Road to East China Open - Sept 2019

[Lynnean]

Looks like that list takes advantage of not having any proper targets for the opponents anti-knight weaponry.

That actually makes a lot of sense. Besides that, just play on objectives? 

[Majkhel]

Wow, that list might actually see devastators charging something! Sweet B)

[Morticon]

Looks like a fun list, actually!! Not quite sure how it would fair in my meta back home. Would probably do okay in the China scene. Though, I'd probs have 5more fists or so on the Sang Guard.

[Lynnean]

Does that free up enough points for more guard?

I was actually toying around with a variant on that list, bringing tarantulas instead of scout bikers and thunderhammers on the dc instead of power swords. Really interesting stuff!

 

EDIT: I forgot to add, it had an assassin as well

[keeblerartillery]

Did you see the weapon rules for the new repulsor? That las destroyer seems...compelling.

[keeblerartillery]

So as I was smoking a cigar contemplating life, I got to thinking about what made Blood Angels Blood Angels - and it made me realize I am just not a fan of the dreadnought fire support.  BA to me have always been awesome librarians (in a dreadnought or otherwise), fast, aggressive assault units (jump packs or drop pods or fast vehicles filled with angry fellas) supported by more fast vehicles (bikes, flyers (we used to be kings of the sky!) or fast tanks).  

So I decided to distill my lists down to just that and build from there and see what I could come up with - that FELT as BA as possible.  An observation from neonmole in his thread also got me thinking - he built his list around durable, mid-field control.  And that seems like a very BA theme to me - getting into the thick of things and staying there. 

That all said, I came up with several lists last night, which were focused on these principles - and I then flexed from there into synergy and tactics.  I've said all this to say - I know the dreads have been really good for you, but I feel like sicarans or xiphons fit what BA are more.  There is probably a lot about them that isn't optimized...but just my 2 cents!

[Lynnean]

So as I was smoking a cigar contemplating life, I got to thinking about what made Blood Angels Blood Angels - and it made me realize I am just not a fan of the dreadnought fire support. BA to me have always been awesome librarians (in a dreadnought or otherwise), fast, aggressive assault units (jump packs or drop pods or fast vehicles filled with angry fellas) supported by more fast vehicles (bikes, flyers (we used to be kings of the sky!) or fast tanks).

 

So I decided to distill my lists down to just that and build from there and see what I could come up with - that FELT as BA as possible. An observation from neonmole in his thread also got me thinking - he built his list around durable, mid-field control. And that seems like a very BA theme to me - getting into the thick of things and staying there.

 

That all said, I came up with several lists last night, which were focused on these principles - and I then flexed from there into synergy and tactics. I've said all this to say - I know the dreads have been really good for you, but I feel like sicarans or xiphons fit what BA are more. There is probably a lot about them that isn't optimized...but just my 2 cents!

I disagree, i think dreads support the BA theme better then sicarans do. Heavy tanks just dont fit the go in deep theme, while dreads are venerable heroes of the chapter shouting the angels forward.

But thats my vision

[keeblerartillery]

I think sicarans are currently the closest thing to what Baal preds used to be - they have a 14 inch move, great assault weapons and a durable frame that keeps up with the fast moving infantry. I guess furioso’s and death company dreads ARE uniquely BA, but I feel like they were still forward support - drop those bad bois in the enemy’s face (via drop pod or flyer support) and melt/chop away. Hence why long range dread support just didn’t feel super BA to me...but I’m now reconsidering how fluffy a leviathan dread is in light of this (i.e. - more fluffy)

[Morticon]

It's an interesting concept and thing to think about; "What makes BA, BA" - we have a few threads on it.  For me, there's a difference between "thematically BA" and "BA" .

 

A "BA army" is any army the owning player says it is.  He or she plays the Angels because he wants to- so i'm not going to take that away from them irrespective of how much I think it is or isn't a traditionally thematic BA style army -  a good example is the BA list that won a GT with the repulsors - almost no unique BA units at all, I believe.  Could have just as easily been an SM list. 

 

That being said, more thematically BA lists would have a strong leaning towards close combat and short range engagement, with a little bit of fire-support.  

 

The issue is that since 2nd ed, the fluff has touted "Codex Adherent, with minor differences".  The rules then pushed us in different directions.  

 

My 4th ed list had 3 tacs, 2 devs, 2 jumpers and a Chaplain led DC - according to fluff and theme- it was the "most BA" ive ever had.  Bubble-rage with Corbs/Dante became a big thing with the PDF codex, and supported jumpers there too.  

