Chaos knights, and You

[Prot]

Thanks for the clarity.

 

Yea I thought of Red Corsairs. It's actually what I used to play previous to Black Legion pre-codex update. The good news of Knights + RC's is the CP stuff. The bad news is Huron on foot, trying to pass a warpcharge 8 psychic test 12" away from the target is probably going to give me issues. But it's still an option for sure. And at 360 I'm getting..... 8 command points + 3 for the super heavy detachment + 3 for battle forged = 14. Not bad really.

 

It is funny though. I bought and painted up all this Black Legion stuff and... it's not really fitting for me. lol

 

I still have a large Thousand Sons base of models and obviously I can use my old Huron, and Black Legion marines as "Red Corsairs" so the good news is I can be flexible.

 

On the thought of the Warpsmith... it's really too bad they didn't make a way for him to repair a Knight.

[Mushkilla]

The bad news is Huron on foot, trying to pass a warpcharge 8 psychic test 12" away from the target is probably going to give me issues.

Yeah Ahriman on disk is still the best deathhex delivery system we have.  

 

On the thought of the Warpsmith... it's really too bad they didn't make a way for him to repair a Knight.

If they could repair knights they would be great (I'd probably run a red corsairs CP battalion with 2 Warpsmiths at that point). Actually come to think of it I think Hellrights can repair Chaos Knights for d3 wounds. I guess they are 100+ points a model, still d3 wounds on a knight is pretty strong.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Mushkilla

[Prot]

 

The bad news is Huron on foot, trying to pass a warpcharge 8 psychic test 12" away from the target is probably going to give me issues.

Yeah Ahriman on disk is still the best deathhex delivery system we have.  

 

On the thought of the Warpsmith... it's really too bad they didn't make a way for him to repair a Knight.

If they could repair knights they would be great (I'd probably run a red corsairs CP battalion with 2 Warpsmiths at that point). Actually come to think of it I think Hellrights can repair Chaos Knights for d3 wounds. I guess they are 100+ points a model, still d3 wounds on a knight is pretty strong.

 

 

Yup, I'm still leaning towards Ahriman/Thousand Sons, but I do like Cheap CP! 

 

I looked it up in my game last night, and the only thing I could see was the Hellrights can repair "Questoris Traitor" keywords.

[Stray]

 

The other option is a battalion of red corsairs: 3x5 chaos space, Huron and a Warpsmith. That gives you 8 extra CP (9 if you make Huron your warlord) and Huron has access to death hex. It's a reasonable CP battery and access to death hex for a relatively affordable 360pts.

 

 

Not to mention you can get just shy of 20 starting CP with a full Knight Lance and the above, plus an extra one every turn on a 5+ (I think that's the roll requirement?) with one of the Knight relics.

 

That's a lot to play with in a Knight based army!

[Stray]

 

 

 

Yup, I'm still leaning towards Ahriman/Thousand Sons, but I do like Cheap CP! 

 

I looked it up in my game last night, and the only thing I could see was the Hellrights can repair "Questoris Traitor" keywords.

 

 

From memory Prot, the keyword was changed from the index, and the Hellwrights FAQ'd. They heal based on the QUESTOR TRAITOROUS or DARK MECHANICUS keywords now. I think technically we're Questor Traitoris now, but the intention for them to heal Knights is obvious, despite the slightly different spelling.

 

You're good to go on Hellwright heals.

[Questor Traitoris]

I will be rolling House Vextrix as and Infernal Household. 

 

So far I have the new Chaos Kit, the FW Chaos Kit and the Helverines kit. 

 

My plan is to field a Knight Desecrator with Thunderstrike Gauntlet and the Laser Destructor as my general. Then I will add a Knight Despoiler with a Reaper Chainsword and a Rapid-fire Battle Cannon and two War Dogs with Autocannons, all equipped with Heavy Stubbers. 

 

I think that the best artifacts for this setup are the Tyrant's Banner and the Tzeenchian Pyrothrone. Since many local players field a lot of psykers I think to go with the Warp-Haunted Hull warlord trait. 

 

This will be my core, mostly an all rounder list with the models I have and I will paint as soon as possible. I would rather not lean heavily onto the imperial knights kits so maybe a Knight Rampager is the next in line for purchase once I get some experience under my belt. 

