Hints at additional Primaris releases and future changes

[War Angel]

Fact check me on this, but Primaris have the ability to use what, four relics? And all of the stratagems were designed around the old units. And most of them are designed around our old appoc formations, but in standard games We don’t have the points to take hose things.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

For wolves the only relic weapon that Primaris can take is the axe from our special detachment which is built around reivers and blood claws. I think some of it is that GW has no plans to stop selling classic marines anytime soon.

[Panzer]

Reivers blades could just end up getting the knife fighter rule, and chain sword rule.

 

Add 1 atk with this weapon, on a unmodified roll of a 6, add 1 wound.

 

 

It would make them better at melee

 

That would make them slightly less crappy in melee ... very very slightly. An additional 5 S4 AP0 attacks in a 10 man unit is about as good as getting nothing.

[Orange Knight]

Fact check me on this, but Primaris have the ability to use what, four relics? And all of the stratagems were designed around the old units. And most of them are designed around our old appoc formations, but in standard games We don’t have the points to take hose things.

These are very good points. I can see one of two things happening on the near future.

 

1: Primaris only codex, full of stratagems, Warlord traits, relics and the new units.

 

2: Update of Codex: Adeptus Astartes. Pretty much unchanged for the regular Marines, but has re-worked relics and a few new pages for Primaris stratagems, as well as the extra units.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think there will be an updated codex. There’s no reason to get rid of existing units nor is there anything to support it.

[Bryan Blaire]

I think there will be an updated codex. There’s no reason to get rid of existing units nor is there anything to support it.

There's also no where near enough Primaris units to have their own Codex at this point.

 

Now, maybe when they get all of the other armor types that Jes Goodwin keeps alluding to done, then there may be a new Codex, and maybe at that point we will see split books, but until then, there is really no reason to split anything off or do anything other than just update the current Codex (if they even do that, I'm honestly keeping my expectations in the crapper, that way GW can surprise me).

[Lemondish]

 

I think there will be an updated codex. There’s no reason to get rid of existing units nor is there anything to support it.

There's also no where near enough Primaris units to have their own Codex at this point.

 

Now, maybe when they get all of the other armor types that Jes Goodwin keeps alluding to done, then there may be a new Codex, and maybe at that point we will see split books, but until then, there is really no reason to split anything off or do anything other than just update the current Codex (if they even do that, I'm honestly keeping my expectations in the crapper, that way GW can surprise me).

There certainly are enough for a codex, after all they have more than Harlequins, Custodes, Knights, and the forthcoming Chaos Knights.

[Bryan Blaire]

There certainly are enough for a codex, after all they have more than Harlequins, Custodes, Knights, and the forthcoming Chaos Knights.

Hey, if there's enough for you to pay full price for a crap 'Dex like that, go for it. There wouldn't be enough there for me to bother buying it - it certainly wouldn't be a Space Marine Codex to me with that little content.

 

(You've got to remember, I don't think any of the things you named should be separate Codexes either, and I think it's absolute bull that GW made them and people eat them up.)

[Lemondish]

 

There certainly are enough for a codex, after all they have more than Harlequins, Custodes, Knights, and the forthcoming Chaos Knights.

Hey, if there's enough for you to pay full price for a crap 'Dex like that, go for it. There wouldn't be enough there for me to bother buying it - it certainly wouldn't be a Space Marine Codex to me with that little content.

 

(You've got to remember, I don't think any of the things you named should be separate Codexes either, and I think it's absolute bull that GW made them and people eat them up.)

Fair enough. I feel like a separate codex is inevitable, preferably one that isn't shackled to a bloated corpse filled with units I 100% will never use, strats that don't apply to me, and no relics. What we last got, despite the size, was pretty poor and yet cost more than all the rest.

[War Angel]

An all Primaris codex including new starts and relics, options for full sized eliminators w/ the weapon variant, full sized suppressors (possibly with their own weapon option) the exterminator, and we know they have more stuff planed, so whatever else they would like to add to make the full “vanguard” wave (I remember seeing that we had only seen a portion of the vanguard forces with shadow spear, something tells me that the exterminator doesn’t finish the wave off).

 

Yeah I think Primaris could in theory break off into their own codex. Include mention that they can also have units from the previous codex and their fine.

 

Furthermore, it would give them the ability to focus on Primaris fluff, and then I would know what the hell is going on. Lol

[Orange Knight]

There are over 21 seperate Primaris units, just off the top of my head. We can assume that a new book would also come with an extra unit or two, and an extra chapter specific HQ like that Iron Father that was revealed.

[Panzer]

A whole Codex just for Primaris would definitely be justified when comparing their range to other newer factions, however it would be a significant downgrade from the current Marine Codex obviously.

 

EDIT: fixed a typo

[Lemondish]

I whole Codex just for Primaris would definitely be justified when comparing their range to other newer factions, however it would be a significant downgrade from the current Marine Codex obviously.

For players with non Primaris Astartes armies, absolutely. But I think either pruning the codex or spinning Primaris off is almost necessary. Collapsing some of the data sheets so alternative armour choices are listed in a single sheet, like what was done in Apoc, would be beneficial for consolidation. Perhaps that's actually something we can expect?