 

But, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter.  The overlap between fluffy and viable is often too small for us  - and much, much more so when we're hampering ourselves by playing mono-dex. 

 

Over-all though, I'm reluctant to dismiss lists as "not really BA"  (though i've admittedly done it in the past with lists I feel dont include any signature units) on account that they dont really contribute to an individuals enjoyment and rather facilitate a weird group think hivemind of what is and isn't acceptable - and for an individual hobby like this, i dont think that's fair on the people who want to enjoy their models the way they want to enjoy them. 


But back to the regular scheduled events! 

***************


First playtest with the pure BA list, DONE! 

 

I played against a pure nid list. Really cool, fun one.  (Behemoth and kraken)

 

Malanthrope

Swarmlord

Old One Eye

Flyrant

Flyrant

 

2 Fexes

Trygon

2x 20 Stealers

2x 3 rippers

2x 10 gants

 

*******

 

I was REALLY hoping to go first to try out the DC- but alas...it was not to be.  He got first, which meant the wave of 20 Stealers crashing into my lines - as is the unstoppable case.  This meant that to avoid wrap around and being locked in combat, i would need to provide a juicy target for him.  I offered my DC and chaplain- thinking that, with the 6 handflamers, they could do some really good damage.  

Alas...again....only 3 casualties were taken thanks to catalyst and some good saves.  

 

The DC and chaplain were wiped out.  

 

In my turn, however, smashy barrelled up towards the fexes, hoping to get off a trainwreck combo, thanks to my enemies placement! 

(Trainwreck combo is essentially when he kills one big target, fights again to kill another big target, consolidates into a third very big target - that hopefully kills him - only to use honour of the chapter to then damage or kill the third target.  

 

My plan was 2 fexes with one (just need two wounds on each) then moving to the Malanthrope, then moving to Old One Eye. 

After all this planning.....and with 7 attacks to play with, i whiffed and did 1 wound on each fex.  Had to use the fight again strat just to kill the first two <_< 

I was doing this gamble on account of me failing my wings roll for my Dread (first double 6 for Quickening, then double 1 for wings) 

 

That being said, the rest of the army had moved up to take out the stealers, and the Quad-Las contemptor one shotted the swarmlord.  It was glorious. 

 

 

In his second turn, a flyrant, the trygon and 20 stealers came down.  I think i did reasonably well here, only losing a few scout squads and bikers.   

Over the next few turns, things started getting tight in terms of the game and score.  I did take out the Trygon- but i whiffed 4 volleys of subsequent las shots from the dreads.  The backs of both our armies were broken, and Old One Eye was starting to run rampant playing clean up at the back, supported by one of the Flyrants. The dread bad luck flipped in overwatch when i rolled 3x 6s and took out the charging flyrant (who was on 9 wounds!)

 

The Vanguard landed at the back field where his special objective was- There wasn't much back there, but I needed to claim it if i had any chance of climbing back, score wise. 


By turn 6 my opponent had taken out all my dreads.  I only had a sniper squad of scouts, 5 intercessors, a lone scout sarge and my 10 vanguard left.  He had old one eye, 10 gants, 3 rippers and a Flyrant on 1 or 2 wounds left.  

Ended as a draw!! 

 

The last turn was rushed, and had I moved the scout onto the main objective, and then flown my VV off to engage his gants, I would have taken it...but in the end, was a great game. 


*****

Observations -  I threw Meph away.  And I gifted him the Dready with 4 wounds from perils.  I also had bad target priority from the captain who should have really gone for old one eye, rather than anything else.  

 

The army loses a HUGE amount of steam once the DC (and VV) are gone (or not there) - but this is obvious.  I really need to play it a lot better, as its less forgiving that the other lists. Targets must be chosen better/smarter.  

 

Once the DC are gone, 

[keeblerartillery]

Thanks for the feedback! And yea, I didn’t mean that as a personal attack, more just sharing my observations about MY list(s), that I heavily base off of yours and neons (as I greatly respect your tactical acumen). Solid comeback to the draw, looking forward to further insights! And yea, once our jump packs are gone...things go south

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Hey Mort really glad to see you’re giving Mephiston another go... he is a lynchpin unit imo.

[Morticon]

Thanks for the feedback! And yea, I didn’t mean that as a personal attack,..

 

Absolutely no sweat!!  Didn't see it that way at all!!  

Hey Mort really glad to see you’re giving Mephiston another go... he is a lynchpin unit imo.

