Silver Templar Chapter Organisation

[Panzer]

But there are no old marines in the Silver Templars. Not in the Sons of the Phoenix, in the Fulminators, Rift Stalkers and ect.

 

At this point, Primaris equivalent Crusader squads make more sense then a neophyte scout squad. My argument against this setup isn’t that there aren’t neophytes. Sure there are. My argument is there place in the Chapter structure... especially with the revelation of the Vanguard.

 

If the Battle Companies can equip Vanguard, and the 10th Company has a full Vanguard complement... then there is no need whatsoever for another asset that is less trained and equipped for the same role. But this is only a minor point. My frustration with this is it seems poorly thought out. It very much seems like a 5 minute job in filling the existing chapter organization with what has been released so far. Guys don’t accept this. Somewhere a complete picture exists and we aren’t getting it only to facilitate this slow rollout. I don’t want a half realized product. And that’s what we are getting right now. This slow pull of the bandaid is getting old. Rip it off and embrace the Space Marine revamp GW. Don’t completely redo everything then for some reason stick with as much of the old stuff as possible.

 

We have a vast proliferation of 3-6 man squads. How does this affect organization? With the Vanguard being a thing, what does that do to the neophytes? We know the Gunship is called the Overlord. We know the battle tanks are Repulsors and Executioners. I want to see something new when it comes to organization. That facilitates the redesign that was forced on us.

 

Dark Imperium showed us an all Inceptor company. Granted it was in the unnumbered sons. But does a Primaris Chapter have this? Do they have ships like the Rudence? Are there new Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges too? How does the Mark X armor change the company structure. None of this requires showing their hand on new units.

 

Crap in 5 minutes they could do this...

 

1st Company - Veteran Company.

2nd Company - Battle Company.

3rd Company - Battle Company.

4th Company - Battle Company.

5th Company - Battle Company.

6th Company - Reserve Tacticus Company

7th Company - Reserve Tacticus Company

8th Company - Reserve Omnis Company

9th Company - Reserve Gravis Company

10th Company - Reserve Phobos Company “Vanguard”

 

And then further explain: “when a neophyte has completed his training and transformation he is sent to the 10th Company where he is trained in Phobos armor. As he progresses and the company replaces losses he moves through the reserve companies getting the necessary training and experience on each type of armor. By the time he is in the 6th and 7th Companies he is fully trained on all the gear and roles used by the Chapter. When he transitions to one of the Battle Companies, he is mission configurable and can switch out gear as needed for the company”. Now it makes sense to pull assets from each reserve company as needed.

 

This also allows you as a player to collect and field an all Gravis, Phobos, Tacticus army and actually paint them in the reserve company colors. And field them without a special caveat. Now the all Gravis company would be a cool assault company. I’d give them a unique name and history. That opens up cool possibilities.

 

Maybe the First Company is only veteran Battle Company units, maybe there is more. I don’t care. But think about how the revamp of the space marines could change that old structure. I think every company should be made up of 20, 5 man squads.

 

I’m just upset, I feel we are getting incomplete information to facilitate this slow rollout of the Primaris. I want well thought out information. If I wanted regurgitated stuff then why go the Primaris route in the first place?

 

Dude ... either the new guys do scouty things to train themselves or they just sit at home doing nothing. Just because someone else does the job better doesn't remove their need to train and doing scouty things is simply the best thing they can do without full access to power armour.

Space Wolves put their new guys in power armour but they are objectively worse Battlelines than their fully trained brothers (not talking crunch here) and that never bothered anybody.

 

They don't operate under the pretence of being just as good as their fully trained brothers or doing something they can't. The aim is to do real combat training instead of being completely useless and that's it.

 

Yes they have an all-Inceptors company if you want so. It's called the Close Range reserve company. They all can suit up with Inceptor loadout (provided the chapter has enough ressources at that time obviously) just like regular Marines in that company can all suit up with Jump Packs, Chainswords and Bolt pistols and deploy as Assault Marines.

