BSB Speculation

[taikishi]

Intercept damage, same as the Geminae.

[Atrus]

Yuck. So absolutely useless for bodyguards. So much using them to protect the Triumph.

 

Gosh that really bugs me. They specifically called Celestians out as one of the big feedback highlights that we said needed fixing and they said they'd address them. What do they do? Freaking nothing. Excuse me, they can reroll near a Cannoness. Woopy freaking do.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Atrus

[taikishi]

I've never done a fan-dex before, but now I really want to. And most of it would be restoring the weapon options that were lost, reducing points cost on some things, and removing the mandatory heavy bolters from Immolators and Exorcists.

 

Edit: Actually, except for the Geminae, I can tell you exactly what I'd do:

 

Equipment

Lost weapon options: returned

 

HQs

Generic Palantine HQ that can take a jump pack with about the statline of a Geminae, maybe another wound or two (max).

 

Troops

BSS: 8ppm

Import Conscripts from Guard under a different name. No AoF, gain Zealot rule, Ministorum keyword. Probably increase their cost by 1 per model.

 

Elites

Celestians: give them the option to take melee weapons and bolt pistols in place of their bolters. Maybe lower their cost to 9ppm.

Geminae: ??

Zeraphim: 16ppm with their power swords

 

FA

Seraphim: 10ppm

Dominions: restore their scout rule in transports. Leave them at 10ppm

 

Heavy Support

Exorcist: make heavy bolter optional

Retributors: 9ppm

 

Transports

Immolator: remove the random +2 points their cost increased. Make heavy bolter optional.

Edited November 18, 2019 by taikishi

[Servant of Dante]

I’ve been thinking about my fandex the last couple days, maybe I’ll make some updates. Maybe I’ll finally finish the 5 specialist detachments I have (I’ve got 2 and a half done or so).

[Closet Skeleton]

Valorous heart can fit a brigade of 150 sisters that ignore -2 ap in 2k. Not the killiest army but can laugh at tactical doctrine intercessors and most efficient other forms of anti-power armour firepower.

 

at £30 a box its probably £510 so I'm certainly not giving it a go but it might work.

 

Exactly this. The only difference being that the Codex did include pictures of said models, but I find that distinction being used as primary evidence of some sort of 'rushed release' pretty thin. 

 

Death Guard codex didn't have pics of the whole range.

 

* 17ppm S3 power swords

 

Power swords with an inbuilt to wound reroll, so clearly not just rushed together without thinking things through.

 

T4 is supposed to be an advantage, not everything should be s4.

 

Yuck. So absolutely useless for bodyguards. So much using them to protect the Triumph.

 

Not so useless if you take the one order that gets the 5+ mortal wound save I guess.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Closet Skeleton

[ERJAK]

 

 

It's not the lack of pictures that makes me thing the release was rushed. It was:

 

* still only two generic HQs, only one of which is Sororitas

* still only one troops choice (would be nice to have some variety)

* lack of Minor order traits after giving such to Marines, Eldar and Dark Eldar in books that released prior to this one

* loss of storm bolters, power mauls, and (for a canoness) eviscerators on models that already possessed said weapon options in pewter

* Dominions losing their scout move on transports

* units inexplicably going up in price, especially the Immolator, missionaries and preachers

* 17ppm S3 power swords

* Celestians being one of the most complained about units and their buff is negligible at best

* Geminae receiving no buffs to make them playable (2W characters with T3 still die to stiff breezes)

* doing everything they could to deliver on a 2019 release for an army that, after re-reading the codex from the video reviews, probably could have withstood another 3-6 months of playtesting

 

The lack of pictures just tells me the models weren't finished when the codex went off to printers 3-4 months ago.

I see you've jumped to a conclusion that I don't think any of those particularly mean, but I understand this is important to you so I'll just leave it at that.

 

I think it's a pretty solid, effective army with an interesting and tactically exciting mechanic that creates a situation where some of the things you've highlighted as negatives are greatly mitigated in exciting ways. I like that a lot. Sure, it's not Eldar Flying Circus or Space Marine levels of competitive, but that is fine by me. I need an army that isn't getting me the stink eye each time I unpack it, and I'd personally love to see more armies take after this book than any other potential option.

