Dracos Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 So what do we think the repuslir ex is going to cost point wise? My arm, your leg and Guilliman's left . I hold out hope ... but it likely is ridiculous and wasteful of 6 transport slots (IMO but I respect any differing opinions). If it's points are proportionally more durable than 2 Xiphons and has the firepower of 8 Lascannons and two missile launchers, then I'll be intrigued. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356483-what%E2%80%99s-missing-from-the-primaris-line/page/10/#findComment-5333314 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 Nobody needs a command squad either, they just need characters. Again reiterating a need to go back to old style character charts in a 'build a character' fashion, you should be able to just make a random elite character and have them fulfill anything from Chapter Ancient to Chapter Ancient. Thus you get a Command "Squad" which is comprised of five characters spread across the board (champion, apothecary, ancient, veteran, veteran). Although hopefully by the next edition the characters get a look at because the current un-targetable nature of them is awful. In case people forgot ... we also don't HAVE a command squad anymore. We have a Company Ancient (single character) which is still fairly useable even if the weakest among the Ancients, the Company Veterans which are neat but a bit redundant with the other Veteran squads (and nobody uses their crappy bodyguard rule) and a Company Champion (single character) nobody really uses anyway because if you need a beatstick model you just go to the HQ section (not Lieutenants though because those are crap). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356483-what%E2%80%99s-missing-from-the-primaris-line/page/10/#findComment-5333355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 So what do we think the repuslir ex is going to cost point wise? My arm, your leg and Guilliman's left . I hold out hope ... but it likely is ridiculous and wasteful of 6 transport slots (IMO but I respect any differing opinions). If it's points are proportionally more durable than 2 Xiphons and has the firepower of 8 Lascannons and two missile launchers, then I'll be intrigued. If the Repulsor Executioner truly gains an ability like the Leman Russ that lets it shoot twice if it moved only half it's range and if the main weapon turns out to be better than 4 Lascannons then the transport capacity will only be an afterthought anyway. Maybe put in some Intercessors for deep strike protection or whatever if you have the luxury of spare points in a Primaris army. It won't get anywhere to deliver cargo with 5" per turn anyway and is only there to shoot things. I still have my doubts about it being better than 4 Lascannons though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356483-what%E2%80%99s-missing-from-the-primaris-line/page/10/#findComment-5333357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Knight Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 If the game swung towards movement and dynamic play rather than sit there and shoot killhammer then perhaps we'd see more Tactical and Intercessor squads inside transports and again the need for a cheaper transport becomes apparent. You need to move to win 40k, if your games are shooting matches you're using the wrong kinds of terrain and playing the wrong missions. That's not quite the context I intended. Games of 40K might have models moving around, but it's extreme firepower that wins games and putting Intercessors into the firing line or Tactical Marines will just result in their swift removal from the table. This isn't necessarily accurate. I've often seen skillful opponents win by dominating objectives and movement without inflicting overwhelming damage. Most recent example was during the warhammer grand tournament matches shown on Warhammer TV. A Tau player was defeated despite the damage he dealt to to an army that didn't have the same offensive punch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356483-what%E2%80%99s-missing-from-the-primaris-line/page/10/#findComment-5333370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 Yeah I was at that tournament and the majority of games were won because they were a turkey shoot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356483-what%E2%80%99s-missing-from-the-primaris-line/page/10/#findComment-5333385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Knight Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 Yes that might well be the case but the majority of games don't illustrate the most technical or highest level of play. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356483-what%E2%80%99s-missing-from-the-primaris-line/page/10/#findComment-5333411 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 It does illustrate the most relevant level of play though. ^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356483-what%E2%80%99s-missing-from-the-primaris-line/page/10/#findComment-5333416 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead01 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 So what do we think the repuslir ex is going to cost point wise? No idea about points. I noticed the main gun stats look like both main weapons have 2 attacks and am wondering if either they will both be d6 shots or a stat change unique to the vehicle with maybe 2D3 shots. (Speculating that the new codex is on the way.) Either way the base 2 attacks for both weapons got the wheels turning. I was really excited for the new tank and now a bit less but that's probably because I am not excited about this version of Apocalypse and that's the only new information about this tank so far. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356483-what%E2%80%99s-missing-from-the-primaris-line/page/10/#findComment-5333463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Knight Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 The only rule snippet that might translate to regular 40k is the rule that where fires twice, as a Leman Russ does, when it moves less than half of it's normal distance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356483-what%E2%80%99s-missing-from-the-primaris-line/page/10/#findComment-5333473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 If it gets 1d6 shots and the rule to shoot twice then that's about 9 damage on average against T7-8 Sv3+ and bout 7 damage on average against T7-8 Sv5++. Not too shabby but obviously depends on the points cost if worth it. Especially because my regular Repulsor isn't just shooting but also serves as an actual transport for my Hellblaster or Intercessors which is something the Executioner can't really do if it gets the shoot twice special rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356483-what%E2%80%99s-missing-from-the-primaris-line/page/10/#findComment-5333495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
