

Does her existence change the way the Primarchs were created? Are they no longer individual aspects of the Emperor's being?