Marshal Rohr Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 This is the lore from the book you are citing.The book says they spoke a pre-Hittite dialect. He is not Egyptian. He is mentioned in multiple times in multiple sources as being Anatolian or near-Anatolia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites) all of which were made after you got into the hobby. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355654-god-emperor-and-empress/page/6/#findComment-5305935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The God Empress Of Mankind Posted May 2, 2019 Author Share Posted May 2, 2019 One thing I just noticed it said his father was murdered with a piece of sharpened bronze this may seem insignificant, but by the time we could make bronze, civilization was well established, so the Emperor is a lot younger then first though, I always assumed he was born like 50,000 years ago etc to some hunter gatherer tribe in the ice age. I think this might have been an oversight by GW, it should have been a knapped flint knife or axe, hell make it the 1st Athame & his uncle the 1st chaos cultist!! No it’s not an oversight. You’re just wrong about when he was born. What the is your problem? This isn’t a discussion. It’s not the same murder. Frankly this whole thread reeks of trolling. Mate it says Egypt in the book, you are beginning to annoy me, don't like the thread then don't post or read it. Everyone else is being civil, if anyone is trolling it's you. And you should be happy there is a chick so mad about 40k, after this bull:cuss about 40k being sexist. I said I assumed as I am not overly familiar with that old lore, as I have only known about 40k when I was 12 in 2007, I am yet to get to the REALLY old stuff. Please don't bring your gender into the discussion. It's not an argument for anything and only derails. Point taken fair enough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355654-god-emperor-and-empress/page/6/#findComment-5305936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 Lots of stuff in the novels is up for interpretation. Especially the semi dream-like memories of the Emperor in master of mankind lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355654-god-emperor-and-empress/page/6/#findComment-5305938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 Mate it says Egypt in the book, No, Master of Mankind specifies the Emperor's birthplace as Anatolia, which is in modern-day Turkey, not Egypt. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355654-god-emperor-and-empress/page/6/#findComment-5305939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The God Empress Of Mankind Posted May 2, 2019 Author Share Posted May 2, 2019 This is the lore from the book you are citing.The book says they spoke a pre-Hittite dialect. He is not Egyptian. He is mentioned in multiple times in multiple sources as being Anatolian or near-Anatolia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites) all of which were made after you got into the hobby. For give me if I am wrong but the book says Egypt, GW obviously got that wrong then, I didn't write the book, I can only go by what I have read so far. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355654-god-emperor-and-empress/page/6/#findComment-5305940 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 The Emperors uncle killing his father was explicitly not the 'first murder' which created drach'nyen, this is stated in the book. The first murder happened long before that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355654-god-emperor-and-empress/page/6/#findComment-5305942 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 The Emperor, Primarchs, and Space Marines were not families. Yes, some members may have viewed things that way, but none of them were (and there are clear indications of this by Marines specifically not referring to a Primarchs as a “gene-father”, etc.). Adding another figure into the mix (regardless of sex/gender) wouldn’t have changed this (technically the story already has Malcador “in the mix” as it were, and for what it was worth, Malcador did seem to have at least some interest in the Primarchs beyond them being “tools) - female sex doesn’t automatically make someone caring, nurturing, etc., certainly doesn’t predispose them to trying to love genetic/Warp mixed experimental/refinement generated beings, just like male sex doesn’t automatically make someone authoritarian, cruel, or distant (yes, I’m talking purely genetically here and not gender role assumptions, etc.). The entire predication of this “thought experiment” is flawed and couched in unfounded stereotypes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355654-god-emperor-and-empress/page/6/#findComment-5305943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 Marshal, don't get too angry. You still haven't admitted to being wrong about the size of the Indomnitus crusade. The DI novel did specify it was the size of 9 full Legions :-P Lots of stuff in the novels is up for interpretation. Especially the semi dream-like memories of the Emperor in master of mankind lol I provided quotes that proved you wrong. Direct quotes. From the exact book. Just like I did here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355654-god-emperor-and-empress/page/6/#findComment-5305944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The God Empress Of Mankind Posted May 2, 2019 Author Share Posted May 2, 2019 Mate it says Egypt in the book, No, Master of Mankind specifies the Emperor's birthplace as Anatolia, which is in modern-day Turkey, not Egypt. Ok my mistake then, not sure were Egypt came from. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355654-god-emperor-and-empress/page/6/#findComment-5305945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 Marshal, don't get too angry. You still haven't admitted to being wrong about the size of the Indomnitus crusade. The DI novel did specify it was the size of 9 full Legions :-P Lots of stuff in the novels is up for interpretation. Especially the semi dream-like memories of the Emperor in master of mankind lol I provided quotes that proved you wrong. Direct quotes. From the exact book. Just like I did here. Lol no you didn't Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355654-god-emperor-and-empress/page/6/#findComment-5305951 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 Marshal, don't get too angry. You still haven't admitted to being wrong about the size of the Indomnitus crusade. The DI novel did specify it was the size of 9 full Legions :-P Lots of stuff in the novels is up for interpretation. Especially the semi dream-like memories of the Emperor in master of mankind lol I provided quotes that proved you wrong. Direct quotes. From the exact book. Just like I did here. Lol no you didn't Post #33 http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354376-guillimans-return-and-the-codex-astartes/page-2 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355654-god-emperor-and-empress/page/6/#findComment-5305953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The God Empress Of Mankind Posted May 2, 2019 Author Share Posted May 2, 2019 The Emperors uncle killing his father was explicitly not the 'first murder' which created drach'nyen, this is stated in the book. The first murder happened long before that. KILLING TO SURVIVE IS NOT MURDER. How many times to I have to say that. Every single human WILL KILL ANOTHER HUMAN TO SURVIVE (you are naive if you don't understand this), however very FEW humans will kill another human in cold blood for personal advancement or to satisfy some petty grievance. However slightly off topic but each and everyone of us is capable of murder given the right circumstances. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355654-god-emperor-and-empress/page/6/#findComment-5305954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 The Emperors uncle killing his father was explicitly not the 'first murder' which created drach'nyen, this is stated in the book. The first murder happened long before that. KILLING TO SURVIVE IS NOT MURDER. How many times to I have to say that. Every single human WILL KILL ANOTHER HUMAN TO SURVIVE (you are naive if you don't understand this), however very FEW humans will kill another human in cold blood for personal advancement or to satisfy some petty grievance. However slightly off topic but each and everyone of us is capable of murder given the right circumstances. Then why does the Emperor reference the murder as a murder in the quote I provided. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355654-god-emperor-and-empress/page/6/#findComment-5305955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 Yeha he definitely proved you wrong ishagu. Using the chapter you tried to claim backed you up no less. Hoisted on your own petard :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355654-god-emperor-and-empress/page/6/#findComment-5305956 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 KILLING TO SURVIVE IS NOT MURDER. How many times to I have to say that. Every single human WILL KILL ANOTHER HUMAN TO SURVIVE (you are naive if you don't understand this), however very FEW humans will kill another human in cold blood for personal advancement or to satisfy some petty grievance. However slightly off topic but each and everyone of us is capable of murder given the right circumstances. It would probably be best if you didn’t bring your personal view on murder into the board. We aren’t here to discuss real world views, only 40K. Let’s right this ship. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355654-god-emperor-and-empress/page/6/#findComment-5305957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The God Empress Of Mankind Posted May 2, 2019 Author Share Posted May 2, 2019 The Emperor, Primarchs, and Space Marines were not families. Yes, some members may have viewed things that way, but none of them were (and there are clear indications of this by Marines specifically not referring to a Primarchs as a “gene-father”, etc.). Adding another figure into the mix (regardless of sex/gender) wouldn’t have changed this (technically Althea story already has Malcador “in the mix” as it were, and for what it was worth, Malcador did seem to have at least some interest in the Primarchs beyond them being “tools) - female sex doesn’t automatically make someone caring, nurturing, etc., certainly doesn’t predispose them to trying to love genetic/Warp mixed experimental/refinement generated beings, just like male sex doesn’t automatically make someone authoritarian, cruel, or distant (yes, I’m talking purely genetically here and not gender role assumptions, etc.). The entire predication of this “thought experiment” is flawed and couched in unfounded stereotypes. Your correct some of us are heartless :cuss in the way we treat men. However I am assuming my Empress is a mother figure to the Primarchs, just as the Emperor was a father, yes he wasn't but they thought he was, so from their point of view he was their father. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355654-god-emperor-and-empress/page/6/#findComment-5305959 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 The Emperors uncle killing his father was explicitly not the 'first murder' which created drach'nyen, this is stated in the book. The first murder happened long before that. KILLING TO SURVIVE IS NOT MURDER. How many times to I have to say that. Every single human WILL KILL ANOTHER HUMAN TO SURVIVE (you are naive if you don't understand this), however very FEW humans will kill another human in cold blood for personal advancement or to satisfy some petty grievance. However slightly off topic but each and everyone of us is capable of murder given the right circumstances. Its explicitly stated in MoM that the first murder was indeed a murder. One brother killing another. It was not a killing done out of the need to survive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355654-god-emperor-and-empress/page/6/#findComment-5305960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 Here is the passage about the first murder Two men cry out in a forgotten age. The roar of the slayer harmonises with the scream of the slain. In this earliest