Who do you think deserves a Codex of their own?

[RolandTHTG]

My proposal included a 100% complete generic marine book, with basic chapter tactics and stratagems, and every unit, classic and primaris, needed to field a complete Space Marine army. 

Even most of the iconic armies, a new player would be able to use out of the main book, at maybe a cost in minor rules or counts-as. It's only if you wanted to go further in-depth with a specific force would you need to buy the 2nd book for that focus. But a guy playing 4th company Ultramarines, 5th company Dark Angels, or 3rd company Blood angels would be able to stay with one book. 

 

As a primary CSM player, Even with our re-released 2.0 codex, we're already in that situation. If you wanted expanded Black Legion relics or stratagems, you need Vigilus 2. If you want a renegade force beyond the generic advance and charge, Vigilus 2 has 5 expanded options (legion trait, warlord trait, relic, and stratagem) that are not in the CSM Codex.  

Heck, Crimson fists already have the White dwarf they need if they want expanded options. 

 

There have been plenty of players that complain about too much Ultramarine in their book, or that they want to know more about other chapters. Here's a good way to do it. If you never want to see Calgar in your books again, don't buy the Ultramarine sub-book. If, like me, you want more White Scars content, you get the book including them, and hopefully get more options and a special unit to field out of it, so you can stop looking wistfully at DA blacktalons. 

[MARK0SIAN]

My proposal included a 100% complete generic marine book, with basic chapter tactics and stratagems, and every unit, classic and primaris, needed to field a complete Space Marine army.

Even most of the iconic armies, a new player would be able to use out of the main book, at maybe a cost in minor rules or counts-as. It's only if you wanted to go further in-depth with a specific force would you need to buy the 2nd book for that focus. But a guy playing 4th company Ultramarines, 5th company Dark Angels, or 3rd company Blood angels would be able to stay with one book.

 

As a primary CSM player, Even with our re-released 2.0 codex, we're already in that situation. If you wanted expanded Black Legion relics or stratagems, you need Vigilus 2. If you want a renegade force beyond the generic advance and charge, Vigilus 2 has 5 expanded options (legion trait, warlord trait, relic, and stratagem) that are not in the CSM Codex.

Heck, Crimson fists already have the White dwarf they need if they want expanded options.

 

There have been plenty of players that complain about too much Ultramarine in their book, or that they want to know more about other chapters. Here's a good way to do it. If you never want to see Calgar in your books again, don't buy the Ultramarine sub-book. If, like me, you want more White Scars content, you get the book including them, and hopefully get more options and a special unit to field out of it, so you can stop looking wistfully at DA blacktalons.

I’m not defending the current situation in needing so many books, quite the opposite. But if you only want to include the generic units in the base book then you can’t really play many of the chapters because the unique units are what makes the chapter, otherwise you’re just playing red marines, green marines or black marines.

 

If you’re going to print a detailed book for chapters like BA or IF/CF, then why not just include the basic stuff in there too? That way you haven’t got to look across two books for all your units and you haven’t got to buy two books to play them.

 

Stuff like vigilus is a nice idea as a campaign book but I think they should centralise the rules every so often.

[Red_Shift]

Personally I would love a 'Last Wall' book. Not for any game play reasons, I would just greatly enjoy reading the book and customising my units. I know I can do that anyway but a couple of characters and some painted examples can really inspire hobby activity.

[Subtleknife]

Hmm I have a gut feeling that if this 30k approach was going to take place...which I hope it does, it wont happen with vanilla marines. Call it a hunch, but codex primaris would be a perfect start.

[RolandTHTG]

MARK0SIAN, I currently play White scars, aka white marines, but I can just about guarantee that my army lined up next Iron Hands, aka Black and silver marines, would look and play different.
Are you saying that due to the fact that we don't have unique units outside 1 character, we "can't really play" the chapters? 

 

I suggested a unified book for the generic units because it means there's more room for fluff and illustrated examples in the chapter books, rather than duplicating the 80+ "generic" datasheets currently included in the codex and index. 

[MajorNese]

Hmm I have a gut feeling that if this 30k approach was going to take place...which I hope it does, it wont happen with vanilla marines. Call it a hunch, but codex primaris would be a perfect start.

This.

 

In case of primaris, almost every chapter is the same. At the moment, there's a few named characters/special wargear here or there, specialist detachments for some, but all other units are completely the same (not counting DW). There are still a lot of options missing to make it a well-rounded codex that fits every playstyle, but a unified codex would work there. And in that case, they could expand it the way they did CSM and Vigilus 2, just to give it a bit more meat.

