Silver Templar Chapter Organisation

[Boldthreat]

I’m sorry Reinhard, I still must challenge you here. Surely, you can see the contradictions in your various quotes!

 

On one hand, you are saying that the moment a recruit joins the chapter he is entered into the 10th Company and begins training under a Scout Sgt.

 

You then state, that once in the scouts, the recruit spends many grueling months learning his new genetic enhancements and gear.

 

Do you see it? There is a contradiction here. A 10 year old boy doesn’t show up and become a space marine in less than a year. It takes years of surgery and training and testing before he even makes it to the scouts! Heck there is an implamentation chart that shows you the ages of the various rituals and implamentation. This backs up everything we have read in the novels for this process. In this light that quote is flippant. There is a greater process here. It takes years of hypnoindoctination and training before the 10th Company. The Scouts are marines at the end of that process.

 

I’m not saying that there is no training in the 10th Company. I’m saying a Neophyte in the 10th Company is trained however. Scout missions aren’t training missions. They are strategic tasks carried out by super human warriors to facilitate and assist the main chapter in its tasks. No one else in a traditional Chapter does what they do. It’s needed, it’s important. It’s also a glorified Trial of Position sure, just like in Black Templar crusader squads. But they are not untrained. They know how to use their implants, they know how to use their weapons. They are trained before going into battle. To believe otherwise, even using valid documentation to prove it, is disregarding other lore. Lore that I think makes much more sense.

 

Furthermore, look up the daily regime of the space marines. I know you have read it. Notice something? It’s incessant training... for everyone. It’s training on a level we cannot do as normal human beings. Training never stops for a space marine. Never. Also, I would argue that the training a neophyte goes through is a nightmare of training regimen... it probably weeds out the weak that the implants don’t. It’s probably just as religious and incessant as their older brothers. That’s how the novels portray it any way. Staying home and training isn’t a cake walk. It’s every bit a trial by fire in its own right. It’s brutal and there is no leave.

 

Lastly. The Scouts serve an important function. A function that the rest of the traditional space marine chapter do not do. In a Primaris Chapter, this task is completed by full brothers in power armor. The 10th Company has 100 full space marines now. They even have Chapter heraldry now. That’s new. There is no need for scouts. Neophytes still exist sure, but they don’t have a place in the 10th Company. There inclusion here is an oversight. I’d change my stance completely if Vanguard could take Primaris Neophytes in their squads. That would shut me up. But they don’t. I’d further argue that a Primaris Neophyte would be bigger, faster and stronger than a traditional one. I don’t think we are getting that anytime soon. We have infiltrating units and sniper units now... they are the Vanguard. The inclusion of the scouts in this organization is a holdover from a previous document this one obviously aped. That’s bad. Additionally why call them scouts now? Vanguards are the scouts. Why not change them to Primaris Neophytes? It’s thought out, reasoned stuff I want. Not something that was regurgitated quickly just to get it out the door. Everything has changed because these reforms. I want to see it carried through the rest of the background.

 

We’re not going to get this until we get a stand alone Primaris codex that is designed from the ground up for the Primaris themselves. I fear we will never get that. Not if this kind of stuff is anything to go by. I want Primaris Neophytes to make sense in the 10th Company. But it cannot be as just cheaper sniper rifles and bolt guns. No tell me why they are needed and what they bring to the table. Other wise relegate them to background only and let’s focus on the Chapter structure we can build moving forward.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I’m sorry Reinhard, I still must challenge you here. Surely, you can see the contradictions in your various quotes!

 

On one hand, you are saying that the moment a recruit joins the chapter he is entered into the 10th Company and begins training under a Scout Sgt.

 

You then state, that once in the scouts, the recruit spends many grueling months learning his new genetic enhancements and gear.

 

Do you see it? There is a contradiction here. 

 

I apologize profusely for taking your lengthy reply, quoting only the three first lines and the next sentence, and using that alone in making a rebuttal.

 

But there is no contradiction.

 

The moment a potential recruit begins training is not when he joins the Chapter. When he begins his training is when he's cleared the chapter in question's selection ritual and is taken on as prospective aspirant. He will now begin the the process of being transformed into a superhuman being. But he has not joined the chapter. He is nowhere near ready or worthy yet. The process may even still yet fail, he might end up as nothing but a chapter serf, or even worse, a vegetable only good to be turned into a servitor.

 

But, when he joins the chapter he has gone through most of this process. He has already gone through a lot of the training, the psycho therapy, the indoctrination and more than a dozen stages of organ implantation. When he joins the chapter's 10th company, he's already superhuman elite warrior by mortal human standards, but he's still not yet worthy of being an Astartes. He spends the his time in the scout company further honing his skills, and being taught what being an Astartes means by his Sergeant. This is what is said in the text. 