 

I find that we have lots of options to play with and the artifacts in the book are very good and allow for a great many interesting knight  builds. 

 

Ofc. I will include a Dreadblade. With the Infernal Household rule and with the Rune of Nak'T'Graa artifact, it is a random number generator machine, but seems a very fun concept to play with and gives something to roll every turn for the laughs.

 

Overall, I love the new Chaos Knights. 

[Raven1]

So I'm going to chime in. I haven't read all the posts so if I'm being repetitive I apologize in advance.

 

As far as the melee knights go, I think the cheaper Despoiler will get more play at least on competitive tables, it's not only cheaper but when combined with the new stratagems and abilities I dont think it needs exploding 6's plus the feet IMO are more efficient than the chainsaw/fist.

 

The ability to regenerate wounds I think is huge. You can get stuck in especially with hordes and just come out stronger.

 

Double AGC is probably the best variant and most expensive so maybe only one maybe two will effectively fit in a 2000 point army. With just one and the ability to had attacks with kills he can take those kills in the shooting phase and get stompier in combat.

 

I personally still think the now classic Nurgle battalion is the best ally to run with them. Yes they are expensive but they are just a solid HQ/Troop choice. I feel like even though the Red Corsairs are good it isn't enough bodies to screen/hold objectives etc.

 

I think another solid ally are TS specifically because of deathhex. Deathhex plus double AGC knight will just be good, clear demon screens, knock down flyers etc.

 

This is just theory craft and also based on models I already have on hand. Lastly, although this is a boost to chaos I dont see chaos armies winning more tournaments as people already know how to deal with knights, but could possibly double the amount of knights on tabletops in general. It will IMO become a strong gatekeeper army and you will have to make doubly sure that your army can deal with knights.

[Prot]

It's still early, I'm in the experimental stages. I'm not sure of what colour scheme I will use. or if I will use my Knights more with Black Legion or Thousand Sons.

 

That said I did do up a batrep based on another experimental game where I use my Tyrant/Valiant. (This game was also the day before the codex was released.)

 

https://prot40k.blog/2019/07/15/prots-quickie-batrep-chaos-knights-and-thousand-sons-vs-orks/

 

The short version was I felt the Thousand Sons get a much needed boost from this. Maybe more than most chaos will need. I, personally, am sick of reaching to Forgeworld Decimators/Contemptors/Doritos/etc, etc. So this was a welcome break.

 

I know the Tyrant will see just about zero competitive play but even though I play fairly strong competition, I want to have some fun so I'm going to work on him. :)

[Excessus]

For those that has the codex, what's the "faction keyword" is it the same as the FW models or have they messed it up completely?

[DuskRaider]

I don't have the book yet but from what I understand it is different. I sincerely hope they'll correct that soon, but honestly other than the Porphyrion and Atrapos, what FW Knight is really worth taking other than to field a cool model? The Styrix and Megeara are horrendous in 8th (which is really disappointing) and the Cerastus variants (again, other than the Atrapos) do things regular Chaos Knights can but for less points.

[HeresyBeliever]

A T10 Porphyrion excites me

[Excessus]

I don't have the book yet but from what I understand it is different. I sincerely hope they'll correct that soon, but honestly other than the Porphyrion and Atrapos, what FW Knight is really worth taking other than to field a cool model? The Styrix and Megeara are horrendous in 8th (which is really disappointing) and the Cerastus variants (again, other than the Atrapos) do things regular Chaos Knights can but for less points.

 

It's the hellwright's repair-ability I'm mostly interested in. :) 

[Stray]

I don't have the book yet but from what I understand it is different. I sincerely hope they'll correct that soon, but honestly other than the Porphyrion and Atrapos, what FW Knight is really worth taking other than to field a cool model? The Styrix and Megeara are horrendous in 8th (which is really disappointing) and the Cerastus variants (again, other than the Atrapos) do things regular Chaos Knights can but for less points.

 

Hmm. I don't agree entirely. The Cerastus Knights are certainly more niche, but they have their place.