 I played him REALLY poorly last game, so, hoping to change things up next time- see what he can do. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

It's an interesting concept and thing to think about; "What makes BA, BA" - we have a few threads on it.  For me, there's a difference between "thematically BA" and "BA" .

 

A "BA army" is any army the owning player says it is.  He or she plays the Angels because he wants to- so i'm not going to take that away from them irrespective of how much I think it is or isn't a traditionally thematic BA style army -  a good example is the BA list that won a GT with the repulsors - almost no unique BA units at all, I believe.  Could have just as easily been an SM list. 

 

That being said, more thematically BA lists would have a strong leaning towards close combat and short range engagement, with a little bit of fire-support.  

 

The issue is that since 2nd ed, the fluff has touted "Codex Adherent, with minor differences".  The rules then pushed us in different directions.  

 

My 4th ed list had 3 tacs, 2 devs, 2 jumpers and a Chaplain led DC - according to fluff and theme- it was the "most BA" ive ever had.  Bubble-rage with Corbs/Dante became a big thing with the PDF codex, and supported jumpers there too.  

 

But, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter.  The overlap between fluffy and viable is often too small for us  - and much, much more so when we're hampering ourselves by playing mono-dex. 

 

Over-all though, I'm reluctant to dismiss lists as "not really BA"  (though i've admittedly done it in the past with lists I feel dont include any signature units) on account that they dont really contribute to an individuals enjoyment and rather facilitate a weird group think hivemind of what is and isn't acceptable - and for an individual hobby like this, i dont think that's fair on the people who want to enjoy their models the way they want to enjoy them. 

 

 

I definitely feel this Mort!

 

For me, I like to play narrative based games more than competitive these days. So a lot of times I try to tell a story with my list. In Angel's Blade, Alphael had his full company set at 60 tactical marines, 20 assault marines and 10 total devastators to take to battle with him.

 

I'm actually working on a list much like that to build up for Apoc coming soon. If I do something like take a full company's worth of gen 1 marines I throw in the BA flair where I see fit. Many have called that "Not BA" but it really just goes to what you like. A full company looks damn good on the table top and you can always throw in a squad of DC if the points are there!

 

The only time I really get peeved is when a Soup list is called "BA" because its 1 point more than the next closest detachment. Stuff like that is when I give the ole eye-roll!

[Morticon]

Next play test:

 

Smashy

Libby Dread

Mephy

Astorath

 

3x 5 Scouts

1x 5 Snipers - cloaks

1x 5 Snipers 

1x 5 Intercessors

 

10x DC - 5Fists, 5Handflamers, JP

10x VV - 3Fists, 3Axes, 8 Shields, JP

 

5x Bikers- 2Plasma, 1Cmbi-Plas

5x Scout BIkers

 

Quad Mortis

Quad Mortis

Gonna see how the new shenanigans play out! 

[Morticon]

Had a cool test game vs. DA.

 

I was primed to go first, but he seized ....so bleak. Still, was good to see what worked and what didnt.

 

When the combos go off, this list is devastating. But, even with 5 specials in the fighty squads, its tough to make a dent in some things when they don't have support.

 

Will write a more detailed report soon, but BA took it 17-24 end of 5th

[Jolemai]

Food for thought, the following placed second at the Boise Cup over the weekend:

 

Thomas Hegstrom Oakley - Boise Cup

 

​

 

Detachment Battalion 5CP (Blood Angels) [34pl, 547pts]

 

Chapter tactics: Blood Angels

 

+HQ+

Sanginor [150pts, 9pl] x1

Chaplain with jump pack [99pts, 6pl] x1 powerfist

Librarian with jump pack [127pts, 7pl] x1 force sword, inferno pistol

 

​

 

+Troops+

Scouts [57pts, 4pl] x5 stormbolter on sergeant, combat knives, bolt pistols

Scouts [57pts, 4pl] x5 stormbolter on sergeant, combat knives, bolt pistols

Scouts [57pts, 4pl] x5 stormbolter on sergeant, combat knives, bolt pistols

 

Detachment Battalion 5CP (Blood Angels) [24pl, 434pts]

Chapter tactics:Blood Angels

 

+HQ+

Sanginuary Priest with jump pack index [86pts, 5pl] x1 chainsword, chainsword

Captain with jump pack [124pts, 6pl] x1 thunderhammer, stormshield

 

+Troops+

Scouts [57pts, 4pl] x5 stormbolter on sergeant, combat knives, bolt pistols

Scouts [57pts, 4pl] x5 stormbolter on sergeant, combat knives, bolt pistols

Infiltrators [110pts, 5pl] x5 bolt carbines

 