[Captain Idaho]

I agree. It's totally necessary to see a consolidation of Primaris releases though folk have pointed out here that I must concede to that perhaps they're not ready (at least competitively speaking).

 

However, I think the lack of background explanation means we just have to have a Codex release. We need to answer so much about Primaris and how Chapters operate etc as right now it looks just tacked on and artificial.

 

Codex Primaris Chapters is pretty much an inevitability but then we have a really interesting question opening up... what are Marines going to do with Classic Marines?

 

GW are kind of in a difficult situation at that point (one they would have created for themselves but that's a different discussion) - if they ignore Classic Marines and let them die they'll alienate a portion of their core market. If they promote new Classic Marines they will potentially suck resources into a direction their business model has not been prepared for, stalling Primaris releases.

 

We know which one GW will choose but I bet my bolter shells that they will put off making it for as long as possible.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I don't think a Primaris Codex is very likely. It would basically be an official were done with classic marines statement. Which isn't the company line of they're reinforcements.

 

IMO the update will either be a codex version 2 or a campaign/supplement.

[TrawlingCleaner]

What's the point in splitting the codexes? You now can't take predators, scouts, terminators,  most variations of dreads unless you ally that just sounds dumb. I really don't understand this thought process. Let's separate the marine codex down to two different codexes (both of which you have to buy if you have models from the new and the old range), for little to no reason. "There's too much codex bloat with units I never take". I've never used Guilliman, get him out of my codex because he's taking up valuable space in my 25 quid book.

 

While I was being rather flippant, there will always be bad units and less efficient units but that really doesn't mean that these should be separated. I like being able to mix and match primaris and non primaris in a detachment, its like the old boys are training the new guys. 

 

Strats definitely need looking at though

[Sete]

We are treading the thin red line now. Touchy subject, so ill be as gentle as possible.

Personally, I think GW will make a huge Primaris release, they are pushing primaris and the new apoc box does not even include marines, just primaris. (correct me if I am wrong, I haven't been following apoc release).

I have bought codex before with very few units ex: militarum tempestus. Primaris at the moment have a somewhat decent range, and rumour is more is to be released. So we could easily get 10+ units, between chapter specific HQ and new fast attack stuff.

Giving AoS as an example a few years down the line there is still a lot of old world stuff on sale, so I don't expect marines to just suddently disappear, and with HH almost done, im sure GW will find a way to keep them going for a while longer. Probably a new setting. They have 10k years to explore still.

[Orange Knight]

It's not an issue of unit balance, but more of an issue of army cohesion.

 

The Primaris have been designed with only limited comparability with the "classic" Astartes. They can't share transports, they don't share the same access wargear or armour. Now, with the most recent Vaguard releases, they don't even share a psychic discipline which is built around boosting a specific set of Primaris units.

 

There are pages of stratagems that are specifically built around the classic units. Very limited or no impact to the Primaris. There are chapter tactics, like the Black Templar for example, that are of very limited benefit to the Primaris because they lack dedicated assault units - although you can still get mileage out of them to an extent.

 

So Primaris have very limited to no access to relics. They have very limited to no access to stratagems. They have limited numbers of unique characters, and already at this point they actually number 25 datasheets or more.

In the currect codex, these 25 datasheets feel like a set of bolted-on units that aren't integrated into the army.

 

I suggested a spit in the codex not because it's ideal, but because a second set of stratagems and rules for 25+ units that only have limited interaction with another set of units makes for a very unwieldy book.

A way around this would be a complete re-write of relics, stratagems, psychic powers, chapter tactics, etc that could re-balance the book entirely so it benefits both sets of Astartes equally. I see this as equally unlikely. If the Primaris cannot be properly supported whilst remaining as a part of the book (This is their issue currently) then a separate book is the most elegant solutions.

Both sets of Astartes can and should receive a new codex if this is the case, or GW can provide us with a substantially changed, streamlined and optimised large codex for both.

[War Angel]

Nothing says they couldn’t be able to take units from the old codex. And if they can’t, so be it. There’s no need to print the pages for a devastator squad in a new codex, nothings changed with them. And if there’s any chance of GW doing anything with old Marines, it’s going to need to be separated from the new line.

 

The 3rd edition codexs had entry’s that said “youcan use this unit found in codex X, but we won’t print it here to save space for other things that arnt verbatim from some where else.

 

As an owner and lover of five predators, and 6 land raiders (not including those still in packages) I would be ok with having to bring a detachment from old codex just to use them, if it means getting all the other stuff that most codexs have.

[redmapa]

Honestly this whole situation is such a cluster:cuss and its only because GW is unable to commit to anything, they want to push a new line but they dont want to support it and the old line becomes more and more obsolete with every new release so you just have two mediocre lines. Then there's the fact that Primaris are so generic at this moment that whatever differences between chapters is minimal and with no special units for them its honestly hard to justify the mess of having several codices for the same army list, this whole situation would be fixed if they rolled every chapter into a single army list like the Forgeworld books, everyone gets updated at the same time and access to the same generic toys and further uniqueness can be given through supplements like in 3rd edition.