 

Apparently the Mark X armour doesn't change the company structure. And why should it? There is absolutely zero reason for it in-universe. Primaris are still Marines. Marines with stronger bodies and slightly different equipment, but still Marines. They are structured like Marines, behave like Marines, fight like Marines, think like Marines, are Marines. Period.

 

Your 5 minute idea of a company structure makes no sense. Primaris aren't categorized by armour type. They are categorized by battlefield role just like regular Marines. Reserve companies still allow people to field an all Gravis, Phobos, Tacticus army the way it is. Actually if GW gives us a Gravis Troop choice people can do that even with Battlecompanies.

 

I'm really not sure why you are so upset for except that GW didn't match your personal expectations. Expectations they never anywhere implied or even just hinted at that.

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if LR opened up to Primaris in the next codex, after the backlash.

 

Possibly. And then I'm going to laugh when nobody uses LR with their Primaris anyway.

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

No, I respectfully disagree. Scouts were scouts. They facilitated a role that the rest of the Chapter didn’t do. They didn’t have scout power armor, so the neophytes that didn’t have that implant yet could provide in that capacity. That makes sense. That is reasonable.

Primaris don’t have that problem. They do have scout power armor. So we have two options now... neophytes stay home and train or they do something else for the Chapter.

 

We don’t need a weaker bolt gun guy. So remove him from the combat organization.

 

This is a big deal. Not because I hate neophytes and their place in a Chapter. Not at all. It’s a big deal because this is obvious. And because of that it screams that this organization was poorly thought. Primaris have had enough poorly thought out concepts. Let’s bring it all together and give something that is reasoned.

 

 

Yes, we certainly disagree on this issue.

 

Vanguard and scouts are certainly different yes. One is a complete marine while the other is not. The fact that they do the same type of jobs I find pretty irrelevant. Or that Vanguard can just do all the scout jobs better. Scouts are becoming marines which on its own justifies their existence. They do so through this grueling process with all the bells and whistles we all know. I find the prospect that they should just go home knitting instead of doing live combat training because Vanguard exist to be silly, frankly.

 

It also assumes the Vanguard's resources are endless, and that there's no difference in difficulty between their assignments. Why wouldn't you use scouts in addition to your vanguard for the less important missions? There's no satisfying line between the existence of Vanguard, and presuming scouts should just stay home

 

 

But I do agree with you on something, I do find the structure presented here quite uninteresting. Lazy in fact (Or perhaps more apropriately: kneecapped from the start by the lack of content to put in on account of how early it was written)

 

EDIT: Not to even mention the fact that my own chapter'ss use of neophytes is to have them fighting together with the full marines in the same squads, meaning there's no overlap with vanguard whatsoever. In the extreme minority here, I realize, and our use of neophytes with Primaris has been left completely by the wayside, as there is no Primaris Crusader squad, but I digress.

Edited June 27, 2019 by Reinhard

[Robbienw]

This is very poorly thought out.  It gives them as having scout squads, despite there being no primaris scouts sqauds in the fluff previously and no model for them.  It ignores the fluff from shadowspear that states every 10th company now has a vanguard force of 100 marines.  And it gives them Land Raiders which we know Primaris can't/currently don't use  

 

I guess the scouts are probably non-combatant though, and its just an appellation they are given when in the 10th comany training to use all the primaris armour and weapon types

Edited June 27, 2019 by Robbienw

[Gederas]

This is very poorly thought out.  It gives them as having scout squads, despite there being no primaris scouts sqauds in the fluff previously and no model for them.  It ignores the fluff from shadowspear that states every 10th company now has a vanguard force of 100 marines.  And it gives them Land Raiders which we know Primaris can't/currently don't use  

Because Primaris Scouts are JUST SCOUTS. Want to see the Primaris Scout models? Right here:

 

It PREDATES the fluff from Shadowspear in all likelihood.

 

And see my previous post: Primaris can use Land Raiders in the fluff.

[Sete]

They lack the Primaris keyword

Don't worry too much about this dudes. Im sure with more releases things will be expanded.