Detachment Vanguard 1CP (Blood Angels) [56pl, 918pts]

Chapter tactics:Blood Angels

 

+HQ+

Librarian in Phobos armour [111pts, 6pl] x1 force sword, camo cloak

 

+Elites+

Sanguinary Ancient [83pts, 6pl] x1 encarmine sword, inferno pistol, standard of sacrifice

Death Company [380pts, 27pl] x15 5 thunderhammers, 10 chainsword, 10 bolters

Sanguinary Guard [344pts, 20pl] x10 8 encarmine swords, 2 powerfists, 10 angelus boltguns

 

Operative Requisition Sanctioned -2 CP [5 pl, 85 pts]

TOTALS: 12 CP, 16 drops [119pl, 1984pts]

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/c7sf60/pandas_weekend_rundown_629630/

 

[Morticon]

Jol, I saw that! Very similar elements in mine. Smaller DC and SG instead of VV but otherwise, the elements working the same. I'm not sure how he did so well with those units being the only real threat other than the smashy, but its really awesome.

He's obviously making reallt good use of the bubbles. i'd love to know how sanguinor played, as well as the infiltrators. I'm guessing temporal corridor a lot for them to claim

 

Very keen to see how he's rocking his bubbles. 

[Morticon]

Got smashed by nids yesterday.  

Largely poor tactical play on my side, but also influenced heavily by a little rules misunderstanding on my partners part, which led to me to lose out in the long run (long story) and then some poor luck with damage and wounding dice (the latter only really making minimal difference in the end). The rules issue could have also been avoided had I placed mephy and the DC better, allowing me to use the +1 to attack power on the DC - but alas- must practice more with this list.

 

Went 2nd again (3rd time) - and had put my las dreads on the far left as bait, and built this amazing castle ready to take the stealer smash head on - it was the coolest castle ive set up!! Now with that said, its interesting playing against a regular opponent, because occasionally they, being on the receiving end, really have a more accurate assessment of some of the bigger threats of your list.  In this case, my opponent took the bait whole-heartedly, because he knew how his army worked - 2 tyrants and a trygon dropping in from turn 2/3  meant that he had all the staying power he needed if the dreads were gone.  Cause usually they caused havoc.  

 

It worked.  The dreads out of commission from turn 1 meants no long range firesupport. 

Wings was heavily shut down on the dread (and meph)- three times - and this severely gimped my plans and counter attacks.  The smash cap failed a 7" rerollable charge on a Fex, too  - and when he eventually counter attacked, whiffed and only killed on. 

 

 I then made the second biggest mistake of bringing in the vanvets too early- which means they were countered by the stealers that struck in. 

 

Oh well- much more practice needed to get this army up to where it can be! 

Mephy is great for the 2deny, and the +1, but in three games he's been lackluster - and another smashy would have been better.  Even a biker lib could have seen more reliable utility - i will need more opponents though to make a final call - i've just been playing him poorly. 

[Morticon]

Ive asked this before, but any ideas on where and how to upload pics? 

[Panzer]

I still recommend Imgur. ^^

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I use imgbb.com - really easy to use.

 

Remember Mephiston and Libby dread wound T8 on 2+ and hit on 2+. The LoD is a staple in my army... just keep practicing I’m sure it’ll work out sooner than later.

[keeblerartillery]

Had a game yesterday - no Meph, but used Astorath, DC, SG, 2x sicarans and 2x redemptors. The Astorath Mass + forlorn’d DC and Wings CPT worked SUPER well (thanks for the idea!) Killed 3 out of 4 of his vehicles T1. Astorath himself turned out to be a solid beat stick. At the end of the day, the sicarans and redemptors won it for me though - by T4 he didn’t have anything left that could hurt them and they just mulched through his forces consistently. Nothing crazy, but there is something to be said for persistent dakka. Plus one of the redemptors absolutely ate some stuff in CC. Still working on utilization - and also changing things up to try out the sanguinor supporting SG/Mephy+vets. But the sicarans and redemptors proved effective at getting to midboard and just not budging.

[Morticon]

Whoop whoop! Back in business. 
 

 

Some shots of the set up....

 

 

and the zerg nid rush....

 

 

and the last shot before I stopped taking pics...

