God Emperor and Empress

[Ishagu]

I've read the book lol

I read that whole part differently. I thought the murder had to be based on greed and malice or something

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

 

So Drach'nyen was made when a monkey killed a monkey?

Not monkeys but a more primitive hominid than Homo Sapiens. Earlier killings had obviously happened but this was the first pre-medidated, cold-blooded murder.

 

 

Exactly!  Except it was a modern human our species is I think 100,000 years old.

[Karhedron]

Yes exactly!! But what I am saying is if there was an Empress who could also give them guidance they might have been more balaced, he did spend what was it 2 years with Mortarion after he was found?

How much difference would extra parenting have made at that stage? The Primarchs were adults by that point and their personalities were largely established. Remember that the Primarchs also interacted among themselves. Vulkan tried to teach Kurze compassion (for all the good it did).

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

I've read the book lol

I read that whole part differently. I thought the murder had to be based on greed and malice or something

Could have been I seem to remember the Emperors mother maybe his uncle was jealous, can't remember exactly.

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

 

Yes exactly!! But what I am saying is if there was an Empress who could also give them guidance they might have been more balaced, he did spend what was it 2 years with Mortarion after he was found?

How much difference would extra parenting have made at that stage? The Primarchs were adults by that point and their personalities were largely established. Remember that the Primarchs also interacted among themselves. Vulkan tried to teach Kurze compassion (for all the good it did).

 

 

I think a great deal, they were never going to listen to each other, I mean most siblings argue amongst themselves but how many children don't listen to their mother?  Don't forgot that they longed for someone equal to their intellect, etc & only the Emperor could provide that.

[Karhedron]

Shaman lore is yet to be explored in the novels yet?  Unless I missed it?  All we know so far is that the Emperor was born a normal human child.

You are quite correct. Assuming the visions the Emperor shares with Ra are genuine (not guaranteed) then he was born as a human child of mortal parents. I would argue he was not "normal" as he is both a psyker and a perpetual. Whether he was the first (a genetic fluke) or whether a generation of shamen preceded him has not been established in the current lore. I think that Shamen-synergy origin for the Emperor still stands until/unless GW decide to retcon it in some way.

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

One more time, so it doesn't get lost 

 

“‘You watched that man die, did you not?’ Ra looked back over his shoulder, where the village folk were gathered around the fallen man, weeping and comforting in a loose, unwashed herd.

‘I did.’ ‘That was my uncle. My father’s brother.’

‘You killed him,’ the Custodian said without judgement.

‘Yes. He struck my father from behind with a piece of sharpened bronze too poorly made to even be called a knife. Men had killed one another for generations before my birth, but this was the first slaying that had resonance to me, that changed my existence. It was illuminating.’

*He paused for a moment, following Ra’s gaze back to the noisy villagers. * ‘The very first murder was also a fratricide,’ he said without emotion. ‘Thousands of years before this, when men and women still owed as much to apes as to the form we know now.”

 

That passage just proves what I said, he killed his brother NOT to survive but MURDERED him in cold blood, these are 2 differet things.  Animals kill to survive only humans murder each other.

 

Shaman lore is yet to be explored in the novels yet?  Unless I missed it?  All we know so far is that the Emperor was born a normal human child.

You are quite correct. Assuming the visions the Emperor shares with Ra are genuine (not guaranteed) then he was born as a human child of mortal parents. I would argue he was not "normal" as he is both a psyker and a perpetual. Whether he was the first (a genetic fluke) or whether a generation of shamen preceded him has not been established in the current lore. I think that Shamen-synergy origin for the Emperor still stands until/unless GW decide to retcon it in some way.

 

 

Oh he definately was not normal, he could have been the first human were the Psyker gene appeared by pure chance or a creation of the old ones, etc but I firmly believe the shamans will either be retconned or explored in more detail with an unexpected twist.

