Chaos knights, and You

[Guiltysparc]

With Lancers buffed movement, you could (at best) run around the screen and (at worst) only be stuck for 1 turn. After you tap dance on them you'll get to consolidate 3" to set up just walking over them 14" in your turn and charging something else.

[Stray]

With Lancers buffed movement, you could (at best) run around the screen and (at worst) only be stuck for 1 turn. After you tap dance on them you'll get to consolidate 3" to set up just walking over them 14" in your turn and charging something else.

 

You're assuming a screen would only be in front of a miniature. Usually you'd surround a model to prevent charges from deep strikers and the like.

 

Given an extra attack over base from traits, the Lancer would kill 3 models from that screen on average via tap dancing. 

 

Now with these large screens, 30 is conservative. What you're more likely to see right now is 60, and pretty well spread out to allow for board control. I think you'd be incredibly lucky to find somewhere your large based Knight could conceivably go.

 

Again, it'd work great vs some armies, and certainly I'm sure in casual games. But it's a no go against a hard list. There's a reason why we're not seeing Lancers at tournaments...

 

Not at all the units fault - I love the Lancer, but it's a victim of 8th edition mechanics.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Stray

[hermanista]

I see lancers quite regularly in tournaments...

 

Granted it's mine... but still.

 

I found on the imperial side that it's the unsung hero of my list in a pure list, it's just a bit unfortunate that you have to make it a warlord to get its traits/relic to make it better.

 

Yes a crusader is better, and in chaos the twin weapons are going to be formidable, but my Krast lancer with a 2+ save and extra attack has been my MVP multiple times.

 

To the point where I'm giving some thought to a chaos version - khorne target on a lancer will fix its biggest issue - that bloody inv save on an enemy

[Stray]

I see lancers quite regularly in tournaments...

 

Granted it's mine... but still.

 

I found on the imperial side that it's the unsung hero of my list in a pure list, it's just a bit unfortunate that you have to make it a warlord to get its traits/relic to make it better.

 

Yes a crusader is better, and in chaos the twin weapons are going to be formidable, but my Krast lancer with a 2+ save and extra attack has been my MVP multiple times.

 

To the point where I'm giving some thought to a chaos version - khorne target on a lancer will fix its biggest issue - that bloody inv save on an enemy

 

Khornate target sounds great, but I think on a second look, it's pants. Consider that it's one use only, and that it will also shut off your Lancers great advantage - it's 4++ invuln.

 

...Now consider you can simply use Death Hex as Chaos to do the same thing, with no penalty, as often as you like...

Edited July 16, 2019 by Stray

[Dr_Ruminahui]

 

...Now consider you can simply use Death Hex as Chaos to do the same thing, with no penalty, as often as you like...

 

 

I don't think that's entirely accurate, as:

   1.  You can only use death hex once per turn and only on one unit, creating an opportunity cost if you want to deny more than one invulnerable saves;

   2.  Death Hex requires you have a sorcerer in range, which may not be possible if you are aiming for a first turn charge;

   3.  Death Hex requires a psychic test, which can fail and/or wound the sorcerer; and

   4.  Death Hex can be denied.

 

Additionally, if I recall correctly the Khornate Target isn't activated until the fight phase, when most knights don't have an invulnerable save anyway, and meaning that you still get it against overwatch.  Not certain how long it lasts - if its only for the fight phase, its has no real disadvantage at all unless the Lancer gets its invulnerable in melee (I don't know - I haven't read the rules for the FW knights).

 

So, I think Khornate Target is a valuable addition to Death Hex, but shouldn't be viewed as a replacement for fielding at least one death hex sorcerer.

[Stray]

 

 

...Now consider you can simply use Death Hex as Chaos to do the same thing, with no penalty, as often as you like...

 

 

I don't think that's entirely accurate, as:

   1.  You can only use death hex once per turn and only on one unit, creating an opportunity cost if you want to deny more than one invulnerable saves;

   2.  Death Hex requires you have a sorcerer in range, which may not be possible if you are aiming for a first turn charge;

   3.  Death Hex requires a psychic test, which can fail and/or wound the sorcerer; and

   4.  Death Hex can be denied.

 

Additionally, if I recall correctly the Khornate Target isn't activated until the fight phase, when most knights don't have an invulnerable save anyway, and meaning that you still get it against overwatch.  Not certain how long it lasts - if its only for the fight phase, its has no real disadvantage at all unless the Lancer gets its invulnerable in melee (I don't know - I haven't read the rules for the FW knights).