 

And that's what I guess will happen - gradually increase options for all chapters (and thereby players), instead of showering one primarch's descendants with lots of stuff and not getting any cash from all others. Vigilus 2 is an example of that - it threw in a chapter tactic for each of the 4 gods plus Red Corsairs (like CF, a unique non-legion/first founding group) and a demon engine one, and units/specialist detachments/relics for everyone.

 

In contrast, by giving DA/BA/SW lots of different sprues for unique oldmarine units, a unified oldmarine codex would include a lot of stuff that most players could never field - basically an Index Imperium 1 reboot with strats/chapter tactics/relics, just without the legacy units. There is not much point in doing that, it would just start to put DA/BA/SW players into the same position BT had several editions ago.

[MARK0SIAN]

MARK0SIAN, I currently play White scars, aka white marines, but I can just about guarantee that my army lined up next Iron Hands, aka Black and silver marines, would look and play different.

Are you saying that due to the fact that we don't have unique units outside 1 character, we "can't really play" the chapters?

 

I suggested a unified book for the generic units because it means there's more room for fluff and illustrated examples in the chapter books, rather than duplicating the 80+ "generic" datasheets currently included in the codex and index.

But in your example those two armies don’t have any unique units to define them. Whereas if I wasn’t playing Death company or sanguinary Guard I wouldn’t feel like I was really playing Blood Angels, just red marines.

 

And it still doesn’t address the fact that I’d have to buy two books instead of one to play that army with the flavour I want, whereas now I can just buy the one book.

 

If you want more lore then I’m absolutely fine with the idea of releasing a second book for each chapter that is purely lore/background/painting tips etc because then purchase of it would be optional. We should be aiming to minimise the amount people are forced to spend on rules for the game.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

Out of curiosity what would we gain by switching to one main codex? I mean having all the rules in one place would be nice, but would we need to buy a new book whenever anything gets updated? Would we have the same amount of fluff (Its why I started wolves so to me this is a big point), would the chapter tactics get consolidated?

The main codex imo would be just rules and generic SM history. So much smaller than the current one. The chapter specific ones would contain lore, chapter tactics, stratagems, and unit specific entries. This way a Sally player doesn't have to drag UM information with him but only his Sally stuff. For a more diverse chapter likes SW's it would need up being the same size as the current book then.

 

The updates would be handled how they current do it.

 

 

My concern with this model is that GW doesn't really give much of discount for supplements. So for someone like me, I'd have to buy the base codex, plus the Space Wolf & Deathwatch expansions, compared to just buying 2 of the 3 books.

 

Also if you cut content from the main book, then yeah players don't have to read about Ultramarines but It doesn't add more content. It would be better to have an Ultramarines codex, and then flesh out the remaining chapters more.

 

 

[Guest]

 

 

Out of curiosity what would we gain by switching to one main codex? I mean having all the rules in one place would be nice, but would we need to buy a new book whenever anything gets updated? Would we have the same amount of fluff (Its why I started wolves so to me this is a big point), would the chapter tactics get consolidated?

 

The main codex imo would be just rules and generic SM history. So much smaller than the current one. The chapter specific ones would contain lore, chapter tactics, stratagems, and unit specific entries. This way a Sally player doesn't have to drag UM information with him but only his Sally stuff. For a more diverse chapter likes SW's it would need up being the same size as the current book then.

The updates would be handled how they current do it.

 

My concern with this model is that GW doesn't really give much of discount for supplements. So for someone like me, I'd have to buy the base codex, plus the Space Wolf & Deathwatch expansions, compared to just buying 2 of the 3 books.

 

Also if you cut content from the main book, then yeah players don't have to read about Ultramarines but It doesn't add more content. It would be better to have an Ultramarines codex, and then flesh out the remaining chapters more.

Unfortunately this is a new way of doing something and GW would have to change things so the core+1 mini-dex would end up being roughly the same as a single codex. So for you, you would need 1 core plus 2 chapters, lets say 40 for the core and 30 for each mini-dex. Thats 100 vs the current 120.

 

The point of the main codex is not to add anything, it is a skeleton for you to hang the chapters specific stuff onto. Yes now it's 3 books but they are each much smaller than the originals.

 

You are applying old ideals to a new system. New ideals would need to match a new system.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

I, personally, like the current "single big Codex for some Chapters" thing. I do think there should be a unified Codex with minor fluff for everyone and all the generic units (plus Ultrasmurf specials) as well as other big Codices (BA, BT, DA, SW, Last Wall and IH) for other Chapters.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

 

Out of curiosity what would we gain by switching to one main codex? I mean having all the rules in one place would be nice, but would we need to buy a new book whenever anything gets updated? Would we have the same amount of fluff (Its why I started wolves so to me this is a big point), would the chapter tactics get consolidated?