Edited June 27, 2019 by Sete

[Robbienw]

 

 

This is very poorly thought out. It gives them as having scout squads, despite there being no primaris scouts sqauds in the fluff previously and no model for them. It ignores the fluff from shadowspear that states every 10th company now has a vanguard force of 100 marines. And it gives them Land Raiders which we know Primaris can't/currently don't use

Because Primaris Scouts are JUST SCOUTS. Want to see the Primaris Scout models? Right here:

 

It PREDATES the fluff from Shadowspear in all likelihood.

 

And see my previous post: Primaris can use Land Raiders in the fluff.

No. Those are normal marine scout models, they have been around for ages. You can’t just suddenly declare them as Primaris models to suit your fancy, anymore than you can say your tactical marines are Primaris. Primaris marines have key distinctions from normal marines. Edited June 27, 2019 by Robbienw

[Captain Idaho]

I thought the only difference between Classic Marines and and Primaris is the additional 3 organs they add to the end process?

 

Though that messes with the continuity of it - why is it even difficult for Calgar to cross the Rubicon if all they do is add 3 extra parts they would add to normal recruits anyway.

[Gederas]

This is very poorly thought out. It gives them as having scout squads, despite there being no primaris scouts sqauds in the fluff previously and no model for them. It ignores the fluff from shadowspear that states every 10th company now has a vanguard force of 100 marines. And it gives them Land Raiders which we know Primaris can't/currently don't use

Because Primaris Scouts are JUST SCOUTS. Want to see the Primaris Scout models? Right here:

(Images removed to save post length)

 

It PREDATES the fluff from Shadowspear in all likelihood.

 

And see my previous post: Primaris can use Land Raiders in the fluff.

No. Those are normal marine scout models, they have been around for ages. You can’t just suddenly declare them as Primaris models to suit your fabncy, anymore than you can say your tactical marines are Primaris. Primaris marines have key distinctions from normal marines.

And those key distinctions are....? Three more organs which are implanted DURING THE NEOPHYTE PROCESS. Scouts are Neophytes and aren't full Marines, either Firstborn or Primaris. They can have anywhere up to the last implant. And the Primaris implants are implanted before the Black Carapace, the final implant.

 

Ergo: You're just being pedantic and willfully ignorant by ignoring the actual stuff in the books.

 

I thought the only difference between Classic Marines and and Primaris is the additional 3 organs they add to the end process?

 

Though that messes with the continuity of it - why is it even difficult for Calgar to cross the Rubicon if all they do is add 3 extra parts they would add to normal recruits anyway.

No, they're implanted during the process, before the Black Carapace. Calgar (and any future Rubicon Primaris) are difficult to do because the organs are being implanted after they're suppose to be.

 

We actually see the process of the Rubicon in Spear of the Emperor.

Edited June 27, 2019 by Gederas

[Robbienw]

Its not the end process, they put them in fairly early in the implantation phase according to the WD article on Primaris organ implantation. At least the sinew coils and the Magnificat (the one that boosts the other organs and makes them bigger) go in 4th or 5th, the belisaran furnace goes in later.

[Robbienw]

 

 

 

This is very poorly thought out. It gives them as having scout squads, despite there being no primaris scouts sqauds in the fluff previously and no model for them. It ignores the fluff from shadowspear that states every 10th company now has a vanguard force of 100 marines. And it gives them Land Raiders which we know Primaris can't/currently don't use

Because Primaris Scouts are JUST SCOUTS. Want to see the Primaris Scout models? Right here:

(Images removed to save post length)

 

It PREDATES the fluff from Shadowspear in all likelihood.

 

And see my previous post: Primaris can use Land Raiders in the fluff.

No. Those are normal marine scout models, they have been around for ages. You can’t just suddenly declare them as Primaris models to suit your fabncy, anymore than you can say your tactical marines are Primaris. Primaris marines have key distinctions from normal marines.

And those key distinctions are....? Three more organs which are implanted DURING THE NEOPHYTE PROCESS. Scouts are Neophytes and aren't full Marines, either Firstborn or Primaris. They can have anywhere up to the last implant. And the Primaris implants are implanted before the Black Carapace, the final implant.

 

Ergo: You're just being pedantic and willfully ignorant by ignoring the actual stuff in the books.

