Chaos knights, and You

[Prot]

Just doing a follow up with my findings thus far...

 

I have been playing a very similar Knight set up with both my Thousand Sons and my Black Legion. It’s not that I’m greatly attached to my particular Knight but instead I’m trying to really tell which army I like better with the Knights.

 

So far I think the Thousand Sons benefit more. They love the extra shooting support.

 

Competitively I have to believe there is only one situation I find the Thousand Sons are truly better and its in a niche matchup.... whenever an 18” removal of an invulnerable save is paramount.

 

The Black Legion wins I’ve had have been monstrous on some occasions where the Thousand Sons have enjoyed convincing wins it’s not to the same degree.

 

Thousand sons get to be a little funner with the Knights. There’s no need for Magnus, and you can spend the additional points on funner support choices

[Khornestar]

Picked up an Acheron following these updates. The -1 to hit with the chainfist always seemed like a dumb rule, so I’m glad they changed that even though the Cerastus chassis rules are gone.

[Fhanados]

I haven't played with my Knights yet (one is still in the mail), but how do people feel about them CP-wise? I've made two lists, one with 3 Despoilers and a Red Corsair CP battery that clocks in at 18CP before pre-game stratagems, and one with 3 Despoilers, 1 Desecrator and 2 War Dogs that nets me 12CP. Lists are in Spoilers below if anyone is interested.

 

Red Corsairs

BATALLON - RED CORSAIRS

HQ:  Huron Blackheart (Warlord)

HQ: Sorcerer, Force Stave, Plasma Pistol, Eye of Tzeentch

TR: Chaos Space Marines x5, Meltagun x1, Power Fist on Champ

TR: Chaos Space Marines x5, Meltagun x1, Power Fist on Champ

TR: Chaos Space Marines x5, Meltagun x1, Power Fist on Champ

DT: Rhino, 2x Combi-Bolter, Havoc Launcher

DT: Rhino, 2x Combi-Bolter, Havoc Launcher

 

SUPER HEAVY DETACHMENT - CHAOS KNIGHTS

SH: Knight Despoiler: Rapidfire Battlecannon x2, Heavy Stubber x3, Ironstorm Missile Pod

SH: Knight Despoiler: Avenger Gatling Cannon x2, Heavy Flamer x2, Heavy Stubber x1, Twin Icarus Autocannon

SH: Knight Despoiler: Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Reaper Chainsword, Heavy Stubber

 

Pure Knights

SUPER HEAVY DETACHMENT - CHAOS KNIGHTS

SH: Knight Desecrator Laser Destructor, Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword

SH: Wardog, Heavy Stubber, Thermal Spear, Reaper Chaincleaver

SH: Wardog, Heavy Stubber, Thermal Spear, Reaper Chaincleaver

 

SUPER HEAVY DETACHMENT - CHAOS KNIGHTS

SH: Knight Despoiler: Meltagun, Thermal Cannon, Thermal Cannon

SH: Knight Despoiler: Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubber 2x, Rapidfire Battle Cannon

SH: Knight Despoiler: Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Reaper Chainsword, Heavy Stubber

 

I'm leaning towards Infernal household (I just like the stratagems better) but am otherwise undecided as far as warlord traits, relics and dreadblades go. I'm leaning towards giving the relic laser to the Desecrator in List 2, it just seems the way to get your points worth from it. Other than that there are so many cool options I don't know!

[Prot]

So there's a lot of questions in there, and I don't want my response to be all over the place so I'll try and keep it related to the most important stuff.

 

- If you're taking the Desecrator, the relic gun is nearly a must. I've played the loyalist version, and I've played the Desecrator in a few games. That gun is complete garbage. I'm shocked they let it stand as is. A simple fix would have been D3 shots +1 every turn. But instead this pretty much forces you to buy the relic. Chaos Knight relics are very good, you're going to want multiples no matter what list you bring.

 

- Wardogs are darn good. Better with Chaos imho than Warglaives. The strats are very good. I really like them with the Desecrator as well. (either type are great)

 

- CP is something I find once you have all your pregame stuff (pre game relics, and the Strats are VERY important, and perhaps my favourite part of the chaos knights. I find once I have about 8 or so after pregame stuff, I'm good.

