Hints at additional Primaris releases and future changes

[Guest Triszin]

I expect a space marines 2.0 codex.

 

updated point costs, new units, new rules/statlines for under performing units.

 

free update for digital, or buy a new physical copy.

 

it'll also have a page for non codex chapters specifically for the new/udpated units that basically says darkangels, bloodangels, wolves have access to xyz

[Lemondish]

I'm up for crazier! I'd go for a full Classic Marines have rebelled against the new regime Codex and they have stuff and new models to reflect that, whilst the Primaris Chapters get all the new tech in this civil war!

 

It would even allow for renegade Ultramarines to fight Imperial Ultramarines and it not be weird.

That's personally the crazy I want, but I do know there are a lot of people who don't like major swings in the narrative and I honestly wouldn't want their passion to leave this hobby.

[Captain Idaho]

Oh it's a total pipe dream. GW wouldn't do such a thing. It looked like it might have been set up with Calgar in Dark Imperium, but that was killed by his crossing the Rubicon.

[Closet Skeleton]

I don't see what's wrong with having a codex in two volumes. I prefer slimmer books anyway.

 

Honestly this whole situation is such a cluster:cuss and its only because GW is unable to commit to anything, they want to push a new line but they dont want to support it and the old line becomes more and more obsolete with every new release so you just have two mediocre lines. .

 

They're committed quite heavily to Primaris, if they feel like they're missing something its due to weird priorities not half-heartedness. Partially its just that the easy to build introductory stuff and starter boxes put the amount of primaris units far lower than the amount of primaris kits.

 

There are pages of stratagems that are specifically built around the classic units. Very limited or no impact to the Primaris. There are chapter tactics, like the Black Templar for example, that are of very limited benefit to the Primaris because they lack dedicated assault units - although you can still get mileage out of them to an extent.

 

That's a bad example since its almost useless on regular marines as well, if any chapter tactic is worse on Primaris its the Salamanders one.
 

[Sete]

True, BT CT is lacklustre all around lol.

 

Are we getting any previews this weekend on the warhammer fest?

We might get some previous if so. 

[Orange Knight]

There is no question that the Chapter tactics and stratagems are poor in general, but my main complaints relates to the simple fact that most of them are tied to specific units. In the vast majority of cases those units are not Primaris.

My concern is that a simple update and consolidation of the codex won't be a benefit to the faction in general.

 

Warhammer Fest is a good opportunity to showcase something, yes. We don't have long to wait but I don't want to get too excited!

[The Unseen]

Saying none of the strats in the book help primaris marines is only a partially valid point.

Almost none of the strats IN GENERAL do anything for marines at all.

How many marine strats get used at all?

Hellfire/flak, fight again, wisdom of the ancient, and relics?

 

Marine strats, and a few units too, need a rework from the ground up.

[Lemondish]

Saying none of the strats in the book help primaris marines is only a partially valid point.

Almost none of the strats IN GENERAL do anything for marines at all.

How many marine strats get used at all?

Hellfire/flak, fight again, wisdom of the ancient, and relics?

 

Marine strats, and a few units too, need a rework from the ground up.

I do not disagree that they are weak, but that doesn't change the fact that the

Popular ones aren't available to Primaris. These are the ones I've seen played routinely that don't really do much for Primaris:

 

Killshot

Masterful Marksmanship

Hellfire Shells

Flakk Missile

Tremor Shells (this is such a dark horse strat, I'm honestly surprised at how many people overlook it)

 

You can say they aren't worth it (they are), or that they don't do anything worthwhile (they can), but that's not really the point.

 

Then there are some of the less common ones like Cluster Mines (for those lists that rely heavily on lots and lots of Scout Bikes) and Empyric Channeling (seeing this one less and less as the supreme command of triple Librarians from different Chapters takes over). Both are fun even if very situational and not particularly effective. Still can't use them. Some of the chapter specific ones can't be used by Primaris units either.

 

The strats are certainly weak across the board, but they're still there as an option for old marine armies with little support for Primaris. Stratagem, relic, and warlord trait support is what makes IK a scary force. Without those you get today's Renegade Knights - powerful, but hardly at the same level.

 

So the criticism and expectation is twofold - better strats and more broad application so they can apply to more than just classic Marine units.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don’t understand why some seem so obsessed to play a pure Primaris army. There’s plenty of synergy.

[Blindhamster]

I don’t understand why some seem so obsessed to play a pure Primaris army. There’s plenty of synergy.

Mostly comes down to model preferences I think. That's certainly the reason for me.

[Panzer]

Mine as well.

I also like their statline on the table but that's a more minor reason.

[Captain Idaho]

Maybe that's just it. Maybe GW never anticipated that most players would be into pure Primaris or pure Classic Marines for the most part?

[Boldthreat]

I have to concur with the above. I have successfully gotten all 5 of my kids interested in 40k and they won’t even look at the older stuff. It’s a visual thing. I have no interest currently to invest in anything prior to Dark Imperium model wise.

 

I’d kill for updated traditional space marine models. But I’d admittedly rather we just get more Primaris stuff at this point.

[Rik Lightstar]

Yeah, totally an aesthetic choice for me too.

 

I have probably around 4k of Classic Marines for my Astral Claws but my Mantis Warriors are exclusively Primaris.