 

[Morticon]

Had a game yesterday - no Meph, but used Astorath, DC, SG, 2x sicarans and 2x redemptors. The Astorath Mass + forlorn’d DC and Wings CPT worked SUPER well (thanks for the idea!) Killed 3 out of 4 of his vehicles T1. Astorath himself turned out to be a solid beat stick. At the end of the day, the sicarans and redemptors won it for me though - by T4 he didn’t have anything left that could hurt them and they just mulched through his forces consistently. Nothing crazy, but there is something to be said for persistent dakka. Plus one of the redemptors absolutely ate some stuff in CC. Still working on utilization - and also changing things up to try out the sanguinor supporting SG/Mephy+vets. But the sicarans and redemptors proved effective at getting to midboard and just not budging.

Awesome!! Glad it's proved solid. 

[Morticon]

Played game 3 in the best out of three vs. my Nid buddy. 

Taking Shaezus's advice, I made some switches and also swapped out a Contemptor for a sicaran. 

 

I took:

 

Smashy

Libby

Libby on Bike

Astorath

 

3x5 Scouts

2x5 Snipes (1 squad with cloaks)

1x5 Intercessors

 

5x Bikers

 

7x Sang Guard - fists

8x VanVet - 6 Shields, 2 axes, sword

10x DC - Hammer, 4fists, 5flamers

 

Quad Contemptor

Sicaran - HBSS

 

 

****************

I FINALLY got to go first, but was playing on the board quarter set up- which meant i still had a way to go.  Terrain was decent, which allowed my opponent an opportunity to deploy very defensively and out of the range of my Sicaran.  He deployed exceptionally well, making it really difficult to get to his meaty units without some effort. 

I Used forlorn and then used Wings on Fire to give the SangGuard a much more aggressive redeployment in counter position - but not aggressive enough to put them into a potential charge range- as that would leave them open to a swarmlord and Old one eye counter which would basically be a throwaway.

 

Luckily the DC rolled a 6 on their advance, which allowed some really good range on their forlorn.  The bad news was that with the board set up (diagonally) I wouldn't be able to use Mass of Doom as i'd need to string the dc too far back to hit astorath.  (It's been 3 games with him now, and i've only really gotten it off once, and made use of it once). 

The DC cleaned up the gaunt screen- but then, like a muppet, I got greedy and used the fight again strat to hit the wounded carny and the stealers -this was despite not MoD, no extra attack (didnt go off) from the libby and no rerolls  - really poor idea on my part.  I should have simply charged the carny and then taken the counter - would have completely changed the game. 

He wiped the DC out.

 

In his turn, Stealers then moved forward with Old One Eye, the other Carny, Swarmy and the Malanthrope.

 

Carny made a bee-line for my libby dread who had moved up aggressively.  Stealers charged my libby biker and the carny took out the Dread.  Dready got lucky with all attacks hitting (thanks nearby Astorath) and all wounding- doing 9 damage.  Libby Biker died, and then granted the stealers 3 extra CP - as well as an opportunity to use overrun and then consolidate into a bunch of units. These units fought back a bit whittling the stealers down. 

 

In my second turn, the SG jumped out to engage the 3 monsters at the back.  I had positioned them poorly (bubbles!!! I'm learning that i need to move slightly less aggressively to ensure that I'm always within 6" of a character providing a bonus) and so MoD couldnt be used- i was out by only an inch. 

 

Units fell back, and re-positioned where possible,  taking out the stealer squad and the SG charging and taking out Old One Eye. 

 

In his 2nd, the Tyrants landed.

I took 9 mortal wounds from smite on various units - but thankfully only one of the Tyrants made it into combat.  This meant there'd be a moment of reprieve. 

 

In turn 3,  I shot the one Tyrant down to 2 wounds, and killed the other with my smashy.  

 

My vanguard dropped down to charge the Tyrant that was being shot up - who would have fought alongside astorath -but alas, i forgot to charge them. 

Astorath failed to wound, and got drilled in return - surviving though, until next psychic phase. 

 

Turn 4 his Trygon and Stealers dropped.  

 

Swarmy was also moving up ready to start cleaving. 

In the next 2 turns though, it was a bit of a cat/mouse type thing as his units tried to do as much damage as possible, while clinging on to objectives, and trying to claw back from the early lead I had gained.  

 

The vehicles surviving meant that i shooting options late game, and the Smashy playing support meant that he needed to dedicate his stealers to a flank he didnt want to be in, or risk losing his objective. 

In the end, he had about 8 stealers, the Malenthrope and a wounded Trygon left.  

I had 3 scout squads, about 4 VanVets, the Sicaran and the Contemptor left 

 

 

BA took it 27-20.

Possibly the most tactical game I had played against this opponent in terms of both of our movement, positioning and engagement with each other.