THUNDERFISTS Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 The points and power level of the gun are what will really make or break the Executioner. A LR Tank Commander with heavy bolters sits comfortably below 200pts with 2d6 (effectively) S8 -2ap D3 damage and 9 S5 -1ap Heavy bolter shots also with BS3+. It can't transport and doesn't have fly, but I can take three of them instead of two standard Repulsors. The Executioner has got to be on point if it's going to compete with the armored 33 battalion. But who am I kidding, I'll still buy two of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356483-what%E2%80%99s-missing-from-the-primaris-line/page/10/#findComment-5333548 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 The points and power level of the gun are what will really make or break the Executioner. A LR Tank Commander with heavy bolters sits comfortably below 200pts with 2d6 (effectively) S8 -2ap D3 damage and 9 S5 -1ap Heavy bolter shots also with BS3+. It can't transport and doesn't have fly, but I can take three of them instead of two standard Repulsors. The Executioner has got to be on point if it's going to compete with the armored 33 battalion. But who am I kidding, I'll still buy two of them. Luckily it's not just the Heavy Laser Destroyer it has. If it can shoot twice with the loadout we've seen it with also has up to 36 S5 AP-1 D1 shots and I'm not even going to bother with all the Bolters and equivalents lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356483-what%E2%80%99s-missing-from-the-primaris-line/page/10/#findComment-5333560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK0SIAN Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 Ok, well then we run into an issue of balance. In past editions units alternated in close combat depending on initiative. Now all of a charging players units go first, with an exception to special rules and the interrupt stratagem. If you attached your chaplain to your death company then the opponents interrupt becomes a lot less useful. Based on the direction that they are going with the game, it’s not going to happen. But in that case I would say that stratagems shouldn’t be a consideration when you’re talking about core game mechanics. You can’t make a balanced game with good core mechanics if you have to wonder how it will affect certain stratagems. Stratagems are secondary and if one becomes useless because a core mechanic is improved then I’m fine with that, get rid of that Strat or amend it but either way, it doesn’t carry the same weight as balancing the core mechanics. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356483-what%E2%80%99s-missing-from-the-primaris-line/page/10/#findComment-5333589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
autek mor Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 quite a lot of pages to sift through so chances are that my idea has already been suggested by somebody else here before. what the primaris need are a dedicated assault unit with a melee weapon that at the very minimum has at least a -1 rend. of course extra rules, buffed stats and stratagems will greatly be appreciated. they should be mobile or be able to deep strike without having to take 300 point transports to get across the table. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356483-what%E2%80%99s-missing-from-the-primaris-line/page/10/#findComment-5333607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boldthreat Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 So I’m reading Spear Of the Emperor and something stuck out to me. The three Helots were each granted 3 weapons out of the Chapter Armory of the Mentor Legion. One of those weapons Is the Terminus Eye... a one shot eye replacement that is pretty powerful. Doubt that is anything we need to concern with. Another is a 12 inch combat blade that can function as a punch dagger or configured as a short sword. It has some power field technology but is limited. Sounds similar to a Weapon wielded by Rievers. Could be wrong. The last weapon is one that sticks out to me. The Engager Assault Shotgun. Now admittedly its stated as designed and built by the Mentor Legion. Which could shoot my theory wide open and we only ever read about it. But pushing forward, it’s a space marine killer. The further the range, the less effective. But up close it’s devestating. Now these in the story were further modified by the Mentor Legionwith a 3 shot vortex Grenade launcher and weight compensators. This is interesting. First thing is it’s specifically named. Also worth noting is that it has weight compensators, largely unnoteworthy except for the fact that this is not unprecedented with Primaris weaponry and is topped off with a grenade launcher. This could be nothing, but it may also be a hint at the future. If an non augmented human can carry this thing two handed with weight compensators... I would imagine a Primaris battle brother to be able to wield this one handed. And then I started thinking about my Gravis Breacher theory with the Repulsor shield. How cool would it be to have a shield to make your heavy infantry more difficult to charge but also keep you in perfect range for these heavy devestating shotguns. The only thing that detracts from this theory is it being pump action... why oh why? Anyway, probably nothing but man that’s what I would want to board a starship with. A man can dream. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356483-what%E2%80%99s-missing-from-the-primaris-line/page/10/#findComment-5333656 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 Maybe the pump can rest on the shield to load the rounds, so can be used one handed? Maybe it could load 2-3 rounds to fire per pump + fire? I think there are some IRL shotguns that are pump action that can load + fire 2 shells already. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356483-what%E2%80%99s-missing-from-the-primaris-line/page/10/#findComment-5333770 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 They make automatic shotguns in our real world. Would work in 40k too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356483-what%E2%80%99s-missing-from-the-primaris-line/page/10/#findComment-5333791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boldthreat Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 Sorry guys, the outburst against it being pump action was a personal jab more than anything. A case of two passions colliding. But if we’re going with pump action Engagers, I want a heavy absolver in revolver form. It must be named the Regulator. I kid, I kid... wait no I’m not!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356483-what%E2%80%99s-missing-from-the-primaris-line/page/10/#findComment-5333834 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 Rant: ;) I know it's sci-fi and all but this strange obsession I see with "breaching" shields for a squad just rubs me the wrong way. You do realize that an urban combat team using breaching techniques don't really use a shield? One man, a blanket to shield the rest of the team and a well placed explosive. It's entirely unusable as a defensive piece of equipment. Rant complete Thank you :) That said .... one guy with a Repulsor Shield to inhibit charges to a 5 man unit is a great idea I think I saw someone mention before. :D .... and a Repulsor variant without a turret. I've given up on a light fast skimmer like the Whispercutter, but damn how hard would it be to give me a turret-less Repulsor? Knock a few bucks off the regular Repulsor and I'll buy 3 or 4 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356483-what%E2%80%99s-missing-from-the-primaris-line/page/10/#findComment-5333846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boldthreat Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 Rant: ;) I know it's sci-fi and all but this strange obsession I see with "breaching" shields for a squad just rubs me the wrong way. You do realize that an urban combat team using breaching techniques don't really use a shield? One man, a blanket to shield the rest of the team and a well placed explosive. It's entirely unusable as a defensive piece of equipment. Rant complete Thank you :) That said .... one guy with a Repulsor Shield to inhibit charges to a 5 man unit is a great idea I think I saw someone mention before. :D .... and a Repulsor variant without a turret. I've given up on a light fast skimmer like the Whispercutter, but damn how hard would it be to give me a turret-less Repulsor? Knock a few bucks off the regular Repulsor and I'll buy 3 or 4 Lol! Touché brother touché! Thank you for that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356483-what%E2%80%99s-missing-from-the-primaris-line/page/10/#findComment-5333866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Potato Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 Rant: ;) I know it's sci-fi and all but this strange obsession I see with "breaching" shields for a squad just rubs me the wrong way. You do realize that an urban combat team using breaching techniques don't really use a shield? One man, a blanket to shield the rest of the team and a well placed explosive. It's entirely unusable as a defensive piece of equipment. Rant complete Thank you :) Blanket? What’s the blanket for? I can assure you ballistic shields are a thing and do have a use or two in urban combat. Either that or I spent years of my life carrying one for absolutely zero purpose. Breaching just means making entry into a structure. Using explosives, manual tools or simply just opening a door, it makes no difference. There are pros and cons to each method. The shield is not there to protect against the explosion of a breaching charge - it’s there to protect the team moving through whatever hole the team is making entry through. If you’re having to move through a fixed entry point, like an airlock for an assault on a ship, then that’s definitely when I’d be considering the use of a ballistic shield at the front of the breach team. TLDR - breaching shields - a thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356483-what%E2%80%99s-missing-from-the-primaris-line/page/10/#findComment-5333887 Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmapa Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 I've been thinking about special weapons and something I'd like to see is a Phobos unit with meltaguns, their short range would work well with an infiltration unit and Tacticus has Plasma while Gravis has flamers so it would make sense for a Phobos unit to have Melta. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356483-what%E2%80%99s-missing-from-the-primaris-line/page/10/#findComment-5333893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 RE: Breachers being relevant... Yes we because we want them. They look cool and folk can make themed armies based on assault forces right across to sword and board phalanxs. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356483-what%E2%80%99s-missing-from-the-primaris-line/page/10/#findComment-5333948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boldthreat Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 Well to be fair to Dracos regarding breachers, he rightly called me out on my whining of the realism and practicality of pump shotguns, in a science fantasy setting with swords and shields. I was being silly. But back onto the point. Engager shotguns as a Primaris weapon could be likely. I hope so. Regarding Phobos armor and melta guns, I hope so too. Maybe a kit for Infiltrators if/when they get their independent release? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356483-what%E2%80%99s-missing-from-the-primaris-line/page/10/#findComment-5333952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Knight Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 I think that the next wave of Primaris releases will focus on heavy armour infantry. Someone mentioned earlier that the first wave focused on the standard infantry, and the Vanguard release was built around infiltrators or lightly armoured troops. Both releases had a bit of variation that didn't strictly conform but the theme is there. We can guess, based on this, that the next release will have more elite infantry with a focus on heavy firepower or strong close combat. Hopefully the units will gain some fast moving vehicles or units - not necessarily transports but maybe light tank hunters or bikers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356483-what%E2%80%99s-missing-from-the-primaris-line/page/10/#findComment-5333954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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