[Karhedron]

 

He couldn't remove them without killing him. He even sought help from Arhan Land on the matter

I could be wrong but I clearly remember him telling Land somelike "Of course I could remove them", whether that means he didn't want to, had no time to or did not want to risk killing Angron in the attempt is unknown, but I think he could have just chose not to as at that stage of the crusade he just needed another Primarch and Angron as he was found was how do I say? compatable with the warhounds.

 

I am pretty sure that MoM makes it clear that removing the Nails would kill Angron since they replaced certain vital parts of his brain. The implants were still killing him, just far more slowly than a normal human since his enhanced physiology was constantly fighting to try and repair the damage. Angron was dead either way but at least allowing him to lead his Legion would speed up the Great Crusade which was the Emperor's primary concern.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

One more time, so it doesn't get lost 

 

“‘You watched that man die, did you not?’ Ra looked back over his shoulder, where the village folk were gathered around the fallen man, weeping and comforting in a loose, unwashed herd.

‘I did.’ ‘That was my uncle. My father’s brother.’

‘You killed him,’ the Custodian said without judgement.

‘Yes. He struck my father from behind with a piece of sharpened bronze too poorly made to even be called a knife. Men had killed one another for generations before my birth, but this was the first slaying that had resonance to me, that changed my existence. It was illuminating.’

*He paused for a moment, following Ra’s gaze back to the noisy villagers. * ‘The very first murder was also a fratricide,’ he said without emotion. ‘Thousands of years before this, when men and women still owed as much to apes as to the form we know now.”

 

That passage just proves what I said, he killed his brother NOT to survive but MURDERED him in cold blood, these are 2 differet things.  Animals kill to survive only humans murder each other.

 

 

No it quite explicitly proves you are wrong. It is not up to interpretation. The murder that birthed Drach'nyen happened thousands of years before the Emperor was born. When he says the first murder was also a fratricide, also refers to something else happening that isnt the murder of his father. 

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

One thing I just noticed it said his father was murdered with a piece of sharpened bronze this may seem insignificant, but by the time we could make bronze, civilization was well established, so the Emperor is a lot younger then first though, I always assumed he was born like 50,000 years ago etc to some hunter gatherer tribe in the ice age.  I think this might have been an oversight by GW, it should have been a knapped flint knife or axe, hell make it the 1st Athame & his uncle the 1st chaos cultist!!

[Panzer]

You guys do realise that the first murder refers to Cain and Abel though, right?

[Marshal Rohr]

One thing I just noticed it said his father was murdered with a piece of sharpened bronze this may seem insignificant, but by the time we could make bronze, civilization was well established, so the Emperor is a lot younger then first though, I always assumed he was born like 50,000 years ago etc to some hunter gatherer tribe in the ice age. I think this might have been an oversight by GW, it should have been a knapped flint knife or axe, hell make it the 1st Athame & his uncle the 1st chaos cultist!!

No it’s not an oversight. You’re just wrong about when he was born. What the :cuss is your problem? This isn’t a discussion. It’s not the same murder. Frankly this whole thread reeks of trolling.

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

 

 

He couldn't remove them without killing him. He even sought help from Arhan Land on the matter

I could be wrong but I clearly remember him telling Land somelike "Of course I could remove them", whether that means he didn't want to, had no time to or did not want to risk killing Angron in the attempt is unknown, but I think he could have just chose not to as at that stage of the crusade he just needed another Primarch and Angron as he was found was how do I say? compatable with the warhounds.

 

I am pretty sure that MoM makes it clear that removing the Nails would kill Angron since they replaced certain vital parts of his brain. The implants were still killing him, just far more slowly than a normal human since his enhanced physiology was constantly fighting to try and repair the damage. Angron was dead either way but at least allowing him to lead his Legion would speed up the Great Crusade which was the Emperor's primary concern.

 

Yes it did say that but I remember words to the effect of "of course I could remove them" to land, now whether that meant that Angron would die or had a chance of dying that the Emperor didn't wish to risk is another thing. 