 

The Lancer is relatively cheap and is the only Knight now that can get a 4++ in melee (rotate having been changed to work vs shooting only). That makes it a natural choice for the Nurgle relic. It's damage potential is certainly no more now really than a well equipped Ravager, but it's significantly harder to kill.

 

The Acheron doesn't hit quite as hard as the Tyrant-Valiant, but it will cost you waaaaay less in CP, is much faster and more versatile (it's worth a damn in melee too) and does a pretty comparable job with its flamer - for far less in points. The fact that it can be in range of targets turn one, while the Tyrant may well not be, is quite a big selling point too.

 

The Castigator... I can't defend. It's just naff this edition. Crap melee weapon and utterly outclassed in firepower by a twin Avenger Knight.

 

They're side grades, sure. But several remain decent options in some lists, though I agree none are auto takes (no unit should be imo).

Edited July 16, 2019 by Stray

[DuskRaider]

The Lancer has more survivability but it's weapon has been reduced to slightly better than a Chainsword...

 

While I agree on the speed of the Acheron, it's flame weapon isn't comparable to the Conflagration Cannon. It could probably clear hordes out faster due to the Bolter as well, but against anything larger it's useless while the Valiant has the totally brutal Harpoon. Besides, I would certainly hope you're not sending your Tyrant into no-man's-land unaccompanied.

 

So are the keywords the same? I heard they weren't but I check 1d4chan and it sounds like they might be (which would mean Helwrights can be used with the entire army).

 

8th Edition ruined these beautiful models and I can't help but feel GW did it on purpose, which is an absolute dick move. Especially with the Styrix and Megeara, they're trash now.

[Stray]

 

I don't have the book yet but from what I understand it is different. I sincerely hope they'll correct that soon, but honestly other than the Porphyrion and Atrapos, what FW Knight is really worth taking other than to field a cool model? The Styrix and Megeara are horrendous in 8th (which is really disappointing) and the Cerastus variants (again, other than the Atrapos) do things regular Chaos Knights can but for less points.

 

It's the hellwright's repair-ability I'm mostly interested in.

 

 

They can absolutely repair Chaos Knights. The Hellwright repair works off of the 'Questor Traitoris' keyword, which we have. The slight difference in spelling was changed (and can be seen) in the FAQ's for Index: Forces of Chaos. It remains incorrect however in Battlescribe which may be causing confusion?

[Stray]

The Lancer has more survivability but it's weapon has been reduced to slightly better than a Chainsword...

 

While I agree on the speed of the Acheron, it's flame weapon isn't comparable to the Conflagration Cannon. It could probably clear hordes out faster due to the Bolter as well, but against anything larger it's useless while the Valiant has the totally brutal Harpoon. Besides, I would certainly hope you're not sending your Tyrant into no-man's-land unaccompanied.

 

Isn't it? Mathammer them out - against larger targets they are virtually identical, due to one getting slightly more average shots, while the other does higher damage.

 

Both will take out a transport like a Rhino in a single shot (given average rolls), and both do about 10 wounds to an enemy Knight - roughly the same as pouring all 24 Avenger shots into a Knight, OR two Thermal Cannon...

 

That's really not too shabby.

 

The Conflag will certainly do better against single wound horde models because the Acherons higher damage value doesn't come into play there. But you'll get him on the field and killing things way earlier than the Valiant. And what the Valiant might kill with the Harpoon, the Acheron likely will kill in assault with his gauntlet (possibly slightly more reliably too, as with re-rolls fed to it and death hex on a target, you still have a 25% chance of wiffing with the harpoon...)

 

Both options seem great to me.

 

(To be clear, all weapon damage totals I calculated using the Infernal buff - which seems a no brainer vs a large target. It was applied to everything to prevent bias in the results).

Edited July 16, 2019 by Stray

[DuskRaider]

I'll admit I do want a Lancer, if only to defile it into the service of Nurgle and use the wonderful Shield and Lance upgrade bits from Taro Modelmaker. Just not really sure it's worth the money, along with just about all the other ones barring perhaps the Atrapos or Porphyrion which really have no comparable unit in the codex.

[Stray]

I'll admit I do want a Lancer, if only to defile it into the service of Nurgle and use the wonderful Shield and Lance upgrade bits from Taro Modelmaker. Just not really sure it's worth the money, along with just about all the other ones barring perhaps the Atrapos or Porphyrion which really have no comparable unit in the codex.