 

- Red Corsairs are alright. Extra CP is fun, just the fact is with Knight armies the infantry is usually very light and will die to a stiff breeze. That said I think it's a necessary evil. If you play ITC or Maelstrom you're going to need bodies. Pure Chaos Knights is fun, but really hard to win with against someone who knows what they're doing.

 

- The Warlord traits are kinda of blah. There's nothing that is so good you auto take. The Relics will help you decided what house you want to play. There are a few really good ones.  You'll have to playtest it to be fair. 

[Guiltysparc]

I posted a list idea in the list subforum but didn't get much in the way of feedback, so I'll throw it in here since we're talking about general list design.

 

I was thinking a melee focused knights detachment (a Rampager or fist/saw Despoiler with two chain glaive wardogs), a demon detachment of flesh hounds and a bloodthirster, and a world eaters detachment with Berzerkers would be a nice pairing at 1,500 points. Everything is pretty fast and the blob of hounds can control a lot of board space and either provide early pressure or screen. Between the knights, BT, and Berzerkers, I feel like the threat is spread out pretty good too.

 

It would be light on CP at 7, but I don't think it would need much either. Pregame stuff, one use of full tilt and maybe VotLW.

[Stray]

 

 

- Wardogs are darn good. Better with Chaos imho than Warglaives. The strats are very good. I really like them with the Desecrator as well. (either type are great)

 

 

 

 

I couldn't disagree more with this. Wardogs, much like Armigers are generally useful only as a 'cheap' unit that can be used to fill out spaces in a detachment to reach a CP requirement. They simply don't have a great deal of impact in games, and this is fairly trivial to prove:

 

Given average rolls, a twin Autocannon Armiger will kill 3.8 GEQ a turn, 1.8 MEQ's or knock 4 wounds off a Rhino. It additionally has almost no melee ability whatsoever.

The other variety does perhaps slightly better, with even poorer average shooting than its counterpart, but it can kill 4.5 GEQ, 2.3 MEQ or take 4.4 wounds from a Rhino in CC.

 

Let's face it, let's be real, these units are a tax. Yes, that damage rating on the Autocannon looks lovely on paper, but in practice it does very little - maths doesn't play favourites or lie.

I think they get worse still if you're trying to take a group as a main component alongside the desecrator and its awful weapon loadout, and pretty minor buff. Now you've invested heavily into what are arguably our worst units.

 

Moirax Wardogs on the other hand, look to be very different... I don't think they'd ever be worth running with a Desecrator, but they look like VERY solid alternatives to the normal Wardog options. Two armed with Lightninglocks have a similar output to our twin Avenger Knight!

[Mushkilla]

The only redeeming feature of the auto cannon war dog is its ridiculous range and speed means they are pretty easy to keep alive and can draw line of sight behind terrain when run down the flank on the far side of a table. The flat 3 damage makes then quite good at character sniping in a pinch (I've had games where I've been able to exploit my opponents bad positioning to get a shot on a character). They were handy as an AA platform, but with chaos knights running double avengers, having access to ignore modifiers and trail of destructions re-rolling all hits (not just misses) I find we need them a lot less than our imperial cousins. Finally, their ridiculous range can also be used to sit on an objective/or deny deepstrike and still be able to target most of the table (in the later phases of the game when your chaff scoring units have been eliminated).

 

All that being said for 155pts the double lightninglock war dogs are a much more useful all-round shooting unit. Getting two ADDITIONAL hits on 6s, when you get 12 S6 Ap-2 shots is nasty. 

[MegaVolt87]

Those red corsairs, you would be better off ditching the rhino's and taking more bodies to bulk out the troops units. Rhino's don't seem worth it unless for berserkers or chosen. Regular CSM are better off foot slogging with a high model count. 

[Fhanados]

Thanks for the feedback guys! The main reason for the Rhinos is my most common opponent (actually, my only opponent for the past 6 months) fields Astra Militarum with a LOT of mortar teams. In a typical list he has 4-6 Infantry squads all with a Mortar, and 2/3 Heavy Weapon Squads with mortars backed up by 3 Wyverns. I don't have a whole lot of vehicles in general and find my infantry are crippled by the end of turn 2 and  gone turn 3. I plan on running bigger units of CSM with Chaincannons in my CSM focussed lists, but really in the Knight lists they're just there for the CP and scoot around to objectives, or to get in his face and melta his tanks.