 

But this is the Emperor at the peak of his power, remember Gol Kolea from Guants Ghosts how St Sabbat restores his mental faculties after a his brain injury and Ana says his brain activity has not changed despite him returning to normal.  There is no way the Emperor could have not healed Angron I think he just wanted Land's opinion to see what the likelihood that any attempt based on physical repair would work.  And he decied the attempt was not worth the risk or that Angron suited the warhounds the way he was, but didn't fully realise the pain Angron was in and were that pain would drive him..

 

Prehaps the emperor knew that any Physic repair would fail on Angron given the way his legionnaires reacted to the warhound librarians once implanted with he nails.

[Leif Bearclaw]

I always find it mildly amusing when folk say the Emperor mistreated Angron by not saving his slaves. Those abominations were techno-barbarians designed to fight and kill (look at Pitslaves in Necromunda) and they slaughtered and destroyed entire cities before being hounded to the mountains.

 

Do people really think those creatures were worth saving or even it was a good idea to save them?

 

 

Why were they beyond saving and Angron wasn't? What makes them so unsalvageable when the Imperium had already recruited many barbarous, violent cultures into its armies (Cthonia, Medusa, Chogoris, Fenris etc., and that's just Legion home worlds). The Nails? It seems to be a matter of some dispute whether removal was possible, and even if it wasn't, so what? Have them fight and die in the service of the Great Crusade. Saving only Angron is just a baffling decision, as that way you're putting a (pretty reliable) Legion of Astartes under the command of a lunatic with a chip on his shoulder and now, a personal grudge against the Emperor. At least making the effort of saving his people would leave Angron better disposed towards, well, everything. And that's got to be a plus when talking Primarchs.

 

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

You guys do realise that the first murder refers to Cain and Abel though, right?

 

Not a christian but vaguely familiar with that story it actually mentions that in the Lexi article.

[Karhedron]

One thing I just noticed it said his father was murdered with a piece of sharpened bronze this may seem insignificant, but by the time we could make bronze, civilization was well established, so the Emperor is a lot younger then first though, I always assumed he was born like 50,000 years ago etc to some hunter gatherer tribe in the ice age.  I think this might have been an oversight by GW, it should have been a knapped flint knife or axe, hell make it the 1st Athame & his uncle the 1st chaos cultist!!

Nope, both the old lore and MoM agree that the Emperor was born in Turkey around the dawn of history (as opposed to archaeology). The original fluff was that he was born around 8000 BC but that would make it too early for the Bronze Age which began around 3000BC. I suppose it is possible that some Neolithic tribe had bronze before that date but that is stretching it. The disocvery of how to smelt bronze may well have happened more than once in more than one place but the idea of it being discovered 5000 years before it became widely established seems improbable.

 

I just put it down to the GW writers not being particularly versed in either history or archaeology.

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

 

I always find it mildly amusing when folk say the Emperor mistreated Angron by not saving his slaves. Those abominations were techno-barbarians designed to fight and kill (look at Pitslaves in Necromunda) and they slaughtered and destroyed entire cities before being hounded to the mountains.

 

Do people really think those creatures were worth saving or even it was a good idea to save them?

 

 

Why were they beyond saving and Angron wasn't? What makes them so unsalvageable when the Imperium had already recruited many barbarous, violent cultures into its armies (Cthonia, Medusa, Chogoris, Fenris etc., and that's just Legion home worlds). The Nails? It seems to be a matter of some dispute whether removal was possible, and even if it wasn't, so what? Have them fight and die in the service of the Great Crusade. Saving only Angron is just a baffling decision, as that way you're putting a (pretty reliable) Legion of Astartes under the command of a lunatic with a chip on his shoulder and now, a personal grudge against the Emperor. At least making the effort of saving his people would leave Angron better disposed towards, well, everything. And that's got to be a plus when talking Primarchs.