 

So, I think Khornate Target is a valuable addition to Death Hex, but shouldn't be viewed as a replacement for fielding at least one death hex sorcerer.

 

 

 

These are all fair points for sure.

 

Competitively, it'll almost certainly be Ahriman and a couple of minions as the caster however, which does stack the odds a lot at getting the cast off. 30" effective range for the Hex (including movement), and +3 to the cast means it's exceedingly likely to go off.

[DuskRaider]

I will say, a Dreadblade Lancer could probably pull off all sorts of shenanigans with abilities like Thunderous Charge, especially against elite armies. You could pair it with Putrid Carapace of Nurgle to stack more Mortal Wounds on. Hell, you could even mix and match to make it a supercharged Ld. destroying hell vessel that runs in and screws with the enemy in advance of the rest of your army so they can get to the enemy line easier.

 

Hmm... now you're making me want a Lancer even more, lol

[helterskelter]

If we're doing fearbombing, get the -ld doodads on your knight pelting it up the field with NL/slaanesh daemons. Fear soup if you will. Get suitably in Range and in its vacuum, -2 for the knight within 6", -3 for 3 night lords units, -1 for raptors, -1 for Nurgle standard, -1 if you pick a victim for phantasmagoria. That's -8 not including what you kill, if you manage something to slide butcher cannons in and wound that target there's another -2 to the intended victim.

So passively -7 is still shattering. And there's a knight stamping all over whichever unit has earned your ire.

[Excessus]

 

Have a dedicated assault unit charge the chaff and pull them over to one side, making room for the knights to get stuck in.

How does that work? The charged screen unit doesn't have to move. Even if they do move it won't be until after your charge phase is finished.

 

 

Oh? They don't have to move towards their attackers? I move between HH and 40k a lot so sometimes I get confused aboiut the finer details of the rules.

[DuskRaider]

The Atrapos also has a Ld. debuff on it's weapon, so that could pair well with the other debuff stuff.

[Guiltysparc]

The Khorne relic activates during the fight phase and only lasts until the end of the phase, so it doesn't works against your own knight (unless it's on a Lancer, but I'm thinking the Lancer is going to kill anything it gets to fight first after a charge when the target doesn't get an invuln save).

[Stray]

The Khorne relic activates during the fight phase and only lasts until the end of the phase, so it doesn't works against your own knight (unless it's on a Lancer, but I'm thinking the Lancer is going to kill anything it gets to fight first after a charge when the target doesn't get an invuln save).

 

Hmm. It depends. Lets simulate a few combats against a few of the usual suspects using the Lancer:

 

Girlyman you will without his invuln (of course there's a decent chance he comes back), Mortarion you won't, an enemy Knight you won't.

 

If you had charged a Gallant, there's a reasonable chance you die (depending on it's set up) when it fights back too because you lost your save.

 

Remember too, a Gallant or Renegade analog of it, with the standard Gauntlet, does more damage than a Lancer does...

 

...Even on the charge...

 

...For fewer points.

 

The Lancer's big advantage is it's very tough to kill in melee. You remove that advantage by giving it the Khorne relic, whereas the Gallant doesn't care - it probably never had a save anyway, and will hit the target harder...

 

And that's before we even get into the likes of Death Grip as a follow up.

 

TL:DR the Khorne relic is very much the double edged sword. Use it *only* on targets you can be sure of killing on the charge, else there's a good chance your melee invuln Knight gets mangled. The Lancer is a poor use of the relic over a Gallant, but can benefit from Death Hex without the same risk (and you aren't forced to make it your Warlord).

Edited July 17, 2019 by Stray

[Sgt. Blank]

Nice discussion in this thread, giving me some good ideas. Prot thanks for the battle report.

 

TL:DR the Khorne relic is very much the double edged sword. Use it *only* on targets you can be sure of killing on the charge, else there's a good chance your melee invuln Knight gets mangled.