 

The main codex imo would be just rules and generic SM history. So much smaller than the current one. The chapter specific ones would contain lore, chapter tactics, stratagems, and unit specific entries. This way a Sally player doesn't have to drag UM information with him but only his Sally stuff. For a more diverse chapter likes SW's it would need up being the same size as the current book then.

The updates would be handled how they current do it.

My concern with this model is that GW doesn't really give much of discount for supplements. So for someone like me, I'd have to buy the base codex, plus the Space Wolf & Deathwatch expansions, compared to just buying 2 of the 3 books.

 

Also if you cut content from the main book, then yeah players don't have to read about Ultramarines but It doesn't add more content. It would be better to have an Ultramarines codex, and then flesh out the remaining chapters more.

Unfortunately this is a new way of doing something and GW would have to change things so the core+1 mini-dex would end up being roughly the same as a single codex. So for you, you would need 1 core plus 2 chapters, lets say 40 for the core and 30 for each mini-dex. Thats 100 vs the current 120.

 

The point of the main codex is not to add anything, it is a skeleton for you to hang the chapters specific stuff onto. Yes now it's 3 books but they are each much smaller than the originals.

 

You are applying old ideals to a new system. New ideals would need to match a new system.

How do you get 120 for what they’re paying now? A single codex is 25, if he needs 2 of them he’s only paying 50 now. There’s no way buying 3 books will be cheaper than buying 2 from GW.

 

The smallest codex in the range in terms of data sheets is (I think) the Custodes one. That’s probably got the same number of data sheets as you would need for a Blood Angels or Space Wolves mini-Dex and is still the same price as every other codex. There’s no basis for thinking that an add on book would be any cheaper than existing codexes.

 

It’s not an outdated or old ideal to want all your rules in one place, to need as few books as possible or to have to spend as little as possible on just the rules. In fact consolidating the number of books was stated to be one of the goals of 8th edition (even though that’s laughable now).

 

Imagine a new player starting the hobby. A young player (who the game needs) would be told you need the basic rulebook, and this basic rules book of marines, oh but you want to play a specific chapter? Well then you must buy this book too. Oh and by the way, everything in the book I’m selling you has been updated and the values changed so you will also need this annual publication called chapter approved. Can I also interest you in this campaign supplement with additional rules in?

 

So four or five books at 25-30 per book so over 100 on just the books to play the game before you’ve even started on models! At this point, the young player (or their parents) quite accurately decide that this has all the signs of some scam and no more new player.

 

Now the current system is only one book better than that which is terrible but wanting to add more books to the pile just makes it even worse. I am firmly against any system which either increases the number of books I need for an army or increases how much I would need to spend on the rules for an army. The idea that it could somehow be cheaper just doesn’t stack up with GWs track record and similar publications.

[Guest]

Sorry for some reason I had it in my head the limited ed. But reduce the price to 15 if it's 25.

 

Again you fall into the fallacy of thinking with old ideals. You mention updates as costing money, however GW gives free updates on the site for this now. Chapter approved would be necessary if you had a single codex too. So again your back to only 1 additional book, and again only slightly more.

 

Whoever said you had to buy a mini-dex? A core book would have everything a new player would need to start, a chapter mini-dex would be a growth stage like a FW book.

 

You are making exaggerated statements to prove a already existent issue on the current format.

[MARK0SIAN]

Sorry for some reason I had it in my head the limited ed. But reduce the price to 15 if it's 25.

 

Again you fall into the fallacy of thinking with old ideals. You mention updates as costing money, however GW gives free updates on the site for this now. Chapter approved would be necessary if you had a single codex too. So again your back to only 1 additional book, and again only slightly more.

 

Whoever said you had to buy a mini-dex? A core book would have everything a new player would need to start, a chapter mini-dex would be a growth stage like a FW book.

 

You are making exaggerated statements to prove a already existent issue on the current format.

GW does not give the points updates for free except in certain situations. Also if you want to play a full Blood Angels or Space Wolves force you would have to buy the mini-dex, there’s just too many unique units. And even if you could play a force with the barebones book, how is that better than now when I can play the full force of a chapter with just one book? I don’t need an expansion.

 

I’m not trying to exaggerate, it’s a case of me genuinely not understanding what it is I’m missing that makes you think splitting up a single book now into two books is better for me as a consumer. As I said, I certainly can’t see any evidence it would be cheaper, there’s no reason to suspect that at all.