 

 

Totally agree!! Which is why I assumed they were corrupted by chaos & had aliens amongst them like the shriek spear women who to me sounded exactly like a dark eldar skyboard rider.

[Ishagu]

 

 

I always find it mildly amusing when folk say the Emperor mistreated Angron by not saving his slaves. Those abominations were techno-barbarians designed to fight and kill (look at Pitslaves in Necromunda) and they slaughtered and destroyed entire cities before being hounded to the mountains.

 

Do people really think those creatures were worth saving or even it was a good idea to save them?

 

 

Why were they beyond saving and Angron wasn't? What makes them so unsalvageable when the Imperium had already recruited many barbarous, violent cultures into its armies (Cthonia, Medusa, Chogoris, Fenris etc., and that's just Legion home worlds). The Nails? It seems to be a matter of some dispute whether removal was possible, and even if it wasn't, so what? Have them fight and die in the service of the Great Crusade. Saving only Angron is just a baffling decision, as that way you're putting a (pretty reliable) Legion of Astartes under the command of a lunatic with a chip on his shoulder and now, a personal grudge against the Emperor. At least making the effort of saving his people would leave Angron better disposed towards, well, everything. And that's got to be a plus when talking Primarchs.

The planet had agreed to join the Imperium peacefully and become compliant. Angron's brain damaged horde were the enemies of the Imperium. Angron was saved, obviously.

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

 

One thing I just noticed it said his father was murdered with a piece of sharpened bronze this may seem insignificant, but by the time we could make bronze, civilization was well established, so the Emperor is a lot younger then first though, I always assumed he was born like 50,000 years ago etc to some hunter gatherer tribe in the ice age.  I think this might have been an oversight by GW, it should have been a knapped flint knife or axe, hell make it the 1st Athame & his uncle the 1st chaos cultist!!

Nope, both the old lore and MoM agree that the Emperor was born in Turkey around the dawn of history (as opposed to archaeology). The original fluff was that he was born around 8000 BC but that would make it too early for the Bronze Age which began around 3000BC. I suppose it is possible that some Neolithic tribe had bronze before that date but that is stretching it. The disocvery of how to smelt bronze may well have happened more than once in more than one place but the idea of it being discovered 5000 years before it became widely established seems improbable.

 

I just put it down to the GW writers not being particularly versed in either history or archaeology.

 

Doesn't MOM say Eygpt?  We used copper prior to bronze so maybe they meant that.

 

 

I always find it mildly amusing when folk say the Emperor mistreated Angron by not saving his slaves. Those abominations were techno-barbarians designed to fight and kill (look at Pitslaves in Necromunda) and they slaughtered and destroyed entire cities before being hounded to the mountains.

 

Do people really think those creatures were worth saving or even it was a good idea to save them?

 

Why were they beyond saving and Angron wasn't? What makes them so unsalvageable when the Imperium had already recruited many barbarous, violent cultures into its armies (Cthonia, Medusa, Chogoris, Fenris etc., and that's just Legion home worlds). The Nails? It seems to be a matter of some dispute whether removal was possible, and even if it wasn't, so what? Have them fight and die in the service of the Great Crusade. Saving only Angron is just a baffling decision, as that way you're putting a (pretty reliable) Legion of Astartes under the command of a lunatic with a chip on his shoulder and now, a personal grudge against the Emperor. At least making the effort of saving his people would leave Angron better disposed towards, well, everything. And that's got to be a plus when talking Primarchs.

The planet had agreed to join the Imperium peacefully and become compliant. Angron's brain damaged horde were the enemies of the Imperium. Angron was saved, obviously.

 

 

I am pretty sure they agreed AFTER Angron was taken.

[Ishagu]

If that's the case it still makes the most sense to reach compliance without deploying Astartes and killing humans. The armies that surrounded the horde were numerous. Should they kill thousands of normal humans to save a few hundred crazed killers? It's a pretty grim situation no doubt. The planet's nobility were guilty of crimes against humanity, but you also need them for the transition.