The key distinctions are size and durability. Late stage scouts who go into combat (not fresh neophytes, fresh neophytes with a few implants don’t go into combat) have always had all organs except for the black carapace.

 

The Primaris organs which make them bigger and stronger go in early in the process, so the Magnificat would take effect early on making them bigger.

 

Also the sergeant is a full marine. Marine scout squad sergeants are full marines training the scouts, they are not new recruits. So at the very least, the Sergeant would have to be larger and fully Primaris sized (and would also require two wounds in the rules).

 

There is also a rules issue, as Primaris infantry squads all have the Primaris keyword.

 

Added to that there is no fluff of Primaris scout units in combat anywhere. And there is fluff in the shadowspear book saying Primaris train in using all the armour types and wargear whilst in the 10th company.

 

Thus I think I’m probably correct in my assertion that Primaris ‘Scouts’ are non combatant. Either that or they are fielded as trainee versions of normal Primaris squads.

 

Ergo: No :D

Edited June 27, 2019 by Robbienw

[Panzer]

 

 

This is very poorly thought out. It gives them as having scout squads, despite there being no primaris scouts sqauds in the fluff previously and no model for them. It ignores the fluff from shadowspear that states every 10th company now has a vanguard force of 100 marines. And it gives them Land Raiders which we know Primaris can't/currently don't use

Because Primaris Scouts are JUST SCOUTS. Want to see the Primaris Scout models? Right here:

 

It PREDATES the fluff from Shadowspear in all likelihood.

 

And see my previous post: Primaris can use Land Raiders in the fluff.

No. Those are normal marine scout models, they have been around for ages. You can’t just suddenly declare them as Primaris models to suit your fancy, anymore than you can say your tactical marines are Primaris. Primaris marines have key distinctions from normal marines.

 

 

Way to miss the point that was made.

[Boldthreat]

I’m sorry SF. You are wrong. My expectations are that Primaris organization be thought out. You may claim I’m upset about things not going how I would want, sure, but you aren’t going to do it without taking notice of the things right in front of your face.

 

And your scout analogy is wrong. We aren’t talking about the Space Wolves or the Black Templar’s. We are talking about codex compliant chapters. The space marine scouts of old were fully trained brothers who lacked the black carapace, the last implant, and were used in a scouting/light assault/clandestine role. Their success in that culminated in their being accepted as full brothers with power armor.

 

Space Marine recruits are training and evolving the moment they are taken. Hell they are killers and battle proven before hey are even selected! Space Marines never stop training. Ever. More importantly, you don’t need a scout company of trainees when you now have a scout company of full brothers. That do the same role as the older scout company but better and with more options.

 

That doesn’t mean there aren’t neophytes. It doesn’t mean the training and implementation process isn’t as grueling and terrifying as before. It means your neophytes are relegated to fluff and lore only unless something else shows up. You also ignore something critical. The 10th Company didn’t use to have heraldry. It was blank. The Steel Templar’s do now... because it’s full of full brothers. It’s a reserve company. Scouts were tacked on here for no other reason but nostalgia. That’s dumb.

 

And I also think you are downplaying the significance of Mark X armor. Here are the facts of the Space Marines:

 

There is a progression and it’s official. Marines start in the 10th Company and Progress through the Reserves until they are experienced enough to replace the losses in the Battle Companies.

 

Here is where you are failing to see the picture. The scout company is now an all vanguard force. With heavy support, Fast Attack and battle line options. It’s clear it’s meant to operate independently if need be. Also, using your logic, my marine should go to the 9th company to get experience in heavy support before being a Eliminator in my 10th Company. No. Wrong. He’s a space marine. He’s already an expert marksman and knife fighter. He needs to learn the capabilities of the armor, the infiltration methods and tactics of that force. When that is mastered he moves on. To Gravis, Omnis and Tacticus. The suits are all geared to a specific form of fighting! And it’s not limited to weapon options. It’s a whole extra layer of training!

 

I think it’s preposterous to assume a marine needs years of training to switch from the Bolt Rifle to the Plasma Incenerator. Or a Bolt Carbine and a Sniper weapon.

