Silver Templar Chapter Organisation

[FelipeFlops]

So thanks to the supplement that came with the Conquest magazines we now have an idea of the organisation of a solely Primaris Codex compliant chapter of the Silver Templars. 

 

Still a Scout company.

 

By the definitions given in the book;

 

Battleline = Intercessors

 

Close Support = Reivers (and Vanguard?) + Inceptors

 

Fire Support = Aggressors + Hellblasters

 

 

[Claws and Effect]

The Vanguard units vary in their role.

 

Infiltrators would be battleline, Reivers are close support, and Eliminators and Suppressors are both fire support.

[Panzer]

So everything as expected since we already got told how they are organized in mixed chapters and there's no reason why they should change things if they follow the Codex Astartes.

[Marshal Reinhard]

A bit disappointing TBQH about the structure. Feels a bit like the same old 10 company structure copy pasted.

 

Don't get me wrong, scouts makes sense, and proves that the recruitment process for new Primarines is the same as it always been. Veterans though? There are none besides the Intercessor veteran stratagem? And how does the vanguard fit in? I mean sure, those units got the same battlefield roles, so conceivably a battleline company could be all infiltrators instead or whatever.

 

I just can't shake the feeling that this book would have more interesting things to put into it, if we'd gotten a couple more waves of Primaris releases.

[Panzer]

A bit disappointing TBQH about the structure. Feels a bit like the same old 10 company structure copy pasted.

 

Don't get me wrong, scouts makes sense, and proves that the recruitment process for new Primarines is the same as it always been. Veterans though? There are none besides the Intercessor veteran stratagem? And how does the vanguard fit in? I mean sure, those units got the same battlefield roles, so conceivably a battleline company could be all infiltrators instead or whatever.

 

I just can't shake the feeling that this book would have more interesting things to put into it, if we'd gotten a couple more waves of Primaris releases.

 

Of course there's a Veteran company and you can bet there will be more Veteran units released eventually. Not sure why that's an issue.

 

We already got told how Vanguards fit in. Each Primaris Marine in a Battle company has a specific role. Battleline, Close support or Fire support. Within these roles they have different equipment they can use.

So Fire support Marine Bob can be a Hellblaster, an Aggressor, an Eliminator or a Suppressor based on what the Captain deems necessary for the mission. Only the 10th has an amount of Vanguard Marines who are just that.

[FelipeFlops]

To be fair, after reading through the book it does seem like it was written well before the release of the Vanguard units.

 

Has given me some relevant heraldry to put on my marines now though which is good. Think I'll go 3rd Company, most of the lore in the book seems to revolve around them.

[Marshal Reinhard]

To be fair, after reading through the book it does seem like it was written well before the release of the Vanguard units.

 

Has given me some relevant heraldry to put on my marines now though which is good. Think I'll go 3rd Company, most of the lore in the book seems to revolve around them.

Which is my point, it'd probably been a lot more interesting if ti'd been written after we gotten all those and some future updates.

[Marshal Rohr]

Pretty disappointed :(

[Boldthreat]

This is stupid. I cannot take this seriously at all. As someone who loves Primaris... I am flat out beside myself on how poorly thought out they have done the whole thing.

 

There is not wanting to paint yourself into a corner as far as future releases and then their is being flippant and making it up as you go. Regardless of what they are actually doing, they are portraying the latter.

[redmapa]

If Scouts are still a thing then what exactly is the point of the Infiltrators if they are essentially doing the same job but are better equipped? Or the other way, Scouts AND Vanguard seem to be completely redundant even without considering the crunch of things, like a commander has a recon unit and then another recon unit but better equipped for the job as well as the unit being able to act as a frontline unit as well, why would scouts be deployed at all? I honestly dont get it but maybe its just me being slow.

[Boldthreat]

If Scouts are still a thing then what exactly is the point of the Infiltrators if they are essentially doing the same job but are better equipped? Or the other way, Scouts AND Vanguard seem to be completely redundant even without considering the crunch of things, like a commander has a recon unit and then another recon unit but better equipped for the job as well as the unit being able to act as a frontline unit as well, why would scouts be deployed at all? I honestly dont get it but maybe its just me being slow.

You got it! This is poorly thought out. Its not reasoned at all.

[Beta galactosidase]

No it’s fine. Vanguard are used in company strength to do primary objectives, and scouts are skirmishers who have ancillary or supporting jobs. It’s fine.