[Guest Triszin]

Honestly, Im more at a

 

Codex: compliant

Codex: non-compliant

 

stage.

 

If possible roll as many "non codex" books into one book as possible. save (dark angels, blood angels and wolves)

 

Codex compliant: Ultramarines, any chapter that basically follows it, most of imperial fist off spring and such, raven gaurd.

 

codex noncompliant: templars, space sharks, minotaurs, any chapter that doesnt follow or diverges enough to warrant their own thing.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I don't understand the claims that the Ultramarines should be "fleshed out more". The Ultramarines introduced some Veterans that were united by being better at anti-Tyranid tactics, and it basically threw the Chapter into crisis. Over Veterans that are better at killing one sort of xenos than others, because the Codex apparently explicitly stipulates that Veterans must be equally good at killing all foes, so if brother Bob learns how to kill Orks really well, he damn well better throw off his aim to keep his kill-counts equal.

 

Given the hissy-fit the Ultramarines threw over this, I really, really can't see them introducing any other sort of special units. They might have their own names for things, as the Codex allows, but I can't see the Ultramarines, one of, if not the, most Codex-adherent Chapters deviating from the Codex Astartes.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Sorry for some reason I had it in my head the limited ed. But reduce the price to 15 if it's 25.

 

Again you fall into the fallacy of thinking with old ideals. You mention updates as costing money, however GW gives free updates on the site for this now. Chapter approved would be necessary if you had a single codex too. So again your back to only 1 additional book, and again only slightly more.

 

Whoever said you had to buy a mini-dex? A core book would have everything a new player would need to start, a chapter mini-dex would be a growth stage like a FW book.

 

You are making exaggerated statements to prove a already existent issue on the current format.

Chapter approved would still be mandatory in a book and index model. On pricing I understand where your coming from I just don't have faith in them to do it.

 

That said I don't know if there should be a growth stage. I understand it with forgeworld because it's a different range but for regular GW it seems excessive.

[Captain Idaho]

1) Ultramarines aren't the standard Marines. They follow the teachings/way of war of Guilliman closest but they are a warrior culture akin to ancient Sparta tempered with Rome. There's plenty of room to make them unique.

 

2) Dark Angels and Blood Angels are fairly Codex compliant.

 

3) Codex Compliant is a vague term often confused with absolutes. It's rather practices such as deploying as fast moving skirmishers when against a superior force on an open plain rather than building a fortress, or giving Chainswords to your troops when they assault a space craft, or cutting the head of an enemy instead of building a fortress.

[MajorNese]

1) Ultramarines aren't the standard Marines. They follow the teachings/way of war of Guilliman closest but they are a warrior culture akin to ancient Sparta tempered with Rome. There's plenty of room to make them unique.

In 30k, I would have absolutely agreed. But in 40k, they are doing absolutely everything literally by the book. They are not specializing in one area (like lightning assault/WS, all flamer/Salamanders) but prefer to do a bit of everything, which does mean they don't stand out as much as others. They got enough options via characters to work differently than other chapters (for examples the rules of Telion would be fluffy for RG, Chronus for IH,...), but I don't think there is any way to make them truly unique in their allroundedness beyond what they are doing now. And they still got way more characters/special units than any other C:SM chapter, that should be enough already.

[Captain Idaho]

By the book just means flexible. It doesn't mean they can't have a Phalanx of Sword and Board Marines where appropriate, or a rule to represent their philosophy of returning with their shield or lifeless upon it, or how they follow their honour first and guard it well, or a myriad of other rules relevant to their character.

 

A little opinion on special characters - I think how they are now they're bad for the game. To emphasise the favour of some factions you need to have that character and we get every person using said faction with that character.

 

If each faction had plenty of rules it wouldn't matter...

[MajorNese]

or a rule to represent their philosophy of returning with their shield or lifeless upon it, or how they follow their honour first and guard it well, or a myriad of other rules relevant to their character.

They have +1 Ld (on a faction that already has free morale rerolls), so they are less probable to run away and instead fight until death, which kinda means the same as "with their shield or lifeless upon it". Honour First is the same - running away would be dishonourable, so they don't. Unless it means the good old chaos-y auto-challenge - they could add it, but I doubt that's what anyone wants. Of course, they could give the morale buff rule a fancier, sparta-roman name, but the result would be the same.

[Captain Idaho]

Well here's an example of something new, a Strategum like Wall of Blades - Use this Strategum at the start of the Fight Phase on a unit of Ultramar Phalanx (new unit) or Breachers (come on I had to show horn it in!); that unit can reroll failed saves of a one. In addition, any saves of a natural 6 cause an automatic S4 AP- hit on the attacking unit.

