taikishi Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 Intercept damage, same as the Geminae. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356166-bsb-speculation/page/42/#findComment-5429353 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atrus Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 Yuck. So absolutely useless for bodyguards. So much using them to protect the Triumph. Gosh that really bugs me. They specifically called Celestians out as one of the big feedback highlights that we said needed fixing and they said they'd address them. What do they do? Freaking nothing. Excuse me, they can reroll near a Cannoness. Woopy freaking do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356166-bsb-speculation/page/42/#findComment-5429358 Share on other sites More sharing options...
taikishi Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 I've never done a fan-dex before, but now I really want to. And most of it would be restoring the weapon options that were lost, reducing points cost on some things, and removing the mandatory heavy bolters from Immolators and Exorcists. Edit: Actually, except for the Geminae, I can tell you exactly what I'd do: Equipment Lost weapon options: returned HQs Generic Palantine HQ that can take a jump pack with about the statline of a Geminae, maybe another wound or two (max). Troops BSS: 8ppm Import Conscripts from Guard under a different name. No AoF, gain Zealot rule, Ministorum keyword. Probably increase their cost by 1 per model. Elites Celestians: give them the option to take melee weapons and bolt pistols in place of their bolters. Maybe lower their cost to 9ppm. Geminae: ?? Zeraphim: 16ppm with their power swords FA Seraphim: 10ppm Dominions: restore their scout rule in transports. Leave them at 10ppm Heavy Support Exorcist: make heavy bolter optional Retributors: 9ppm Transports Immolator: remove the random +2 points their cost increased. Make heavy bolter optional. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356166-bsb-speculation/page/42/#findComment-5429368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servant of Dante Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 I’ve been thinking about my fandex the last couple days, maybe I’ll make some updates. Maybe I’ll finally finish the 5 specialist detachments I have (I’ve got 2 and a half done or so). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356166-bsb-speculation/page/42/#findComment-5429372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Closet Skeleton Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 Valorous heart can fit a brigade of 150 sisters that ignore -2 ap in 2k. Not the killiest army but can laugh at tactical doctrine intercessors and most efficient other forms of anti-power armour firepower. at £30 a box its probably £510 so I'm certainly not giving it a go but it might work. Exactly this. The only difference being that the Codex did include pictures of said models, but I find that distinction being used as primary evidence of some sort of 'rushed release' pretty thin. Death Guard codex didn't have pics of the whole range. * 17ppm S3 power swords Power swords with an inbuilt to wound reroll, so clearly not just rushed together without thinking things through. T4 is supposed to be an advantage, not everything should be s4. Yuck. So absolutely useless for bodyguards. So much using them to protect the Triumph. Not so useless if you take the one order that gets the 5+ mortal wound save I guess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356166-bsb-speculation/page/42/#findComment-5429398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERJAK Posted November 18, 2019 Author Share Posted November 18, 2019 It's not the lack of pictures that makes me thing the release was rushed. It was: * still only two generic HQs, only one of which is Sororitas * still only one troops choice (would be nice to have some variety) * lack of Minor order traits after giving such to Marines, Eldar and Dark Eldar in books that released prior to this one * loss of storm bolters, power mauls, and (for a canoness) eviscerators on models that already possessed said weapon options in pewter * Dominions losing their scout move on transports * units inexplicably going up in price, especially the Immolator, missionaries and preachers * 17ppm S3 power swords * Celestians being one of the most complained about units and their buff is negligible at best * Geminae receiving no buffs to make them playable (2W characters with T3 still die to stiff breezes) * doing everything they could to deliver on a 2019 release for an army that, after re-reading the codex from the video reviews, probably could have withstood another 3-6 months of playtesting The lack of pictures just tells me the models weren't finished when the codex went off to printers 3-4 months ago. I see you've jumped to a conclusion that I don't think any of those particularly mean, but I understand this is important to you so I'll just leave it at that. I think it's a pretty solid, effective army with an interesting and tactically exciting mechanic that creates a situation where some of the things you've highlighted as negatives are greatly mitigated in exciting ways. I like that a lot. Sure, it's not Eldar Flying Circus or Space Marine levels of competitive, but that is fine by me. I need an army that isn't getting me the stink eye each time I unpack it, and I'd personally love to see more armies