 

Rik

[Subtleknife]

Both an aesthetic and stat choice for me. Old marines look odd to me next to the new ones. And the stats makes them feel a bit more special like I always believed marines should.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Maybe that's just it. Maybe GW never anticipated that most players would be into pure Primaris or pure Classic Marines for the most part?

I think there is alot of truth to this. They've put alot of effort into making the lines compliment each other rather than making primaris upgrades over existing units.

 

They also put an emphasis on how the two types of marines would interact but never really followed through. I wonder if they had if mixing armies would be more popular.

[redmapa]

I sincerely doubt that GW envisioned marine armies as mixed, one because otherwise the current units wouldn't be just better versions of old marine units (Intercessors are definitely a better version of Tacticals, Reivers for all their problems are better Assault Squads, Hellblasters are expensive but bring plenty more firepower than Devastators by virtue of having more special weapons per squad) and the fact that Jes Goodwin himself has said they have a lot of units already made and even more that are designed. 

[Captain Idaho]

Assault and Tactical Marines are being outshone by Reivers and Intercessors for sure, though Reivers aren't really a direct comparison with Assault Marines since one is Elite Infiltrator and the other a fast moving skirmish force.

 

But Devastators are definitely worth it on the table. Heavy weapons are still amazing in 40K and the range and hitting power of even Missile Launchers is a powerful asset. They're different beasts.

 

In fact, I'd compare Hellblasters to Sternguard and Company Veterans really. In cost and load out for the most part.

[Ishagu]

Word on the street is that the Astartes book will be released in the second part of September. If that's the case it means we still have some time to wait, but also that we might be seeing some more significant changes.

[Captain Idaho]

I so hope I'm wrong. There NEEDS to be substantial changes.

 

Primaris alone could do with some teeth. Strategums and some rules tweaks would rock them.

 

(Codex Marines with Chaplains and prayers would get a Chaplain into my list instantly without changes elsewhere)

[Lemondish]

I so hope I'm wrong. There NEEDS to be substantial changes.

 

Primaris alone could do with some teeth. Strategums and some rules tweaks would rock them.

 

(Codex Marines with Chaplains and prayers would get a Chaplain into my list instantly without changes elsewhere)

I dunno if substantial is really necessary - look at how a single new unit and a new set of chapter "tactics" turned Chaos into the new meta monster. As fans I think we are really poor at judging the value of minor changes.

 

Even Tau have an a resurgence in multiple ways as folks come to grips with the shift away from Castellans. Substantial may be as likely to miss the mark as help.

[Silas7]

It's not an issue of unit balance, but more of an issue of army cohesion.

 

The Primaris have been designed with only limited comparability with the "classic" Astartes. They can't share transports, they don't share the same access wargear or armour. Now, with the most recent Vaguard releases, they don't even share a psychic discipline which is built around boosting a specific set of Primaris units.

 

There are pages of stratagems that are specifically built around the classic units. Very limited or no impact to the Primaris. There are chapter tactics, like the Black Templar for example, that are of very limited benefit to the Primaris because they lack dedicated assault units - although you can still get mileage out of them to an extent.

 

So Primaris have very limited to no access to relics. They have very limited to no access to stratagems. They have limited numbers of unique characters, and already at this point they actually number 25 datasheets or more.

In the currect codex, these 25 datasheets feel like a set of bolted-on units that aren't integrated into the army.

 

I suggested a spit in the codex not because it's ideal, but because a second set of stratagems and rules for 25+ units that only have limited interaction with another set of units makes for a very unwieldy book.

A way around this would be a complete re-write of relics, stratagems, psychic powers, chapter tactics, etc that could re-balance the book entirely so it benefits both sets of Astartes equally. I see this as equally unlikely. If the Primaris cannot be properly supported whilst remaining as a part of the book (This is their issue currently) then a separate book is the most elegant solutions.

Both sets of Astartes can and should receive a new codex if this is the case, or GW can provide us with a substantially changed, streamlined and optimised large codex for both.

 

Well said

 

( o_o)b

[Dracos]

Maybe that's just it. Maybe GW never anticipated that most players would be into pure Primaris or pure Classic Marines for the most part?

 

You would think so, but then what was the deal with the seemingly non-sensical segregated transport rules? I still find it inexplicable there has been a better narrative reason given for this.

[Guest Triszin]

Word on the street is that the Astartes book will be released in the second part of September. If that's the case it means we still have some time to wait, but also that we might be seeing some more significant changes.

I think thats too late, I could see end of July/first weeks of august.

 

I think we are in a weird period with marines where we are slowly transitioning into a "elite" medium model count.

 

so what do we have so far for Marine 2.0 codex?

- infiltrators (alt loadout?)

- suppressors (alt load out*?)

- eliminators (alt loadout is las fussils, anti vehicle/anti heavy troops)

- repulsor executioner

- **another marine vehicle (rumored engine pics of an updated interior rhino computer)

- primaris techmarine

- updated loadouts for captains/sergeants

- phobos captains/lieutenants/wizards

 

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am I missing anything?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Thera are also various extra options on the units, which have been made legal post-codex:

-Powerfists on intercessors is outside of the codex at the moment

- As Ishagu pointed out to me earlier, the extra options on the non-Gravis captain for plasma pistol and powerfist.