 

 

I’d like a better look at the armory though, can anyone read what it says?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Didn't the Vanguard book confirm that the 10th Company is just permanently Vanguard-outfitted, rather than also using Tacticus/Gravis armour?

[librisrouge]

“In accordance with those recent amendments to the Codex Astartes, the 10th Company of each Chapter should maintain a permanent compliment of one hundred Vanguard Space Marines under the command of a Captain...”

Pg. 5, Vanguard Marine mini-dex

 

Yep. Primaris chapter scout companies are vanguard marines.

[Lord_Caerolion]

It could then be an easy explanation that Scouts come under Vanguard organization. Oldmarine Chapter has 100 Vanguard Marines, they're just Scouts. Primaris Chapter has 100 Vanguard, they're just Infiltrators/Suppressors/Reivers.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Another victim of the book being made too early then, as the chapter structure clearly states the 10th company as having "Scout squads". And yes, I get it, book was written before Shadowspear, that's my whole point, its already a bit out of date before its even out.

 

I personally don't see any problem whatsoever with there being vanguard and scouts in a chapter though, or did people just forget that scouts primary purpose is training them to become full marines?

 

No it’s fine. Vanguard are used in company strength to do primary objectives, and scouts are skirmishers who have ancillary or supporting jobs. It’s fine.


I’d like a better look at the armory though, can anyone read what it says?

 

"Master Weaponsmiths", some name I can't make out, "Techmarines, Servitors, Battle Tanks, Land Raiders, Gunships"

 

Nothing really interesting either. Again already feels dated.

[Boldthreat]

No guys it’s not fine. Scouts used to make sense. They filled a niche that was not available to their brethren. Primaris do not have that void. It is filled by the Vanguard. Scouts are out of a job in Primaris chapters. Even having neophyte squads would be rather dubious to me... with infiltrators, Eliminators and reivers I just don’t see what we could do with them that would justify their being there.

 

Primaris have scouts, they are the vanguard.

[Marshal Rohr]

Scouts are primaris and oldmarines in training, while on the table the role is better filled with Vanguard, in the lore scouts are still just marines who cant wear power armor yet. 

[Captain Idaho]

Wait, Land Raiders?

 

Yeah this is a stop gap. "Battle tanks" in the Armoury instead of listing the type.

 

This doesn't take away the need for a more detailed book.

 

Problem is, GW doesn't really know what it's doing with Primaris except going with the flow - Vanguard were an exercise in shoehorning in units no one really asked for or needed to fit a concept based on fads rather than long term planning of a line. (It all feels like it's appealing to the Fortnite market)

[Marshal Reinhard]

No guys it’s not fine. Scouts used to make sense. They filled a niche that was not available to their brethren. Primaris do not have that void. It is filled by the Vanguard. Scouts are out of a job in Primaris chapters. Even having neophyte squads would be rather dubious to me... with infiltrators, Eliminators and reivers I just don’t see what we could do with them that would justify their being there.

 

Primaris have scouts, they are the vanguard.

 

Scouts primary job was always training themselves. In actual combat scenarios. Doing scouty things. The legions had power armoured marines doing scouty things, Vanguard are new power armored marines doing scouty things.

 

Scouts primary job is still to train themselves, that there are fully trained marines in power armor doing scouty jobs better than them doesn't detract from that. This is not nearly as big a problem as you make it out to be.

[Boldthreat]

But there are no old marines in the Silver Templars. Not in the Sons of the Phoenix, in the Fulminators, Rift Stalkers and ect.

 

At this point, Primaris equivalent Crusader squads make more sense then a neophyte scout squad. My argument against this setup isn’t that there aren’t neophytes. Sure there are. My argument is there place in the Chapter structure... especially with the revelation of the Vanguard.

 

If the Battle Companies can equip Vanguard, and the 10th Company has a full Vanguard complement... then there is no need whatsoever for another asset that is less trained and equipped for the same role. But this is only a minor point. My frustration with this is it seems poorly thought out. It very much seems like a 5 minute job in filling the existing chapter organization with what has been released so far. Guys don’t accept this. Somewhere a complete picture exists and we aren’t getting it only to facilitate this slow rollout. I don’t want a half realized product. And that’s what we are getting right now. This slow pull of the bandaid is getting old. Rip it off and embrace the Space Marine revamp GW. Don’t completely redo everything then for some reason stick with as much of the old stuff as possible.