take after this book than any other potential option. But that's just my view. I'll gladly take 100 codexes of this power level over ever receiving another situation as the trifecta of broken the space marine releases have become. In reality it's a goofy, nonsensical army with a nominally useful mechanic that is unusable by the majority of efficient options in the book. Greatly mitigating negatives is not great game design. You shouldn't need to make significant investment in making the anchor around your neck lighter, there just shouldn't be an anchor. Getting laughed at or pitied isn't much better than stink eye. If you have 100 codexes at this level and 1 codex at marine level you have 1 codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356166-bsb-speculation/page/42/#findComment-5429408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERJAK Posted November 18, 2019 Author Share Posted November 18, 2019 Yuck. So absolutely useless for bodyguards. So much using them to protect the Triumph. Gosh that really bugs me. They specifically called Celestians out as one of the big feedback highlights that we said needed fixing and they said they'd address them. What do they do? Freaking nothing. Excuse me, they can reroll near a Cannoness. Woopy freaking do. I enjoy how they managed to make them way worse than shield drones or gun drones despite having worse characters to protect. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356166-bsb-speculation/page/42/#findComment-5429415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERJAK Posted November 18, 2019 Author Share Posted November 18, 2019 I've never done a fan-dex before, but now I really want to. And most of it would be restoring the weapon options that were lost, reducing points cost on some things, and removing the mandatory heavy bolters from Immolators and Exorcists. Edit: Actually, except for the Geminae, I can tell you exactly what I'd do: Equipment Lost weapon options: returned HQs Generic Palantine HQ that can take a jump pack with about the statline of a Geminae, maybe another wound or two (max). Troops BSS: 8ppm Import Conscripts from Guard under a different name. No AoF, gain Zealot rule, Ministorum keyword. Probably increase their cost by 1 per model. Elites Celestians: give them the option to take melee weapons and bolt pistols in place of their bolters. Maybe lower their cost to 9ppm. Geminae: ?? Zeraphim: 16ppm with their power swords FA Seraphim: 10ppm Dominions: restore their scout rule in transports. Leave them at 10ppm Heavy Support Exorcist: make heavy bolter optional Retributors: 9ppm Transports Immolator: remove the random +2 points their cost increased. Make heavy bolter optional. Personally, I think Zephyrim aren't as good as seraphim purely 1 to 1 and as such should be lower points. I would make taking the powerword a discount of 1ppm. At 10 they might be useful as a 1 of backline harasser. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356166-bsb-speculation/page/42/#findComment-5429417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osteoclast Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 Kinda curious: Is this the first time that GW has shown off a range of human ethnicities when displaying new models? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356166-bsb-speculation/page/42/#findComment-5429433 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainMarsh Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 I think there are separate discussions to be had. Four, to be exact.This codex in comparison to expectations. This met and exceeded most of my realistic expectations and fell short of my earnest hopes and dreams in others. A mixed bag, but one I view more positively than negatively. In comparison to the beta codex. This is so outrageously superior that I can't even fathom effective arguments otherwise. What arguments that do exist focus on the nerfs that exist and seem to rather intentionally shortchange any buff or new element in play to the degree it seems an intentional *angle* to go into the comparison with. In comparison to the index. This is a more interesting one. I think most of the time across most of the game the new codex is blatantly and obviously vastly superior, but the tricks of the index sister remain incredibly strong. Of course in my experience most such tactics only truly work on opponents that don't know to expect it. Index Sisters could surprise you but any opponent who had seen it happen even once could adapt to it. And once you remove the specific tricks? Index Sisters have zero capability in comparison to the new codex. In comparison to the meta. Marines are the meta and everyone else is screwed. Sisters are in the same boat as most other codices. That isn't an indictment of this book. It is a damning indictment of Codex: Space Marines and its Supplements. There was no way Sisters were going to be on the same level. It is hard to imagine any other book approaching SM as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356166-bsb-speculation/page/42/#findComment-5429437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhhdan Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 Valorous heart can fit a brigade of 150 sisters that ignore -2 ap in 2k. Not the killiest army but can laugh at tactical doctrine intercessors and most efficient other forms of anti-power armour firepower. at £30 a box its probably £510 so I'm certainly not giving it a go but it might work. Exactly this. The only difference being that the Codex did include pictures of said models, but I find that distinction being used as primary evidence of some sort of 'rushed release' pretty thin. Death Guard codex didn't have pics of the whole range. * 17ppm S3 power swords Power swords with an inbuilt to wound reroll, so clearly not just rushed together without thinking things through. T4 is supposed to be an advantage, not everything should be s4. Yuck. So absolutely useless for bodyguards. So much using them to protect the Triumph. Not so useless if you take the one order that gets the 5+ mortal wound save I guess. If going that route, why take a brigade if you can fit more sisters in 2 battalions? 