 

If your argument is they are marines and proficient in all of it. Then the 10 companies should all be identical and we just do as we please. That’s not backed up by the past at all. Marines do progress and work their way through the reserve companies. You cannot hand wave that away. The only thing you somewhat have me on is keeping the reserve companies the same battlefield role. My argument against that is the 10th Company already invalidates that, and we know as a fact we are getting different roles for each suit type. And if your whole argument is they can just switch armor Willy Nilly, then my counter argument is they can just replace weapons more easily! It’s no longer battle field role, it’s the specific suit and it’s capabilites in each role. That’s a good thing. That’s better than what we ever have had. Now, GW years from now can release a new Phobos heavy support unit, and it doesn’t invalidate anything before. It slots in perfectly. Different gun or option doesn’t matter. Why screw up your whole reason for changing things and shoe horn it to fit into the old stuff you thought wasn’t working in the first place?

 

The Battle Companies are the culmination of this. They should be able to mix and match units as needed. They are fully trained and proficient. Each company can be fielded independentl, each reserve can supplement the Battle Companies in each battlefield role as needed. And it hits home the space marine progression that’s been in place for a long time.

[Panzer]

I guess we simply have to agree to disagree on that topic then because throwing back and forth "No, you are wrong." isn't going to go anywhere.

[Boldthreat]

You are right. It’s just fun to discuss. If anything I respect your opinion and position. Even in disagreement.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This has turned into quite the Primaris bash thread. Sad to see it here in one of my favorite subforums of all places.

[Lemondish]

If Scouts are still a thing then what exactly is the point of the Infiltrators if they are essentially doing the same job but are better equipped? Or the other way, Scouts AND Vanguard seem to be completely redundant even without considering the crunch of things, like a commander has a recon unit and then another recon unit but better equipped for the job as well as the unit being able to act as a frontline unit as well, why would scouts be deployed at all? I honestly dont get it but maybe its just me being slow.

 

I had always understood that Scouts on the table are a far cry from Scouts and their purpose in the lore. Furthermore, it made absolutely no sense to me that Scouts would be infiltrators but then somehow 'forget' how to do that job when they become Astartes. 

[Marshal Reinhard]

And your scout analogy is wrong. We aren’t talking about the Space Wolves or the Black Templar’s. We are talking about codex compliant chapters. The space marine scouts of old were fully trained brothers who lacked the black carapace, the last implant, and were used in a scouting/light assault/clandestine role. Their success in that culminated in their being accepted as full brothers with power armor.

 

 

Yeah I'm just gonna say this is not factually correct on part of them being fully trained. Scouts have always been described as new recruits in training afaik.

 

From the fifth edition codex (chosen just to show that this is not a 'recent' fluff change): 

"When first accepted into a Space Marine Chapter, a new recruit joins the ranks of the 10th Company as a Space Marine Scout. He is placed under the tutelage of a sergeant who will lead him on the field of battle and oversee his training and educate him in what it truly means to be one of the Adeptus Astartes."

 

 

I dare say someone who recieves tutelage is not fully trained.

 

This is the only point of contention I have with you however.

[Captain Idaho]

This has turned into quite the Primaris bash thread. Sad to see it here in one of my favorite subforums of all places.

Please can you quantify that with a quote or PM? Although I've been working so possibly missed a comment or two (I'll go back over it) I'm pretty sure no one has bashed Primaris.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That’s the general vibe I’m picking up in regards to the FOC that has been presented.

[Marshal Reinhard]

As someone who's reacted quite harshly to what I percieve to be tiring Primaris bashing in the past (I'm sure Idaho would agree), I must say I don't feel that's the case here at all.

 

If anything I feel that any negativity here is mostly focused towards the new book being limited and instead of presenting something new and fresh, more or less just has the same old we've seen before, which is well, a bit disappointing. 

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah the interpretation I get here is that people are keeping criticism to the actual lack of content for Primaris content and explanation by GW.

 

If bashing does occur though, please remember to report it. This topic is not the place for such things and it will be reviewed and acted upon where necessary.