Fair point. It does appear to deny the target model invulnerable saves the whole phase, so other charging models also benefit. I like the idea of the artefact and usually run my CSM as Worldeaters, so it's a non-psychic option that can't fail. The downside is that it's melee only and it used an artefact slot when there are other tempting options.

 

Totally unrelated, am I reading correctly that a Rampager with reaper chainsword and thunderstrike gauntlet is 20% more than a Despoiler with the same armament? I'm interested in using the unique chassis but the Despoiler looks like a real bargain points wise.

 

Edit: misread options for the Desecrator and corrected to avoid spreading confusion. Drinking more coffee to wake up brain.

Edited July 17, 2019 by Sgt. Blank

[Guiltysparc]

 

 

The Khorne relic activates during the fight phase and only lasts until the end of the phase, so it doesn't works against your own knight (unless it's on a Lancer, but I'm thinking the Lancer is going to kill anything it gets to fight first after a charge when the target doesn't get an invuln save).

Hmm. It depends. Lets simulate a few combats against the usual suspects:

 

Girlyman you will without his invuln (of course there's a decent chance he comes back), Mortarion you won't, an enemy Knight you won't.

 

If you had charged a Gallant, there's a reasonable chance you die (depending on it's set up) when it fights back too because you lost your save.

 

Remember too, a Gallant or Renegade analog of it, with the standard Gauntlet, does more damage than a Lancer does... Even on the charge. For fewer points.

The Lancer's *sole* advantage is it's very tough to kill in melee. You remove that advantage by giving it the Khorne relic, whereas the Gallant doesn't care - it probably never had a save anyway, and will hit the target harder...

 

TL:DR the Khorne relic is very much the double edged sword. Use it *only* on targets you can be sure of killing on the charge, else there's a good chance your melee invuln Knight gets mangled. The Lancer is a poor use of the relic over a Gallant.

Oh, I totally agree re: the Lancer. My post was about that relic in general (someone above had asked about how long it lasts). I wouldn't take it on a Lancer for the reasons you mention.

[Guiltysparc]

Nice discussion in this thread, giving me some good ideas. Prot thanks for the battle report.

 

 

 

TL:DR the Khorne relic is very much the double edged sword. Use it *only* on targets you can be sure of killing on the charge, else there's a good chance your melee invuln Knight gets mangled.

Fair point. It does appear to deny the target model invulnerable saves the whole phase, so other charging models also benefit. I like the idea of the artefact and usually run my CSM as Worldeaters, so it's a non-psychic option that can't fail. The downside is that it's melee only and it used an artefact slot when there are other tempting options.

 

Totally unrelated, am I reading correctly that a Rampager with reaper chainsword and thunderstrike gauntlet is 20% more than a Despoiler with the same armament and a Desecrator is a further 20% more on top of that? I'm interested in using the unique chassis but the Despoiler looks like a real bargain points wise.

 

It looks like it's more points to field a melee Desecrator than it is to mount the laser destructor, which doesn't make sense to me in the least. You lose all serious shooting and retain options for melee vs. armor (knight melee weapon) and hordes (feet) for an extra 8ish% more points.

You pay the extra 30 (ish?) points for the Rampager for it's extra hits on to-hit rolls of 6. The gauntlet/Chainsword Despoiler doesn't have that.

[Stray]

 

You pay the extra 30 (ish?) points for the Rampager for it's extra hits on to-hit rolls of 6. The gauntlet/Chainsword Despoiler doesn't have that.

 

 

Yeah, exactly right.

 

I'd be tempted to take a Rampager based on the cool factor, but as I suspect you're seeing, it has a problem...

 

If that exploding hit rule worked on Feet, it'd probably be worth it. It'd make for a great horde clearing, or elite infantry killing tool - you'd generate a fair few extra hits. 

 

On the Gauntlet or Sword, you *might* get one extra per round. 

 

And if you look into the kinda damage you can already do with the relic Gauntlet on a standard Despoiler, you'll notice swiftly that you really don't need the possibility of that extra hit. You already out damage a Knight Porphyrion given average rolls... 

 

If you're truly min maxing, the Rampager likely isn't worth the extra cost for that one rule.

 

...but it IS goddamn cool. :)

Edited July 17, 2019 by Stray

[Excessus]

 

...but it IS goddamn cool.