180 sisters to be exact Celestine Canoness 6x15 sisters hospitaller (for morale ignore stratagem) imagifier Canoness Missionary 6x15 sisters Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356166-bsb-speculation/page/42/#findComment-5429517 Share on other sites More sharing options...
taikishi Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 I've never done a fan-dex before, but now I really want to. And most of it would be restoring the weapon options that were lost, reducing points cost on some things, and removing the mandatory heavy bolters from Immolators and Exorcists. Edit: Actually, except for the Geminae, I can tell you exactly what I'd do: Equipment Lost weapon options: returned HQs Generic Palantine HQ that can take a jump pack with about the statline of a Geminae, maybe another wound or two (max). Troops BSS: 8ppm Import Conscripts from Guard under a different name. No AoF, gain Zealot rule, Ministorum keyword. Probably increase their cost by 1 per model. Elites Celestians: give them the option to take melee weapons and bolt pistols in place of their bolters. Maybe lower their cost to 9ppm. Geminae: ?? Zeraphim: 16ppm with their power swords FA Seraphim: 10ppm Dominions: restore their scout rule in transports. Leave them at 10ppm Heavy Support Exorcist: make heavy bolter optional Retributors: 9ppm Transports Immolator: remove the random +2 points their cost increased. Make heavy bolter optional. Personally, I think Zephyrim aren't as good as seraphim purely 1 to 1 and as such should be lower points. I would make taking the powerword a discount of 1ppm. At 10 they might be useful as a 1 of backline harasser. One thing I did forget was to change bodyguard on all models with a similar ability (across every Codex) so it was intercept the hit on a 2+, taking the wounds normally (mortal if mortal, otherwise roll to-wound and then saves as normal). As far as lowering the Zephyrim further, part of the problem is "how much is a jump pack worth?" They're a Celestian statline with jump packs, which would suggest at least 1-2ppm more than Celestians and at least 1ppm more than Seraphim for the extra attack and Ld. Then it comes down to "how much is Rapturous Blows worth?" If Celestians remain 10 but can now take weapon options, Zephyrim need to be at least 11-12 before weapon options. If Seraphim are 10 and Celestians are 9, Zephyrim need to be at least 11 because of their improved profile over Seraphim. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356166-bsb-speculation/page/42/#findComment-5429554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 Kinda curious: Is this the first time that GW has shown off a range of human ethnicities when displaying new models? Some of the AoS has been pretty good for that too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356166-bsb-speculation/page/42/#findComment-5429587 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoatibix Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 Indeed, AOS have been doing variations of skin tone and ethnicity for a year or two now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356166-bsb-speculation/page/42/#findComment-5429594 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher956 Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 So mentioned this in the General forum.... but how are we to deal with knights reliably now? From what I can gleen our codex max strength is 8 both shooting & Combat... Also why have PEngines lost 2 Strength, -1AP & 1 Damage and attack twice.... ? Be interesting to see side by side comparisons of the 3 sisters lists in 8th.... EDIT - As down as I feel on what I've heard about this dex ... I'm still iin the camp of lets wait till we've got the dex in our hands and had a few games before we start writing our own fandexs! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356166-bsb-speculation/page/42/#findComment-5429604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmperorGTank Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 Honestly in regards to the Pengines I think GW wants the Mortifiers to be our new go to Walker option. From the review it looks like all the new "toys" are effective in some way despite their drawbacks, from the Zephyrim to the Triumph. I also noticed Pengines hit on 4+ in CC now, while Mortifiers (which I would assume have BSS in there) hit on 3+. Its classic "we gave you new units with decent rules go buy them dont use what you already have." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356166-bsb-speculation/page/42/#findComment-5429614 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 So mentioned this in the General forum.... but how are we to deal with knights reliably now? From what I can gleen our codex max strength is 8 both shooting & Combat... Also why have PEngines lost 2 Strength, -1AP & 1 Damage and attack twice.... ? Be interesting to see side by side comparisons of the 3 sisters lists in 8th.... EDIT - As down as I feel on what I've heard about this dex ... I'm still iin the camp of lets wait till we've got the dex in our hands and had a few games before we start writing our own fandexs! Triple Exorcists with reroll support will do quite well against Knights. Inaccurate melee attacks and low shot Str9+ are overrated for an army that is relying on t3, 3+ 1 wound models even if those units also have a reliable source of invulnerable saves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356166-bsb-speculation/page/42/#findComment-5429615 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Dawnstar Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 Penitent Engines/Mortifiers with a pair of Penitent Flails get 15 Strength 6/-2/1 attacks each, rerolling hit rolls with Zealot. That's most likely why they can't fight twice now. Doesn't explain why the Buzzblades are so much weaker in general though ... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356166-bsb-speculation/page/42/#findComment-5429691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher956 Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 Penitent Engines/Mortifiers with a pair of Penitent Flails get 15 Strength 6/-2/1 attacks each, rerolling hit rolls with Zealot. That's most likely why they can't fight twice now. Doesn't explain why the Buzzblades are so much weaker in general though ... Espically when you factor in losing 2 points of toughness, 2 wounds and a pip of FNP....... (comparing the BoLS screen shot of a mortifier v the beta PEngine with the comments that the mortifier is 2" faster... statwise the improvement of BS means nothing and the loss of 1 pip of WS is counterbalanced by the zelot rule) but yeah the 15 attacks thing does make sense for losing attacks twice (capped at 8 attacks) EDIT - oh for the love of the Emperor... please GW get a : proof reader in!! The BoLS screen shot of the Mortifier It can additionally contain up to 5 Mortifiers All previous codexs have had it worded 'include up to X additional models' .....so its it 1-5 or 1-6 squad size? EDIT - I think its 1-5, but first read of it made me think it could be up to 6.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356166-bsb-speculation/page/42/#findComment-5429698 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 Penitent Engines/Mortifiers with a pair of Penitent Flails get 15 Strength 6/-2/1 attacks each, rerolling hit rolls with Zealot. That's most likely why they can't fight twice now. Doesn't explain why the Buzzblades are so much weaker in general though ... Espically when you factor in losing 2 points of toughness, 2 wounds and a pip of FNP....... (comparing the BoLS screen shot of a mortifier v the beta PEngine with the comments that the mortifier is 2" faster... statwise the improvement of BS means nothing and the loss of 1 pip of WS is counterbalanced by the zelot rule) but yeah the 15 attacks thing does make sense for losing attacks twice (capped at 8 attacks) EDIT - oh for the love of the Emperor... please GW get a :cuss: proof reader in!! The BoLS screen shot of the Mortifier It can additionally contain up to 5 Mortifiers All previous codexs have had it worded 'include up to X additional models' .....so its it 1-5 or 1-6 squad size? Weaker but cheaper seems to be the big theme here for these units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356166-bsb-speculation/page/42/#findComment-5429717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banjulhu Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 The Triumph of St Katherine is an 18 wound T3 Character.I am suspicious of its ability to survive beyond turn 2 with all the multi-damage weapons kicking about (even with the 4++ Save and -1 to hit) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356166-bsb-speculation/page/42/#findComment-5429727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356166-bsb-speculation/page/42/#findComment-5429730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvih Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 The Triumph of St Katherine is an 18 wound T3 Character. I am suspicious of its ability to survive beyond turn 2 with all the multi-damage weapons kicking about (even with the 4++ Save and -1 to hit) Well the operative word there is "character", since those multidamage weapons shouldn't be able to target it unless you put it up front! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356166-bsb-speculation/page/42/#findComment-5429751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servant of Dante Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 It’s a character but it’s wound characteristic is 10+ so the character targeting rule doesn’t apply right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356166-bsb-speculation/page/42/#findComment-5429763 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kros Morotho Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 So... I need to work up front-mounted heavy bolters for all of my existing Immos and Exors? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356166-bsb-speculation/page/42/#findComment-5429768 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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