epoch, when humankind still fears spirits of fire and prays to false gods for the sun to rise, the murder of a brother is the darkest of deeds. Blood marks the man’s face, just as it marks the spear in his clenched fists and the rocks beneath his brother’s body. The wound gouts and sprays – the man tastes the red wine of his brother’s veins, feeling the blood’s heat where it lands on his bearded skin, tasting of metals yet undiscovered and seas yet unseen. As the hot salt of spilt life burns his tongue, the man knows with impossible clarity: He is the first. Mankind – in all its myriad forms on the thousandfold path from wretched lizard-thing to warm-blooded mammal – has always fought to survive. Even as hunched ape-creatures and brutish proto-men, it waged insignificant and miserable wars upon itself with fists and teeth and rocks. Yet this man is the first. Not the first to hate, nor even the first to kill. He is the first to take life in cold blood. He is the first to murder. His dying brother’s thrashing hand reaches for him, raking dirty nails across his sweating skin. Seeking mercy or vengeance? The man doesn’t know, and in his rage he doesn’t care. He drives the wooden spear deeper into the yielding hardness of meat and against the scrape of bone. Still he screams, still he roars. The scream of the first murderer cuts through the veil, echoing across reality and unreality alike. To the things that wait in the warp, mankind will never sing a sweeter song. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355654-god-emperor-and-empress/page/6/#findComment-5305962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The God Empress Of Mankind Posted May 2, 2019 Author Share Posted May 2, 2019 The Emperors uncle killing his father was explicitly not the 'first murder' which created drach'nyen, this is stated in the book. The first murder happened long before that. KILLING TO SURVIVE IS NOT MURDER. How many times to I have to say that. Every single human WILL KILL ANOTHER HUMAN TO SURVIVE (you are naive if you don't understand this), however very FEW humans will kill another human in cold blood for personal advancement or to satisfy some petty grievance. However slightly off topic but each and everyone of us is capable of murder given the right circumstances. Then why does the Emperor reference the murder as a murder in the quote I provided. Aren't we saying the same thing here? That was the 1st MURDER, he said we had been KILLING each other prior to that. The Emperors uncle killing his father was explicitly not the 'first murder' which created drach'nyen, this is stated in the book. The first murder happened long before that. KILLING TO SURVIVE IS NOT MURDER. How many times to I have to say that. Every single human WILL KILL ANOTHER HUMAN TO SURVIVE (you are naive if you don't understand this), however very FEW humans will kill another human in cold blood for personal advancement or to satisfy some petty grievance. However slightly off topic but each and everyone of us is capable of murder given the right circumstances. Its explicitly stated in MoM that the first murder was indeed a murder. One brother killing another. It was not a killing done out of the need to survive. That's exactly what I am saying!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355654-god-emperor-and-empress/page/6/#findComment-5305963 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 The Emperors uncle killing his father was explicitly not the 'first murder' which created drach'nyen, this is stated in the book. The first murder happened long before that. KILLING TO SURVIVE IS NOT MURDER. How many times to I have to say that. Every single human WILL KILL ANOTHER HUMAN TO SURVIVE (you are naive if you don't understand this), however very FEW humans will kill another human in cold blood for personal advancement or to satisfy some petty grievance. However slightly off topic but each and everyone of us is capable of murder given the right circumstances. Shouting won't make you right and apparently it doesn't help you reading either. With no word he claimed that every kill before that one murder in the Emperor's memory was supposed to be murder. All he said is that murder happened before the time his memory is in already and that's a fact. He wasn't remembering the first murder. He was remembering A murder. The first murder happened long long before the Emperor walked the earth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355654-god-emperor-and-empress/page/6/#findComment-5305964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The God Empress Of Mankind Posted May 2, 2019 Author Share Posted May 2, 2019 T Here is the passage about the first murder Two men cry out in a forgotten age. The roar of the slayer harmonises with the scream of the slain. In this earliest epoch, when humankind still fears spirits of fire and prays to false gods for the sun to rise, the murder of a brother is the darkest of deeds. Blood marks the man’s face, just as it marks the spear in his clenched fists and the rocks beneath his brother’s body. The wound gouts and sprays – the man tastes the red wine of his brother’s veins, feeling the blood’s heat where it lands on his bearded skin, tasting of metals yet undiscovered and seas yet unseen. As the hot salt of spilt life burns his tongue, the man knows with impossible clarity: He is the first. Mankind – in all its myriad forms on the thousandfold path from wretched lizard-thing to warm-blooded mammal – has always fought to survive. Even as hunched ape-creatures and brutish proto-men, it waged insignificant and miserable wars upon itself with fists and teeth and rocks. Yet this man is the first. Not the first to hate, nor even the first to kill. He is the first to take life in cold blood. He is the first to murder. His dying brother’s thrashing hand reaches for him, raking dirty nails across his sweating skin. Seeking mercy or vengeance? The man doesn’t know, and in his rage he doesn’t care. He drives the wooden spear deeper into the yielding hardness of meat and against the scrape of bone. Still he screams, still he roars. The scream of the first murderer cuts through the veil, echoing across reality and unreality alike. To the things that wait in the warp, mankind will never sing a sweeter song. Need to reread I thought that exact passage was describing the emperors uncle killing his father, I think it's an editing error about the Bronze, the spear makes sense given the age the Emperor is supposed to be, sorry if I came across as aggressive, anyway off to bed now will look at latter.And this is were I got the birth of the Emperor from being 50,000 years ago that describes a stone age tribe, not 8,000 years ago. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355654-god-emperor-and-empress/page/6/#findComment-5305968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The God Empress Of Mankind Posted May 2, 2019 Author Share Posted May 2, 2019 The Emperors uncle killing his father was explicitly not the 'first murder' which created drach'nyen, this is stated in the book. The first murder happened long before that. KILLING TO SURVIVE IS NOT MURDER. How many times to I have to say that. Every single human WILL KILL ANOTHER HUMAN TO SURVIVE (you are naive if you don't understand this), however very FEW humans will kill another human in cold blood for personal advancement or to satisfy some petty grievance. However slightly off topic but each and everyone of us is capable of murder given the right circumstances. Shouting won't make you right and apparently it doesn't help you reading either. With no word he claimed that every kill before that one murder in the Emperor's memory was supposed to be murder. All he said is that murder happened before the time his memory is in already and that's a fact. He wasn't remembering the first murder. He was remembering A murder. The first murder happened long long before the Emperor walked the earth. Killing is not murder, he did not say that we had been murdering each other he said we had been killing each other, it clearly says the daemon was spawned from the first murder which was the murder of the emperors father. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355654-god-emperor-and-empress/page/6/#findComment-5305971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 Your correct some of us are heartless c**** in the way we treat men. However I am assuming my Empress is a mother figure to the Primarchs, just as the Emperor was a father, yes he wasn't but they thought he was, so from their point of view he was their father.Okay: 1) I never addressed how women might address men, or vice versa. So you can drop your overly aggressive posture right there. 2) The Primarchs did not all interact with the Emperor as a father and child group. They weren’t children. Others have stated better than I that the Primarchs were already well past mentally mature, developed children by the time the Emperor found them. It doesn’t matter if your thought experiment predicates a caring, doting Empress to cradle the Primarchs and lovingly kiss their boo-boos (or just a mother figure, which doesn’t mean diddly at all and you are couching in a flawed stereotype view) - that’s not how they came to the Emperor. A caring figure doesn’t matter a whit to Horus - that tainted dagger still gets him, he still turns. It doesn’t matter to Magnus - he’s already made his in-roads to power in th Warp and become ensnared. It doesn’t matter to Mortarion - he’s already been brutalized and tainted by Barbarus. It doesn’t matter to Antron - he already has his Nails and his enslaved fighting in the arenas. It doesn’t matter to the Night Haunter, he already has his traumas, his brutal regime of compliance through terror. Maybe it helps adjust the Phoenician some, personally I doubt it. The road back from traumas like these take far longer, sometimes a life time doesn’t cut it, so the period of time from when they were found until they were turned loose at the heads of their Legions was unlikely to provide that time to change the results of this just because of a single “caring” individual, no matter how powerful. It’s all good though, this is my personal last feeding of the troll. You want to hear yourself talk and have others declare you right. Good day, sir - *tip of the hat* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355654-god-emperor-and-empress/page/6/#findComment-5305974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 This thread is such a :cuss show. It's like talking to a wall... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355654-god-emperor-and-empress/page/6/#findComment-5305977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 The Emperors uncle killing his father was explicitly not the 'first murder' which created drach'nyen, this is stated in the book. The first murder happened long before that. KILLING TO SURVIVE IS NOT MURDER. How many times to I have to say that. Every single human WILL KILL ANOTHER HUMAN TO SURVIVE (you are naive if you don't understand this), however very FEW humans will kill another human in cold blood for personal advancement or to satisfy some petty grievance. However slightly off topic but each and everyone of us is capable of murder given the right circumstances. Shouting won't make you right and apparently it doesn't help you reading either. With no word he claimed that every kill before that one murder in the Emperor's memory was supposed to be murder. All he said is that murder happened before the time his memory is in already and that's a fact. He wasn't remembering the first murder. He was remembering A murder. The first murder happened long long before the Emperor walked the earth. Killing is not murder, he did not say that we had been murdering each other he said we had been killing each other, it clearly says the daemon was spawned from the first murder which was the murder of the emperors father. The second passage is the murder that spawns Drach'nyen. Which is a murder with a spear. The Emperor's father was murdered with a bronze knife. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355654-god-emperor-and-empress/page/6/#findComment-5305978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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