 

That I agree with. As lovely as the models are £185 is really steep, and I expect it's worse still for you in the States :/

 

I bought mine as an 'ebay rescue', but it's a bit of a minefield as some are clearly re-casts being sold as the genuine article, or need a LOT of work. That said, your modelling talents are strikingly obvious Dusk (your Knights look amazing), so I've no doubt you could do something with one that someone else had mangled.

[DuskRaider]

When it comes to eBay recasts, the less I know the better. Obviously once in hand it's easier to tell, but at purchase it can be deceiving.

 

I may eventually splurge on a Cerastus and at one point I was supposed to get an Atrapos in exchange for a paint commission, hit ultimately I turned it down. Still, I think one of those as an Infernal Warlord could be quite nasty.

[Guiltysparc]

I'm not sure the Lancer is so bad. It is extremely fast after you pile on the movement buffs from the codex. 14" + 2 move, then 2d6+3 advance, then 2cp for Full Tilt (allows unit to charge after advancing) 2d6 + 3 charge...that's a first turn charge easy peasy.

[Stray]

I'm not sure the Lancer is so bad. It is extremely fast after you pile on the movement buffs from the codex. 14" + 2 move, then 2d6+3 advance, then 2cp for Full Tilt (allows unit to charge after advancing) 2d6 + 3 charge...that's a first turn charge easy peasy.

 

The Lancer is great. The glaring issue with it is the same as you get with any powerful melee unit. You'll get your first turn charge off...

 

...and end up right into the middle of the screening unit any competent player will have protecting anything worth charging, before counter charging you with his/her own nasty melee unit.

[helterskelter]

 

 

I'm not sure the Lancer is so bad. It is extremely fast after you pile on the movement buffs from the codex. 14" + 2 move, then 2d6+3 advance, then 2cp for Full Tilt (allows unit to charge after advancing) 2d6 + 3 charge...that's a first turn charge easy peasy.

The Lancer is great. The glaring issue with it is the same as you get with any powerful melee unit. You'll get your first turn charge off...

 

...and end up right into the middle of the screening unit any competent player will have protecting anything worth charging, before counter charging you with his/her own nasty melee unit.

That's a single unit vacuum there, if you have the shooting to deal with said units, you'll be breaking the line enough to get through with your knight to the tasty interior

[Stray]

 

 

I'm not sure the Lancer is so bad. It is extremely fast after you pile on the movement buffs from the codex. 14" + 2 move, then 2d6+3 advance, then 2cp for Full Tilt (allows unit to charge after advancing) 2d6 + 3 charge...that's a first turn charge easy peasy.

The Lancer is great. The glaring issue with it is the same as you get with any powerful melee unit. You'll get your first turn charge off...

 

...and end up right into the middle of the screening unit any competent player will have protecting anything worth charging, before counter charging you with his/her own nasty melee unit.

That's a single unit vacuum there, if you have the shooting to deal with said units, you'll be breaking the line enough to get through with your knight to the tasty interior

 

 

Well, maybe...

 

Our best horde clearing unit is clear: The twin Avenger Knight. Now at best, that unit can kill 24 models. Pretty good right?

 

Let's see what it's actually likely to do vs one of the most popular screens in the competitive scene right now. 30 Plaguebearers.

 

After all 24 shots are fired, on average you'll kill 4. 4 models from the whole screen. That drops to 3 if the player pops the increased save strat.

 

In a friendly game I'm sure that'd work out fine, but in a competitive landscape melee Knights are problematic. This isn't an issue with the Knights themselves, but with this type of unit as a whole in 8th edition.

 

That's not to say there are no ways of making it work, just that you need to be very wary of spending points on a unit that's only usable in that one area of the game today.

[Excessus]

Have a dedicated assault unit charge the chaff and pull them over to one side, making room for the knights to get stuck in. 

[Mushkilla]

Have a dedicated assault unit charge the chaff and pull them over to one side, making room for the knights to get stuck in.

How does that work? The charged screen unit doesn't have to move. Even if they do move it won't be until after your charge phase is finished.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Mushkilla