 

Or something for existing units/rules:

 

Co-ordinated Fire: if an enemy unit has already be fired upon by a Troops choice (being lazy) then all bolt weapons of any additional Troops choices that target that unit can reroll all wounds for the rest of the turn.

[TrawlingCleaner]

Imo, the chapters that needed separate codexes already have separate codexes. I do think that the chapter traits for the standard marine codex are in dire need of a redo/upgrades and I think Gw are aiming towards doing this with the WD indexes

[Lord_Caerolion]

By the book just means flexible. It doesn't mean they can't have a Phalanx of Sword and Board Marines where appropriate, or a rule to represent their philosophy of returning with their shield or lifeless upon it, or how they follow their honour first and guard it well, or a myriad of other rules relevant to their character.

 

A little opinion on special characters - I think how they are now they're bad for the game. To emphasise the favour of some factions you need to have that character and we get every person using said faction with that character.

 

If each faction had plenty of rules it wouldn't matter...

While that’s the interpretation I’d prefer to take, it remains canon that to many in the Ultramarines, the Tyrannic War Veterans were a gross breach of the Codex. Not units with different gear, but essentially Sternguard who were better at fighting Tyranids than Eldar.

[Trevak Dal]

I personally believe all or nothing. We can make it work to have a Codex that works for all Chapters then some expansions for individuals as the 3rd edition or HH books.

 

Alternatively, the Chapters who are most popular should get stuff first. Black Templars seem big, as there's always the odd nutcase out there swinging his power maul about the gaming groups.

 

Ultramarines or rather Codex Ultramar seems like an obvious one as Guilliman is a big part of the lore.

 

And I don't want this to become a Classic vs Primaris discussion but I'd like a Codex Primaris release with a bunch of Primaris Chapters detailed therein. I say this because I recognise that Primaris is popular and folk should get support if they bought into it.

 

Let's see what the Primaris Chapters are like.

 

Let's make the 2 force a distinct. If you want Primaris in your Classic Marines force or vice versa, that's what Keywords are for ;)

The Horus heresy books stand as a testament that you can have the singular army list(s) and then have the snowflake stuff for ALL loyalist and traitor armies and that any legion can (practically) have any type of list.

 

If you want to have a iron hands jump army...yo dawg, you take this rite of war and use these models/dataslates and BAM, cybernetic jump infantry. What about a World Eater artillery and Heavy support force? You can do that too.

 

Oh I'm super down for a Primaris codex. If I'd known about them I would have skipped on the betrayal at calth boxes and bought JUST intecessors and power armor bits.

[Ordo Machinum]

 

Codex Astartes

Index: The Unforgiven (all DA based rules and units)

Index: Blood of the Angel (All BA based, inc. Flesh Tearers and such)

Index: Sons of Dorn (Imperial and Crimson Fists, Black Templars, etc)

Index: Pride of Ultramar (Ultramarines, known closely connected successors, ect)

Index: Tip of the spear (Raven Guard and White Scars, including successors)

Index: Artificers of Marines (Salamanders and Iron Hands, etc)

Index: Space Wolves? (This is actually the only one that I could see as a free standing codex with all rules included, with maybe a chapter tactic in the main codex to use for primaris decedents)

Index: Lost sons (For chapters that have diverged from the above too far to be grouped easily, and a way to bring in Forge World chapters. Relictors, Minotaurs, Red Scorpions, Carchodons, Emperor's Spears, Storm Wardens, etc) 

Index: New Breed (IF they want to highlight primaris chapters)

 

This reminds me of 3e with the smaller marine codexes. Sounds good to me. Then, there's the debate of using two books for an army.

 

Maybe GW could just revisit their "Index" approach. Beef the 8e Indexes up to BRB size, a real Codex: Astartes with all flavors. If you could buy one book with BA, DA, SW, UM, etc wouldn't you? 4-5 armies in a book is a great deal at $60/book so no immediate threat of parents putting the kibosh on new players. Do the same with the other groupings of Xenos, Chaos, etc. 

 

Maybe that's too big an idea? 9e will be along most likely before it happens. 

 

What chapter can you pick that wouldn't cause turmoil with another chapter's fans?

"Oh, UM! Everything is ALWAYS about UM"

"Oh, WS! There goes RW from the DA"

"Oh, BT! Why should they get special attention?"

"Oh, IH! They get a new named character and now they're special?"

Etcetera. 

 

Salamanders. It has to be Salamanders. I am not aware of any complaints from them.