 

But that's just my view. I'll gladly take 100 codexes of this power level over ever receiving another situation as the trifecta of broken the space marine releases have become.

In reality it's a goofy, nonsensical army with a nominally useful mechanic that is unusable by the majority of efficient options in the book. Greatly mitigating negatives is not great game design. You shouldn't need to make significant investment in making the anchor around your neck lighter, there just shouldn't be an anchor.

 

Getting laughed at or pitied isn't much better than stink eye.

If you have 100 codexes at this level and 1 codex at marine level you have 1 codex.

[ERJAK]

Yuck. So absolutely useless for bodyguards. So much using them to protect the Triumph.

 

Gosh that really bugs me. They specifically called Celestians out as one of the big feedback highlights that we said needed fixing and they said they'd address them. What do they do? Freaking nothing. Excuse me, they can reroll near a Cannoness. Woopy freaking do.

 

I enjoy how they managed to make them way worse than shield drones or gun drones despite having worse characters to protect.

[ERJAK]

I've never done a fan-dex before, but now I really want to. And most of it would be restoring the weapon options that were lost, reducing points cost on some things, and removing the mandatory heavy bolters from Immolators and Exorcists.

 

Edit: Actually, except for the Geminae, I can tell you exactly what I'd do:

 

Equipment

Lost weapon options: returned

 

HQs

Generic Palantine HQ that can take a jump pack with about the statline of a Geminae, maybe another wound or two (max).

 

Troops

BSS: 8ppm

Import Conscripts from Guard under a different name. No AoF, gain Zealot rule, Ministorum keyword. Probably increase their cost by 1 per model.

 

Elites

Celestians: give them the option to take melee weapons and bolt pistols in place of their bolters. Maybe lower their cost to 9ppm.

Geminae: ??

Zeraphim: 16ppm with their power swords

 

FA

Seraphim: 10ppm

Dominions: restore their scout rule in transports. Leave them at 10ppm

 

Heavy Support

Exorcist: make heavy bolter optional

Retributors: 9ppm

 

Transports

Immolator: remove the random +2 points their cost increased. Make heavy bolter optional.

Personally, I think Zephyrim aren't as good as seraphim purely 1 to 1 and as such should be lower points. I would make taking the powerword a discount of 1ppm. At 10 they might be useful as a 1 of backline harasser.

[Osteoclast]

Kinda curious: Is this the first time that GW has shown off a range of human ethnicities when displaying new models?

[CaptainMarsh]

I think there are separate discussions to be had. Four, to be exact.

This codex in comparison to expectations. This met and exceeded most of my realistic expectations and fell short of my earnest hopes and dreams in others. A mixed bag, but one I view more positively than negatively.
 

In comparison to the beta codex. This is so outrageously superior that I can't even fathom effective arguments otherwise. What arguments that do exist focus on the nerfs that exist and seem to rather intentionally shortchange any buff or new element in play to the degree it seems an intentional *angle* to go into the comparison with.

 

In comparison to the index. This is a more interesting one. I think most of the time across most of the game the new codex is blatantly and obviously vastly superior, but the tricks of the index sister remain incredibly strong. Of course in my experience most such tactics only truly work on opponents that don't know to expect it. Index Sisters could surprise you but any opponent who had seen it happen even once could adapt to it. And once you remove the specific tricks? Index Sisters have zero capability in comparison to the new codex.

 

In comparison to the meta. Marines are the meta and everyone else is screwed. Sisters are in the same boat as most other codices. That isn't an indictment of this book. It is a damning indictment of Codex: Space Marines and its Supplements. There was no way Sisters were going to be on the same level. It is hard to imagine any other book approaching SM as well.

Edited November 18, 2019 by CaptainMarsh

[hhhdan]

Valorous heart can fit a brigade of 150 sisters that ignore -2 ap in 2k. Not the killiest army but can laugh at tactical doctrine intercessors and most efficient other forms of anti-power armour firepower.

 

at £30 a box its probably £510 so I'm certainly not giving it a go but it might work.