 

:)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Thanks Captain. /thumbsup

[Boldthreat]

Now Reinhard, I’m going off memory here... it has been ages since I have even glanced at space marine recruitment and implantation and how that regards to the Scout Company.

 

I have always understood that it was neophytes at the end of their training that became scouts. Prior to them getting the black carapace but after the majority of their surgeries, implantations and training. Remember, these boys are recruited from 7 to 14 years old. They aren’t entering the scouts until 16 to 18 years old. There are years of hyptnoindoctrination, evaluations and surgery before then. As well as training.

 

I don’t doubt your position. I just think it’s a flippant discription on the sources part of a much more involved process. But the last story I read on scouts and training was Sons of Dorn? You might force me to reread that as I feel that novel reinforces my belief. But hell its been years since I read it and I could be misrepresenting it.

 

Regardless it doesn’t change my position moving forward with Primaris. With the coming of the Vanguard why do we need traditional scouts? We don’t. I’d argue it’s silly to even include them in any organizational structure. Heck I’d have them filling duties such as arming their brothers, cleaning and maintaining weapons and armor. As well as training and surviving implamentation. I wouldn’t progress them to the 10th until their first progenoid gland was matured. But that’s me.

 

I love Primaris. I’m excited for the future. I just don’t want it to be let down by partially thought out concepts. But that’s just my opinion. It would be boring if we all agreed on everything!

[Robbienw]

Now Reinhard, I’m going off memory here... it has been ages since I have even glanced at space marine recruitment and implantation and how that regards to the Scout Company.

 

I have always understood that it was neophytes at the end of their training that became scouts. Prior to them getting the black carapace but after the majority of their surgeries, implantations and training. Remember, these boys are recruited from 7 to 14 years old. They aren’t entering the scouts until 16 to 18 years old. There are years of hyptnoindoctrination, evaluations and surgery before then. As well as training.

 

Its always been that way in the fluff, and it’s always been supported by the models being the same size as normal marines and their unit sergeant (who is a full marine). It’s always been supported by unit stat lines as well. Hence my position that it is wrong to say the normal marine Scout units also represent Primaris ‘scouts’.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Well, I am in fact challanging what you have always understood.

 

You think the source I'm quoting is flippant? It goes on:

 

 "A Space Marine Scout has much to learn. Not only must he become accustomed to the many biologically engineered enhancements which are at work on his body, but he must learn the litany of battle which will fortify and strengthen him. Through a gruelling training regime that lasts for many months, the recruit will learn how to use the battlegear on which his life depends, and he will get his first real chance to fight the enemies of Mankind."

 

 

Need one more paragraph?

 

 "Throughout his entire tenure as a Space Marine Scout, the recruit is watched over and taught by his sergeant, his actions guided and judged as he strikes the foe at the weakest point with bolter, shotgun and blade. As his training progresses, the Scout will grow proficient with many other weapons of death, such as the heavy bolter, sniper rifle, missile launcher and melta bomb. Acting as part of an infiltration force, a Scout will become skilled at every aspect of war. He will learn that to be a Space Marine is to be death incarnate, no matter the terrain, the nature of the foe, or the weapons that dominate the battlefield."

 

 

The theme of the scout being in training, permeates the entire text. It's not making one careless remark, it's the very core message of the scouts description, and has been the same for pretty much all the editions i can remember. If you were to look in the latest codex, the same message, many of the same sentences, in fact, would be found.

 

If I could find my 2nd edition angels of death codex, the oldest I have, I would be pretty sure it'd be the same there, but since I can't find and prove it, I'm dropping it as a point of argument. I feel the evidence is overwhelmingly against your interpretation already.

 

And the fact that scouts ARE in training makes their existence selfexplanatory, vanguard or no vanguard present. Furthermore, you do not train the most feared and skilled elite force in the galaxy by having them sit home.

 

I've quite evidentially managed the transition to Primaris, and I've already stated it feels a bit like a letdown here already, but scouts still being scouts and used as scouts, I daresay contradicts nothing and is not one of the reasons why.