Chaos knights, and You

[Mushkilla]

So it seems the helm of warp sight relic would mitigate the ranged part of the -1 to hit penalty of the defiant machine spirit damnation. Not game changing but handy none the less.

[Excessus]

Hmm, is the lower stat brackets on the datasheet counted as modifiers? :P

[Stray]

I've heard in various places that our Titanic Duel stratagem, affects both players. Mechanically, this seemed bizarre to me - you'd often have to hand over a huge advantage to get it to go off.

 

I've been reading and considering it thoroughly today, and I confess I don't see anything to indicate a bonus or benefit being handed to the opponent at all. I suspect, this has being misread quite badly by people.

 

Here is the wording:

 

'Select one CHAOS KNIGHTS MODEL from your army that is within 1" of any enemy TITANIC UNITS. Both players secretly choose a number between one and three... ...The numbers are revealed at the same time; if they differ, then until the end of that phase, add the number YOU chose to the Attacks characteristics of that MODEL, but attacks made with melee weapons by that MODEL can only target TITANIC UNITS.'

 

Notice how the opponents piece is always referred to as a unit, and ours as a model - I think purposely to differentiate the element the stratagem is working upon. The strat also clearly says that we apply the number WE (you) chose to the attacks - there is no implication apparent that the opponent can do the same. They merely get to attempt to prevent you receiving a bonus, thus nullifying the strat...

[Mushkilla]

Yeah, it only affects the chaos knight. It's really clear.

 

The 40k internet isn't always good at reading comprehension. Several places I've seen people say the profane secrets pact gives you a CP a turn. Or say the break the enemy stratagem is pointless. Or just generally completely misquote rules. Etc.

[Mushkilla]

So another new find from some more games. As some of you might have noticed the new wording of Trail of destruction means it can now be used during overwatch.

 

At first I dissmised this, thinking it would be a waste of CP. But it almost doubles the damage of your overwatch going from 16.6% hits to 30% hits. With double avengers this means going from 4 to 8 hits. When combined with double heavy flamers, stubber and a carapace weapon this can be quite potent. Also if you've use Daemonic power then it still applies.

 

The best part though is that it applies for the whole phase. So if the charging unit fails the charge or gets destroyed by overwatch. Then any subsequent overwatch fired by that knight for the rest of the phase gets re-rolls to hit. I find knights most vulnerable when getting charged, having decent overwatch can really help mitigate this.

[Excessus]

Good find!

[Stray]

So another new find from some more games. As some of you might have noticed the new wording of Trail of destruction means it can now be used during overwatch.

 

At first I dissmised this, thinking it would be a waste of CP. But it almost doubles the damage of your overwatch going from 16.6% hits to 30% hits. With double avengers this means going from 4 to 8 hits. When combined with double heavy flamers, stubber and a carapace weapon this can be quite potent. Also if you've use Daemonic power then it still applies.

 

The best part though is that it applies for the whole phase. So if the charging unit fails the charge or gets destroyed by overwatch. Then any subsequent overwatch fired by that knight for the rest of the phase gets re-rolls to hit. I find knights most vulnerable when getting charged, having decent overwatch can really help mitigate this.

 

I used this recently in a game vs some Death Company and their extensive collection of Thunder Hammers. Their experience in charging the dual Avenger Knight can best be summed up with a single word:

 

Regret.

 

That will make a mess of most infantry in overwatch.

[Prot]

I have yet to finish my Dual Avenger Knight. Are you guys using it mostly with Infernal? I’ve really enjoyed playing Iconoclast so far with my other Knights.

[DuskRaider]

I say try both out and see what works for you. While Iconoclast does tend to favor CC and Infernal ranged, they both still have plenty of tricks to make the opposing weapon of choice perfectly viable.

 

That being said, I'm probably going to initially field mine as Iconoclast since most of my Knights are short range or CC only.

[Prot]

Well I know with my Tyrant(Valiant) I am playing Iconoclast for two reasons that I personally enjoy: 1 is the Medrengard shield so I don't have to worry about Rotate Ion Shields which is too expensive for Tyrants. 2 is the bonus attack when charged/charging which is a decent 'get out of jail' card if I get hit by something that fails to bring the Knight down. Even at reduced WS I do like the bonus stomps for a chance at making an impact even in lower tiers. 

[DuskRaider]

Funny, those are the options I chose for my Tyrant as well haha. They're definitely a moving target and giving them something to defend themselves / up their existing defense is extremely beneficial. Especially for a Valiant equivalent which needs to be in the enemy's face so it can melt it.

 

I just wish we had a rule for the Harpoon where we could actually reel in an enemy tank / super heavy / monstrous creature. I remember back in the day you could do it in Warmachines and I think (I'm not sure) the Khorne Blood Slaughterer had a similar rule as well.