 

He's recently invested in a few superheavies - some kind of baneblade variant and two Minotaurs. My Death Guard got pasted by the baneblade alone, I dread what the others are going to do to me! I'm going to be leaning heavily on my Knights to knock some wounds off them early on I think.

[Tokugawa]

 

 

 

 

 

- Wardogs are darn good. Better with Chaos imho than Warglaives. The strats are very good. I really like them with the Desecrator as well. (either type are great)

 

 

 

 

I couldn't disagree more with this. Wardogs, much like Armigers are generally useful only as a 'cheap' unit that can be used to fill out spaces in a detachment to reach a CP requirement. They simply don't have a great deal of impact in games, and this is fairly trivial to prove:

 

Given average rolls, a twin Autocannon Armiger will kill 3.8 GEQ a turn, 1.8 MEQ's or knock 4 wounds off a Rhino. It additionally has almost no melee ability whatsoever.

The other variety does perhaps slightly better, with even poorer average shooting than its counterpart, but it can kill 4.5 GEQ, 2.3 MEQ or take 4.4 wounds from a Rhino in CC.

 

Let's face it, let's be real, these units are a tax. Yes, that damage rating on the Autocannon looks lovely on paper, but in practice it does very little - maths doesn't play favourites or lie.

I think they get worse still if you're trying to take a group as a main component alongside the desecrator and its awful weapon loadout, and pretty minor buff. Now you've invested heavily into what are arguably our worst units.

 

Moirax Wardogs on the other hand, look to be very different... I don't think they'd ever be worth running with a Desecrator, but they look like VERY solid alternatives to the normal Wardog options. Two armed with Lightninglocks have a similar output to our twin Avenger Knight!

 

GEQ? If the designer gave you flat dmg3 cannon, and you use it firing against guardsmen...this army is not suitable for you.

[Mushkilla]

GEQ? If the designer gave you flat dmg3 cannon, and you use it firing against guardsmen...this army is not suitable for you.

That's not the point that Stray was making. If you don't need the extra range or access to sky reaper (quite handy for more re-rolls). Then the twin lightning locks war dog is cheaper and better than the autocannon war dog against all targets, not just GEQ.

[Mushkilla]

So whilst not being the biggest fan of the autocannon war dogs. I'm also not a fan of investing in forgeworld (even converting lightning locks, as if we look at how unkind this update has been to the older forgeworld knight models I doubt the current forgeworld war dogs will stay as they are, if they do I imagine the codex war dogs will see a price drop).

 

Anyway, I've had quite a good run, running a single infernal war dog (when I play 1500 PTS I only take two despoilers). Rolling randomly on the surge chart is good for them: T8 great, S8 D4 autocannon great, 16" move can a absolutely wreck a character if you can get into the right position for making him the closest model, but also great for getting line of sight on squishy targets with that 60" range. I find it either gets targeted first in an attempt to get first strike or completely ignored, when it gets ignored I often daemonic Surge in the last turn to dash for line breaker or an uncontrolled objective (17+d6 when advancing can get you places in a pinch). Finally, a first turn daemonic power on an autocannon with sky reaper protocols (now that it re-rolls all hits) can be pretty brutal (custodes jetbikes, storm ravens, mortarion etc), even more so if you use gaze of fate to re-roll one of the d3s if it's a 1 (I don't have any other random number of shot weapons in my list). So while by no means amazing, I find a single autocannon war dog does add a certain something (especially if like me you don't run any rapid fire battle cannons having at least some 60" shooting comes in handy).