 

Exactly this. The only difference being that the Codex did include pictures of said models, but I find that distinction being used as primary evidence of some sort of 'rushed release' pretty thin. 

 

Death Guard codex didn't have pics of the whole range.

 

* 17ppm S3 power swords

 

Power swords with an inbuilt to wound reroll, so clearly not just rushed together without thinking things through.

 

T4 is supposed to be an advantage, not everything should be s4.

 

Yuck. So absolutely useless for bodyguards. So much using them to protect the Triumph.

 

Not so useless if you take the one order that gets the 5+ mortal wound save I guess.

 

If going that route, why take a brigade if you can fit more sisters in 2 battalions? 180 sisters to be exact

 

Celestine

Canoness

6x15 sisters

hospitaller (for morale ignore stratagem)

imagifier

 

Canoness

Missionary

6x15 sisters

[taikishi]

 

I've never done a fan-dex before, but now I really want to. And most of it would be restoring the weapon options that were lost, reducing points cost on some things, and removing the mandatory heavy bolters from Immolators and Exorcists.

 

Edit: Actually, except for the Geminae, I can tell you exactly what I'd do:

 

Equipment

Lost weapon options: returned

 

HQs

Generic Palantine HQ that can take a jump pack with about the statline of a Geminae, maybe another wound or two (max).

 

Troops

BSS: 8ppm

Import Conscripts from Guard under a different name. No AoF, gain Zealot rule, Ministorum keyword. Probably increase their cost by 1 per model.

 

Elites

Celestians: give them the option to take melee weapons and bolt pistols in place of their bolters. Maybe lower their cost to 9ppm.

Geminae: ??

Zeraphim: 16ppm with their power swords

 

FA

Seraphim: 10ppm

Dominions: restore their scout rule in transports. Leave them at 10ppm

 

Heavy Support

Exorcist: make heavy bolter optional

Retributors: 9ppm

 

Transports

Immolator: remove the random +2 points their cost increased. Make heavy bolter optional.

Personally, I think Zephyrim aren't as good as seraphim purely 1 to 1 and as such should be lower points. I would make taking the powerword a discount of 1ppm. At 10 they might be useful as a 1 of backline harasser.

 

 

One thing I did forget was to change bodyguard on all models with a similar ability (across every Codex) so it was intercept the hit on a 2+, taking the wounds normally (mortal if mortal, otherwise roll to-wound and then saves as normal).

 

As far as lowering the Zephyrim further, part of the problem is "how much is a jump pack worth?" They're a Celestian statline with jump packs, which would suggest at least 1-2ppm more than Celestians and at least 1ppm more than Seraphim for the extra attack and Ld. Then it comes down to "how much is Rapturous Blows worth?" If Celestians remain 10 but can now take weapon options, Zephyrim need to be at least 11-12 before weapon options. If Seraphim are 10 and Celestians are 9, Zephyrim need to be at least 11 because of their improved profile over Seraphim.

Edited November 19, 2019 by taikishi

[Fire Golem]

Kinda curious: Is this the first time that GW has shown off a range of human ethnicities when displaying new models?

Some of the AoS has been pretty good for that too.

[Zoatibix]

Indeed, AOS have been doing variations of skin tone and ethnicity for a year or two now.

[Slasher956]

So mentioned this in the General forum.... but how are we to deal with knights reliably now?  From what I can gleen our codex max strength is 8 both shooting & Combat...

 

Also why have PEngines lost 2 Strength, -1AP & 1 Damage and attack twice.... ?

 

 

Be interesting to see side by side comparisons of the 3 sisters lists in 8th....

 

 

EDIT - As down as I feel on what I've heard about this dex ... I'm still iin the camp of lets wait till we've got the dex in our hands and had a few games before we start writing our own fandexs!

Edited November 19, 2019 by Slasher956

[EmperorGTank]

Honestly in regards to the Pengines I think GW wants the Mortifiers to be our new go to Walker option. From the review it looks like all the new "toys" are effective in some way despite their drawbacks, from the Zephyrim to the Triumph. I also noticed Pengines hit on 4+ in CC now, while Mortifiers (which I would assume have BSS in there) hit on 3+. Its classic "we gave you new units with decent rules go buy them dont use what you already have."