 

We have a vast proliferation of 3-6 man squads. How does this affect organization? With the Vanguard being a thing, what does that do to the neophytes? We know the Gunship is called the Overlord. We know the battle tanks are Repulsors and Executioners. I want to see something new when it comes to organization. That facilitates the redesign that was forced on us.

 

Dark Imperium showed us an all Inceptor company. Granted it was in the unnumbered sons. But does a Primaris Chapter have this? Do they have ships like the Rudence? Are there new Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges too? How does the Mark X armor change the company structure. None of this requires showing their hand on new units.

 

Crap in 5 minutes they could do this...

 

1st Company - Veteran Company.

2nd Company - Battle Company.

3rd Company - Battle Company.

4th Company - Battle Company.

5th Company - Battle Company.

6th Company - Reserve Tacticus Company

7th Company - Reserve Tacticus Company

8th Company - Reserve Omnis Company

9th Company - Reserve Gravis Company

10th Company - Reserve Phobos Company “Vanguard”

 

And then further explain: “when a neophyte has completed his training and transformation he is sent to the 10th Company where he is trained in Phobos armor. As he progresses and the company replaces losses he moves through the reserve companies getting the necessary training and experience on each type of armor. By the time he is in the 6th and 7th Companies he is fully trained on all the gear and roles used by the Chapter. When he transitions to one of the Battle Companies, he is mission configurable and can switch out gear as needed for the company”. Now it makes sense to pull assets from each reserve company as needed.

 

This also allows you as a player to collect and field an all Gravis, Phobos, Tacticus army and actually paint them in the reserve company colors. And field them without a special caveat. Now the all Gravis company would be a cool assault company. I’d give them a unique name and history. That opens up cool possibilities.

 

Maybe the First Company is only veteran Battle Company units, maybe there is more. I don’t care. But think about how the revamp of the space marines could change that old structure. I think every company should be made up of 20, 5 man squads.

 

I’m just upset, I feel we are getting incomplete information to facilitate this slow rollout of the Primaris. I want well thought out information. If I wanted regurgitated stuff then why go the Primaris route in the first place?

[Gederas]

Wait, Land Raiders?

 

Yeah this is a stop gap. "Battle tanks" in the Armoury instead of listing the type.

 

This doesn't take away the need for a more detailed book.

 

Problem is, GW doesn't really know what it's doing with Primaris except going with the flow - Vanguard were an exercise in shoehorning in units no one really asked for or needed to fit a concept based on fads rather than long term planning of a line. (It all feels like it's appealing to the Fortnite market)

I mean, iirc, the Dark Imperium novel has Primaris riding around in Land Raiders or Rhinos (can't remember which). So..... There's precedent in the fluff

[Charlo]

I wouldn't be surprised if LR opened up to Primaris in the next codex, after the backlash.

[Boldthreat]

 

 

No guys it’s not fine. Scouts used to make sense. They filled a niche that was not available to their brethren. Primaris do not have that void. It is filled by the Vanguard. Scouts are out of a job in Primaris chapters. Even having neophyte squads would be rather dubious to me... with infiltrators, Eliminators and reivers I just don’t see what we could do with them that would justify their being there.

 

Primaris have scouts, they are the vanguard.

Scouts primary job was always training themselves. In actual combat scenarios. Doing scouty things. The legions had power armoured marines doing scouty things, Vanguard are new power armored marines doing scouty things.

 

Scouts primary job is still to train themselves, that there are fully trained marines in power armor doing scouty jobs better than them doesn't detract from that. This is not nearly as big a problem as you make it out to be.

No, I respectfully disagree. Scouts were scouts. They facilitated a role that the rest of the Chapter didn’t do. They didn’t have scout power armor, so the neophytes that didn’t have that implant yet could provide in that capacity. That makes sense. That is reasonable.

 

Primaris don’t have that problem. They do have scout power armor. So we have two options now... neophytes stay home and train or they do something else for the Chapter.

 

We don’t need a weaker bolt gun guy. So remove him from the combat organization.

 

This is a big deal. Not because I hate neophytes and their place in a Chapter. Not at all. It’s a big deal because this is obvious. And because of that it screams that this organization was poorly thought. Primaris have had enough poorly thought out concepts. Let’s bring it all together and give something that is reasoned.

[Sete]

@Charlo, Don't think so. Primaris are definitely going for the new "anti grav" theme.

I would not mind, but don't expect it.

 

About the Chapter organization, im not surprised this book had a placeholder in place. If anything, it will be expanded on a codex.