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

 

One thing I just noticed it said his father was murdered with a piece of sharpened bronze this may seem insignificant, but by the time we could make bronze, civilization was well established, so the Emperor is a lot younger then first though, I always assumed he was born like 50,000 years ago etc to some hunter gatherer tribe in the ice age. I think this might have been an oversight by GW, it should have been a knapped flint knife or axe, hell make it the 1st Athame & his uncle the 1st chaos cultist!!

No it’s not an oversight. You’re just wrong about when he was born. What the is your problem? This isn’t a discussion. It’s not the same murder. Frankly this whole thread reeks of trolling.

 

Mate it says Egypt in the book, you are beginning to annoy me, don't like the thread then don't post or read it.  Everyone else is being civil, if anyone is trolling it's you.  And you should be happy there is a chick so mad about 40k, after this bull:cuss about 40k being sexist.  I said I assumed as I am not overly familiar with that old lore, as I have only known about 40k when I was 12 in 2007, I am yet to get to the REALLY old stuff.

[Leif Bearclaw]

If that's the case it still makes the most sense to reach compliance without deploying Astartes and killing humans. The armies that surrounded the horde were numerous. Should they kill thousands of normal humans to save a few hundred crazed killers? It's a pretty grim situation no doubt. The planet's nobility were guilty of crimes against humanity, but you also need them for the transition.

If Nuceria was complaint, why not just call the armies off? Tell the people 'you'll never see these guys again, don't worry about it'. The armies go home, you pack Angron and his dudes onto Stormbirds. Everybody wins.

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

If that's the case it still makes the most sense to reach compliance without deploying Astartes and killing humans. The armies that surrounded the horde were numerous. Should they kill thousands of normal humans to save a few hundred crazed killers? It's a pretty grim situation no doubt. The planet's nobility were guilty of crimes against humanity, but you also need them for the transition.

 

Why not they killed far more for less & the warhounds were hardly the most stable/restrained legion, if the Emperor was not there, there is no way they immediately would have not dropped to meet & FIGHT with their father.

[Panzer]

 

 

One thing I just noticed it said his father was murdered with a piece of sharpened bronze this may seem insignificant, but by the time we could make bronze, civilization was well established, so the Emperor is a lot younger then first though, I always assumed he was born like 50,000 years ago etc to some hunter gatherer tribe in the ice age. I think this might have been an oversight by GW, it should have been a knapped flint knife or axe, hell make it the 1st Athame & his uncle the 1st chaos cultist!!

No it’s not an oversight. You’re just wrong about when he was born. What the is your problem? This isn’t a discussion. It’s not the same murder. Frankly this whole thread reeks of trolling.

 

Mate it says Egypt in the book, you are beginning to annoy me, don't like the thread then don't post or read it.  Everyone else is being civil, if anyone is trolling it's you.  And you should be happy there is a chick so mad about 40k, after this bull:cuss about 40k being sexist.  I said I assumed as I am not overly familiar with that old lore, as I have only known about 40k when I was 12 in 2007, I am yet to get to the REALLY old stuff.

 

Please don't bring your gender into the discussion. It's not an argument for anything and only derails.

[The God Empress Of Mankind]

 

If that's the case it still makes the most sense to reach compliance without deploying Astartes and killing humans. The armies that surrounded the horde were numerous. Should they kill thousands of normal humans to save a few hundred crazed killers? It's a pretty grim situation no doubt. The planet's nobility were guilty of crimes against humanity, but you also need them for the transition.

If Nuceria was complaint, why not just call the armies off? Tell the people 'you'll never see these guys again, don't worry about it'. The armies go home, you pack Angron and his dudes onto Stormbirds. Everybody wins.

 

Or tell them their cities will burn from orbit & the survivors of your nobility enslaved.