[Sgt. Blank]

Depending on points, I've been thinking of running 2 small Super Heavy detachments instead of one big one and fielding the ranged units together in an Infernal Detachment and the melee oriented ones together in an Iconoclast detachment. The points per model are so high I doubt I can squeeze more than one other detachment on top of 5-6 Knights so I'm not missing much from the number of detachments, plus it yields more CP (I don't have 3 titanic models - yet)

[Excessus]

Oooh, new FAQ and FW errata out for Chaos Knights :)

[helterskelter]

Oooh, new FAQ and FW errata out for Chaos Knights :)

AAAAAAAWHHHHHHHH 40k CHAOS VOLKITE, AAAAAAHHHHHHHH those siege claws too... i for one am excited

[Prot]

I have still been enjoying the Tyrant/Valiant varietywity some Wardogs. I wish Forgeworld was more accessible here but at the same time I still like having the majority of my points (or as close as possible) to Black Legion.

[DuskRaider]

So in our post-FAQ Chaos Knight world, what do we think of the FW Knights?

 

My original reaction was they all took a major hit. Thinking more on it, I actually believe the Castigator and Acheron have been improved decently. The Atrapos also has been given a bit of a boost, while the Lancer took a major dive IMO.

 

The loss of wound regeneration and the 4++ is a bummer, but I believe this is more to prevent abuse with pre-existing rules in the codex. While losing Flanking Speed isn't a deal breaker on the Acheron or Castigator, I do believe it hurt the Lancer a bit too much, especially when coupled with the change to the Invul. which is a shame since our last conversation pretty much convinced me I needed a Lancer in the near future.

 

All of this pales in comparison to the absolute massacre the Porphyrion's rules took in the update. I think it's safe to say that GW has killed the Acastus variants in all but perhaps 30K gameplay. I'm honestly shocked by it.

[Mushkilla]

Daemonic rift got nerfed (it now only causes perils on doubles). It's was situational and underwhelming before, but now I don't see myself ever using. Why bother when I can just summon an infernal enrapturess and get the same affect in a 24" bubble for the rest of the game?

 

It was questionable before because it doesn't stop the power you want stop going off unless the caster is within 12" of one of your knights and has 2 or less wounds remaining (so has been wounded or has been affected by perils already). For it to be effective you needed to have it active over multiple turns and we have better things to spend the CP on. All this was when it worked on any roll, now I don't see myself ever using it.

[Raven1]

So in our post-FAQ Chaos Knight world, what do we think of the FW Knights?

 

Given the increased cost of FW in dollars and cents the nerfs and in general higher points cost for FW knights, I think the plain Jane GW variety are good enough.

 

The FW Armiger the Moirax especially those Lighting Locks is cheaper, has a respectable 12 shots S6 at 36" and ignores moving penalties for firing heavy weapons. I definitely can see those popping up for people especially those who used War Dogs in the first place.

[DuskRaider]

It's a bummer because I think I'd enjoy modeling up a corrupted Cerastus of some sort, but yeah... price hikes and comparable options in the codex have kinda cast the specialty Knights into the abyss.

 

Those new Armigers ARE pretty cool, though. They may be worth the investment. I know in their fluff they're automatons, I was hoping to see some kind of rule to represent that. Ah well...

[helterskelter]

Im inclined to do a mixed ranged loadout with the moirax and have 1 lightning lock and 1 Volkite, and run a pair.

Yes it's less efficient than straight doubling up but if one dies the other still has all the lethal 6's

[Excessus]

I'm thinking of doing one with double locks and one with rad-claw & volkite. I like the claw for the heroic intervention times. 

[Guiltysparc]

The loss of flank speed for the Lancer really kills it. I like the armiger variants though, and I might try them out with the 2 I have currently.

[hermanista]

People mention Lancers and I come running.

 

I said before in the threat I'd really consider a lancer with khorne target for that one big charge.

 

Now I'd think about it even more.

 

I wish my imperial lancer had a way to remove the in on of an enemy without souping

[Fhanados]

What do people think about the Styrix and Magaera? I've always thought of them as a lesser alternative to the Renegade Knight but with the codex and the updates to FW knights made me take a second look.

 

Being able to take the Chainsword instead of the Siege Claw helps shave off a few points and now they have access to Infernal/Iconoclast benefits and stratagems I'm liking the look of them. Bumping up the S and Dmg on the Lightning Cannon and Vulkite seems like it could be fun and throwing in relics and warlord traits can give them a bit of a boost.

 

I still don't think they're "optimal" but I think they're not a terrible choice anymore.

[DuskRaider]

The Mageara seems to have gotten a pretty good upgrade, though it's point cost is way too much to offset it. It's almost as much as a Tyrant and that's ridiculous.

 

Styrix still seems like it's garbage. And I don't know about any of you, but I don't think I'd ever favor a Chainsword over the Hekaton. Ever.