 

I'm sorry, but there is no contradiction.

 

I'm not saying they're untrained. But they're also not fully trained. It's not mortal elite forces standards they have to meet, it's Astartes ones.

 

Astartes are forged on the field of battle, not in a training hall. Everything up to that point was the preparation of the steel that will be used for the blade and everything after that is to ensure that the blade never dulls.

Edited June 28, 2019 by Reinhard

[Boldthreat]

No apology needed brother!

 

Now I feel we are saying the same thing and it’s coming down to semantics.

 

The Black Templar’s have a similar thing. Just implemented differently. Notice they do not call them scouts. They are Neophytes in a Crusader squad.

 

Regardless of Chapter, Neophytes/Scouts are warriors who are at the end of their transformation process. They are trained and honed super human killers at this point. Further training is moot, as we know the Space Marines never stop training. It’s a trial by fire more than anything.

 

More importantly it’s a trial by fire that takes place whilst accomplishing a task that is needed for and unprovided by the rest of the Chapter. Primaris don’t have that need. It’s provided for by the Vanguard. So why are Scouts still Scouts, and why are they in the 10th Company of a Primaris only Chapter?

 

My argument is that the Neophytes no longer belong there. If they are, and it’s reasoned they are, then we need to know why. Like I said, give me a Primaris scout model that can attach itself to vanguard units. I’ll shut up. But I don’t think we will ever get that. There is no need for it on the table top. So write a paragraph explaining why Neophytes are no longer considered a battlefield asset, they are in the books and lore next to helots, serfs and most servitors. Not the TOE of Chapter organization.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Further training is moot, as we know the Space Marines never stop training.

 

Honing in on the point where my agreeing with your post ceases, stops me at this sentence right here. I argue that further training is NOT moot at this point, it's taking them to the next level, a level that cannot be taught in a hall, or firing drills, or even vicious full contact hand to hand sparring. A level that cannot even be grasped, let alone utilized, by mere mortals in mortal frames no matter how many fire drills they do. This is a step that's taken on the field of battle, that can only be grasped by someone possessing the gifts that being an Astartes comes with.

 

I'm actually quite surprised that you seem to have missed the whole point that the "Scouting Period" is an essential part in forming of a Space marine. The sentiment is everywhere, from the codices, to books, to articles in WD and chapter approved, to even Cyrus' dialogue in DoW 2 (the scout sergeant), to name a few examples.

 

Instead, you seem to think that this is almost only a matter of formality to the scout, a trial of fire as you put it, (and then of some practical importance to the Chaper). I disagree on the first point, and I would posit that it is in fact more than a formality, a neccessary next step, and this is a viewpoint I think is reinforced from more or less everywhere.

 

Also, I only lightly touched upon it earlier, but the fact that vanguard exist does not make the existence of scouts pointless. Do you really think a Chapter cannot utilize another 100 recon specialists, because they already have 100 of even more trained recon specialists? Do you think they could not in fact, utilizie a 1000 more recon specialists, had they actually acess to them? Yes, there is overlap in their roles, but what of it? I find the whole "No sorry, slot filled"-argument pretty lacklustre. The analogy to the Black Templars would be saying "Because battleline units exist, the Templars do not have need of Neophytes."

 

I appreciate that in codex chapters, prior to Vanguard coming into the picture, noone else did the battle role of infiltrators (the rule that is, not the unit) (well for the most part anyway, there's been some exceptions over the decades) and that might let you ascribe special meaning to it being "just them" who were doing it, but I just don't feel that's argument that gets much of anywhere.

 

I think I've more or less exhausted what I want to say on this, and have probably gone full circle with my argumentation more than once now.

Edited June 28, 2019 by Reinhard

[Boldthreat]

I’m sorry I still don’t agree with you. But it’s a minor disagreement.

 

You want to belittle and ignore the kinds of training we read on Astartes. Live fire drills. Life and death exercises and truly brutal training. All of this whilst they attempt to survive the organ implantations and use them to get to the next level of training/implantation. This is before the neophyte makes it to the scout company. All the while he is being hyptnoindoctrinated into the strategy, tactics, Chapter cult and all of it.

 

The Scout Company is important, and it’s a rite of passage for sure. But let’s be real. These kids were killing people at 10. They know how to swing blades and pull triggers. Combat in 40k is not unique, nor is it magical. By the time this recruit makes it to the Scouts he is already a super human warrior. He knows how to wear carapace armor. He knows how to use a chain sword. He knows how to shoot a bolt pistol. I would argue he already has strategems memorized and is a zealot of the Chapter cult. He has also been mind fed how to utilize his organs. No this is a glorified rite of passage, a religious ceremony and traditional dogma.