[Lemondish]

So mentioned this in the General forum.... but how are we to deal with knights reliably now? From what I can gleen our codex max strength is 8 both shooting & Combat...

 

Also why have PEngines lost 2 Strength, -1AP & 1 Damage and attack twice.... ?

 

 

Be interesting to see side by side comparisons of the 3 sisters lists in 8th....

 

 

EDIT - As down as I feel on what I've heard about this dex ... I'm still iin the camp of lets wait till we've got the dex in our hands and had a few games before we start writing our own fandexs!

Triple Exorcists with reroll support will do quite well against Knights. Inaccurate melee attacks and low shot Str9+ are overrated for an army that is relying on t3, 3+ 1 wound models even if those units also have a reliable source of invulnerable saves.

[Commander Dawnstar]

Penitent Engines/Mortifiers with a pair of Penitent Flails get 15 Strength 6/-2/1 attacks each, rerolling hit rolls with Zealot. That's most likely why they can't fight twice now.

 

Doesn't explain why the Buzzblades are so much weaker in general though ...

[Slasher956]

Penitent Engines/Mortifiers with a pair of Penitent Flails get 15 Strength 6/-2/1 attacks each, rerolling hit rolls with Zealot. That's most likely why they can't fight twice now.

 

Doesn't explain why the Buzzblades are so much weaker in general though ...

 

Espically when you factor in losing 2 points of toughness, 2 wounds and a pip of FNP.......  (comparing the BoLS screen shot of a mortifier v the beta PEngine with the comments that the mortifier is 2" faster... statwise the improvement of BS means nothing and the loss of 1 pip of WS is counterbalanced by the zelot rule)

 

but yeah the 15 attacks thing does make sense for losing attacks twice (capped at 8 attacks)

 

 

EDIT - oh for the love of the Emperor... please GW get a : proof reader in!!

 

The BoLS screen shot of the Mortifier

 

 

It can additionally contain up to 5 Mortifiers

 

All previous codexs have had it worded 'include up to X  additional models'  .....so its it 1-5 or 1-6 squad size?

 

EDIT - I think its 1-5, but first read of it made me think it could be up to 6....

Edited November 19, 2019 by Slasher956

[Lemondish]

 

 

Penitent Engines/Mortifiers with a pair of Penitent Flails get 15 Strength 6/-2/1 attacks each, rerolling hit rolls with Zealot. That's most likely why they can't fight twice now.

 

Doesn't explain why the Buzzblades are so much weaker in general though ...

Espically when you factor in losing 2 points of toughness, 2 wounds and a pip of FNP....... (comparing the BoLS screen shot of a mortifier v the beta PEngine with the comments that the mortifier is 2" faster... statwise the improvement of BS means nothing and the loss of 1 pip of WS is counterbalanced by the zelot rule)

 

but yeah the 15 attacks thing does make sense for losing attacks twice (capped at 8 attacks)

 

 

EDIT - oh for the love of the Emperor... please GW get a :cuss: proof reader in!!

 

The BoLS screen shot of the Mortifier

It can additionally contain up to 5 Mortifiers

All previous codexs have had it worded 'include up to X additional models' .....so its it 1-5 or 1-6 squad size?

Weaker but cheaper seems to be the big theme here for these units.

[Banjulhu]

The Triumph of St Katherine is an 18 wound T3 Character.

I am suspicious of its ability to survive beyond turn 2 with all the multi-damage weapons kicking about (even with the 4++ Save and -1 to hit)

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

[tvih]

 

The Triumph of St Katherine is an 18 wound T3 Character.

 

I am suspicious of its ability to survive beyond turn 2 with all the multi-damage weapons kicking about (even with the 4++ Save and -1 to hit)

Well the operative word there is "character", since those multidamage weapons shouldn't be able to target it unless you put it up front!

[Servant of Dante]

It’s a character but it’s wound characteristic is 10+ so the character targeting rule doesn’t apply right?

[Kros Morotho]

So... I need to work up front-mounted heavy bolters for all of my existing Immos and Exors?