 

It wont happen but its a solution, at the end the only thing thats solving these issues is GW's willingness to do so and thats not going to happen.

[Orange Knight]

It's a gradual transition. They can't release 45 new kits simultaneously. It's over saturation of a releases slot and a poor way of getting returns on investment. Could you imagine 3/4 months of nothing but Primaris releases? The community would get sick of it very quickly.

 

That being said, I do agree that it's time for them to make a commitment. This doesn't have to involve the scrapping of the existing line, but perhaps a set of new Primaris books focused on various chapters with a set of new kits to accompany each one. More general and chapter specific releases outlined for the future would be very helpful.

 

If they continue to tiptoe around the issue it leaves the fans and their armies in a state of limbo and uncertainty.

[Lemondish]

What's the point in splitting the codexes? You now can't take predators, scouts, terminators,  most variations of dreads unless you ally that just sounds dumb. I really don't understand this thought process. Let's separate the marine codex down to two different codexes (both of which you have to buy if you have models from the new and the old range), for little to no reason. "There's too much codex bloat with units I never take". I've never used Guilliman, get him out of my codex because he's taking up valuable space in my 25 quid book.

 

While I was being rather flippant, there will always be bad units and less efficient units but that really doesn't mean that these should be separated. I like being able to mix and match primaris and non primaris in a detachment, its like the old boys are training the new guys. 

 

Strats definitely need looking at though

 

I think you misunderstood. The bloat comes from having 85 data sheets and needing to add another 7 more into a book that does not support them. The bloat comes from having 6 (now 7!) separate Captain data sheets as an egregious example, along with a thousand cuts for units like Chapter Ancient and Chapter Champion alongside a Company Ancient and Company Champion. Units like Honour Guard, Company Veterans, and the 3 different Terminator squads contribute to a bloated mess of a Codex. Even things like the Hunter and Stalker being separate data sheets is unnecessary. 

 

And that's just data sheets. The lore in the book tracks 8 different Chapters and 33 different units or characters. 

 

Then add weak Strats, weak Relics, weak Warlord Traits, and a Librarius discipline that is frankly pretty limited in effective choices. Sure, these affect every Marine player, but the book is particularly dismissive of Primaris in each of those categories. A split or pruning is necessary before the next book launches at over 250 pages. 

[Captain Idaho]

Which is why I feel there needs to be a separation between Classic Marines and Primaris. People who want both can and they can even have caveats to operate in the same army.

 

Of course that brings us back to the question whether GW will support Classic Marines (they won't. This isn't a design decision. It's management) and the problems with not supporting them.

 

*sigh* It's a real business problem.

 

****

 

I also want to point out this topic is actually going a long quite nicely and good points are being made by all.

[Lemondish]

Which is why I feel there needs to be a separation between Classic Marines and Primaris. People who want both can and they can even have caveats to operate in the same army.

 

Of course that brings us back to the question whether GW will support Classic Marines (they won't. This isn't a design decision. It's management) and the problems with not supporting them.

 

*sigh* It's a real business problem.

 

****

 

I also want to point out this topic is actually going a long quite nicely and good points are being made by all.

 

I think there's a possibility to kind of do both in some ways. We've seen that GW is still supporting old marines through rules as many of the better, more fleshed out Vigilus detachments were for classic units, but it also comes with the caveat of there being the whole "yes model, yes rules" (as a brighter, cheerier take on the oft repeated concept). It's why we still have rules for Honour Guard, Company Vets, Company Champs, etc. even though the kit they come in doesn't really follow the 8th edition design for how those units are handled. Some of those data sheets can be eliminated altogether, in my eyes, and there would be few tears shed, as long as the models remain accessible. 

 

Rules-wise, I don't think there's much if any sign that they intend to slow down their support for classic marines - it is almost guaranteed that there will be no new units, but that doesn't preclude rules tweaks or additions. As mentioned above, Vigilus is one of them - Bolter Discipline being another. We're all pretty sensitive to this topic no matter if you hope for full on replacement or despise it, but I feel the bright side is that GW has so far deftly walked the line with every new Primaris addition they add to the range. They aren't releasing direct replacements of iconic units (no matter how much I want to see a Primaris Terminator, Sternguard or Vanguard Vet kit), which means there's still a place for them. For now. 

 

Which probably means they will still be supported because quite a few of those are pretty popular kits still. That being said, splitting off Primaris into their own codex doesn't necessarily mean the Astartes need to remain static, but I imagine it would definitely feel that way (and who would blame anybody who took it as such). I think that puts them in a pretty rough spot - do they split off Primaris to give them the lore, stratagem, relic, etc. support they kind of need to grow, do they maintain this course of putting it all in one book, or do they do something altogether crazier?

[Captain Idaho]

I'm up for crazier! I'd go for a full Classic Marines have rebelled against the new regime Codex and they have stuff and new models to reflect that, whilst the Primaris Chapters get all the new tech in this civil war!

 

It would even allow for renegade Ultramarines to fight Imperial Ultramarines and it not be weird.