 

And you are right. I think it is almost a formality. It’s an area where the recruit can earn his power armor, and whilst his organs are maturing and he is awaiting that process, he can still provide a combat asset that the Chapter needs... considering that this need doesn’t require power armor. Training still takes place, he’s being guided and reinforced by an experienced battle brother for sure. But at this point bar a screw up like the scout on The Rynns World novel or enemy action... he will be a Space Marine. Period.

 

The black Templar’s do it different, so do the Space Wolves. But the end result is similar. Notice hey don’t call their neophytes scouts. The scouts are scouts for a reason. But Primaris don’t have that need now. And I get what you are saying about not throwing away weaker scouts when they could supplement your dedicated scouts. But I could say that about any role. Why not have neophytes with bolt rifles supplementing intercessors? Or swinging chainswords and grav chutes with reivers? You could. But it’s redundant. It’s not worth a new model line. And personally, I don’t want my Chapter organization filled with stuff I’ll only ever be able to imagine. So why leave it there? Especially in the 10th Company that is already full of 100 space marines? It made sense before, because Scouts were a thing, they aren’t now. That’s Vamguard. It’s not forward thinking. It’s a hold over from the past. I don’t want hold overs.

 

And I realize I’m going in circles as well. Forgive me. I think this is fun. I like arguing with well thought out and reasoned opposition. So thank you for it. My goal isn’t to exhaust this discussion, but to work through it. May never happen, but at the least we can both walk away further strengthened in our opinions. I’ve changed my mind here before on this forum... and Dorn knows I’m wrong my share of the time. I’ll respectfully bow out on the scout discussion with you, but know my frustration with this whole situation is that it can be done better. It can be better defined, and he table top and the lore can line up. GW is being lazy with this snapshot, they have more info. They have the people that think like you and me on this. It can be brought together better.

[librisrouge]

I know it’s a bit too damned off topic but you guys are far too polite. Where’s the bitterness? Where’s the salt?

 

Ugh, Ultramarines.

[Marshal Reinhard]

No this is a glorified rite of passage, a religious ceremony and traditional dogma.

 

Except its described over and over as not being just that, it's described as training. I'll grant you, if you want to have headcanon that this is an unneccessary formality, go for it, but the sources say otherwhise. And I grant you, there may be lore out there that describes something different. With a setting that has such widespread lore with so many official sources, there's no escaping that some may contradict each other. Common practise is usually to go with the latest source, or multiple sources going against the one source. That I would posit is the source you have. While I have the many many, behind me. Am I wrong?

 

I feel you're arguing for how you want things to be, rather than how they're described as. Which is fine, your head, your headcanon. But it won't translate for 1:1 in contact with others, when the sources say otherwise. There's only so much I can do when I quote official sources who most would consider gospel on the subject, and you call it flippant or contradictory.

Yes not everything in this setting is always the most logical, offten it's not, but you'll be hard pressed to convince most people to just ignore it because of that.

 

I do like challanging conceptions. Dig deep into a question, gather and lay out the evidence and get a clear picture of what's what, and then either busting or reinforcing that conception.

And I feel I've done that in this case, overwhelmingly. Mostly you've offered opinions back, which I grant you, well thought out opinions, don't think I'm belittling them. But they run contrary to the evidence.

[Boldthreat]

Fair enough.

[Marshal Reinhard]

At least we both agree, we really wanted more out of this book.

 

I know it’s a bit too damned off topic but you guys are far too polite. Where’s the bitterness? Where’s the salt?

Ugh, Ultramarines.

 

Son of Dorn here actually, and if the profile picture of my counterpart is to be trusted, so is he.

 

Was lured into this thread when it was initially posted out in the Adeptus Astartes forum before being moved

Edited June 28, 2019 by Reinhard

[Boldthreat]

True that Brother. Well met and discussed.

 

And yes for the most part lol. I have a small Eagle Warriors army, a Crimson fist force and I’m currently building out my DIY Fist successor. In my head there are only two gene lines worth considering.. everything else is aberrant. ;)

[librisrouge]

 

 

I know it’s a bit too damned off topic but you guys are far too polite. Where’s the bitterness? Where’s the salt?

 

Ugh, Ultramarines.

Son of Dorn here actually, and if the profile picture of my counterpart is to be trusted so is he.

Ugh, Sons of Dorn.

[Captain Idaho]

Was lured into this thread when it was initially posted out in the Adeptus Astartes forum before being moved :P

All part of the diabolical plan!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

How did this sad puppy end up here of all the gin joints in this world ?

[Captain Idaho]

Good question; I didn't actually move it.