 

 

Sometimes that's enough. :D

[Guiltysparc]

Exploding 6s on feet would be totally awesome and bonkers, but I think you're right. The Rampager isn't the min/max choice, but it's totally cool! The great thing is that you can use that sweet, new model for both and make the decision on the fly.

[MegaVolt87]

Do the new chaos knights have access to carapace weapons? There seem to be no missile launcher or cannon thingy like on the imperial knight kit. 

[Stray]

Do the new chaos knights have access to carapace weapons? There seem to be no missile launcher or cannon thingy like on the imperial knight kit. 

 

The Rampager doesn't (the new kit represents a specific Knight chassis called the 'Abhorrent' class, so the Rampager is an Abhorrent class Knight). Otherwise though weapon options are the same as usual, so you can take Ironstorm missiles and the like on Despoilers etc.

 

Edit: The Desecrator being an Abhorrent class also, can also not take carapace weapons. Not that it needs them with that amazing laser it has!...

 

...

 

:P

Edited July 17, 2019 by Stray

[MegaVolt87]

 

Do the new chaos knights have access to carapace weapons? There seem to be no missile launcher or cannon thingy like on the imperial knight kit. 

 

The Rampager doesn't (the new kit represents a specific Knight chassis called the 'Abhorrent' class, so the Rampager is an Abhorrent class Knight). Otherwise though weapon options are the same as usual, so you can take Ironstorm missiles and the like on Despoilers etc.

 

Edit: The Desecrator being an Abhorrent class also, can also not take carapace weapons. Not that it needs them with that amazing laser it has!...

 

...

 

 

 

That's interesting, so the despoiler is just a chaos corrupted Imperial knight while the new kit is its own separate chassis variant. 

[Sgt. Blank]

As far as I can tell, the Despoiler is the Renegade Knight entry from the index with the new keywords added. The main difference with the Imperial Knight is the option to equip two guns instead of a gun and melee weapon.

 

Agree the Rampager sounds cool, I'd like the exploding 6s to be effective and will probably try it. I'm not sure either a melee Despoiler or a Rampager is a particularly competitive choice since they don't really bring anything to the shooting phase. 

 

That said, I'm still a bit confused on the point cost for the Despoiler if its armed for melee and hope someone can straighten me out. On page 71, the table header says the unit cost doesn't include wargear - there's an entry for a Despoiler as well as an entry for a Despoiler with 1 reaper chainsword and 1 thunderstrike gauntlet for 20 points more. Looking at the wargear costs, this second entry appears to be getting a discount of 45 points compared to adding the two weapons to the base cost of the plain Despoiler entry.

 

The difference between the unarmed Rampager and unarmed Despoiler is 35, which is maybe a bit much for +1 Attack and exploding 6s on the reaper chainsword., and that holds if you add the reaper and thunderstrike and stubber. Comparing the Despoiler with 1 reaper chainsword and 1 thunderstrike gauntlet entry to the armed Rampager is a difference of 80 points, which is almost half the cost of a War Dog.

 

Am I missing something there?

Edited July 18, 2019 by Sgt. Blank

[Raven1]

@Sgt. Blank

 

Too build a Despoiler with claw and chainsword, you take the point cost of the Despoiler with both and then buy the weapons on top of it. The melee despoiled has +1 WS and +1 A, so it cost a bit more. Expect an FAQ to bring the Gallant to go up in price as well. The Rampager is then s bit more expensive. I beleive it's like 15 points more for the exploding 6s.

[MegaVolt87]

Are the new melee chaos varient beast mode in close combat and fast mvt? I was looking at the deal with the dex, knight and strat cards on GW website. I got a lot of dakka already with my IW's.

 

Edit: that knight deal is temp out of stock for me. REEEEEEEE!!!! 

Edited July 18, 2019 by MegaVolt87

[Sgt. Blank]

@Sgt. Blank

 

Too build a Despoiler with claw and chainsword, you take the point cost of the Despoiler with both and then buy the weapons on top of it. The melee despoiled has +1 WS and +1 A, so it cost a bit more. Expect an FAQ to bring the Gallant to go up in price as well. The Rampager is then s bit more expensive. I beleive it's like 15 points more for the exploding 6s.

 

Thanks for pointing that out, that makes more sense. The entry with the wargear listed was throwing me off.