[Aothaine]

I don't have the codex yet and I was wondering if someone could let me know how much the knight with the double gatling was. Trying to see if I can build a list with three of those and 1-2 Daemon princes. If you can't answer this question it is all good. I should have the codex no later than the 9th of next month. :D

 

 

Looking at running three of the knights with double gatling with 1-2 of the following below:

 

[HQ] Daemon Prince - 180 (PL 9)

- Malefic Talons, Hellforged Sword, Wings, Mark of Khorne

- Warlord Trait: Immense Power

- Relic: A'rgath, The King of Blades

 

[HQ] Daemon Prince - 180 (PL 9)

- Malefic Talons, Daemonic Axe, Wings, Mark of Khorne

- Relic: Skullreaver

 

[HQ] Daemon Prince - 180 (PL 9)

- Malefic Talons x2, Wings, Mark of Khorne

- Relic: The Crimson Crown

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Assuming it has a heavy stubber in the armpit mount and no carapace weapon, a despoiler with 2 avengers is 485 points.

[Aothaine]

Assuming it has a heavy stubber in the armpit mount and no carapace weapon, a despoiler with 2 avengers is 485 points.

 

Good lord! I can fit three Daemon princes into that list as well at 2k! Sweet! Thank you!

 

Anyone know if the despoiler box comes with two avenger gatling guns or will I have to goto a 3rd party for the second gun?

[Dr_Ruminahui]

There is no despoiler box - the new chaos knight is the desecrator / ravager, and it comes with no avengers.

 

Instead, you need to get the Imperial Knight Crusader and convert it, which comes with one avenger only.

[Excessus]

Though, hit up your local chaos guys. They might be having the hades ACs over from their forgefiends. :P

[Aothaine]

Jebus... so 3rd party it is.

Though, hit up your local chaos guys. They might be having the hades ACs over from their forgefiends.

 

That might work... do you know the size difference?

 

 

 

There is no despoiler box - the new chaos knight is the desecrator / ravager, and it comes with no avengers.

 

Instead, you need to get the Imperial Knight Crusader and convert it, which comes with one avenger only.

 

Hmmm I see a Knight Despoiler box in GW's site though

[Dr_Ruminahui]

The hades cannon and the avenger are very close to the same size - the hades is just a bit beefier.  Its used a lot in conversions - basically, any chaos knight with an avenger with skull tipped barrels is using the hades for the barrels. (see here - https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/cfyo2b/trying_to_get_enough_avenger_gatling_cannons_got/ - just a link I found via a google search).

 

The easiest way to do it (unless you magnitize it to have several options) is to convert the rapid fire battlecannon by replacing the barrels with the hades and the stubber with something to represent the heavy flamer.  You might also want to replace the avengers own barrels with the other hades (the forgefiend/maulerfiend comes with 2) so that both weapons' barrels match.

 

As for the chaos despoiler being on the GW website, turns out we are both wrong.  There is no "crusader" or "despoiler" box - they are both made out of the "Knight Preceptor - Canis Rex" or the "Imperial Knight Warden" boxes.  The avenger, imperial thunderstrike gauntlet and the various carapace weapons are all on 1 sprue, and only those 2 boxes contain that sprue.

 

The point still stands that it is they are loyalist machines and will need some conversion and/or a suitable paint job to make it into a chaos machine.

[Aothaine]

Fair enough. Looks like I'll be spending quite a bit of cash to get this idea up and running. Still, having three of those bad boys and 6 avenger gatling cannons on the field will be worth it I think. I'll be able to use my three Daemon Princes with them and just have six units on the board lol! Good lord. Looking forward to this!

[Excessus]

I'm planning to have the one Knight and two wardogs as allies for my CSM.

[MegaVolt87]

So, if I only take one knight I don't get the house rules but I can still be a dreadblade for pacts + damnations? Also if I take the Corrupted heirlooms and Tyrannical court strat I get a second relic and warlord strat seperate from my CSM detachments Warlord + relic for -2 CP? This is how I interpreted this. Also I assume the Despoiler points cost without the melee weapons is used if you are adding guns, not melee weapons for 2 gun builds, is that right? 

[Sgt. Blank]

So, if I only take one knight I don't get the house rules but I can still be a dreadblade for pacts + damnations? 

 

That's not how I read it - the Traitoris Ambition is contingent on all units in a detachment having the same ambition - so a Superheavy Auxiliary of 1 Knight would get it it. Dreadblade requires a battleforged army so it depends what else you take.

 

 

 Also if I take the Corrupted heirlooms and Tyrannical court strat I get a second relic and warlord strat seperate from my CSM detachments Warlord + relic for -2 CP? This is how I interpreted this. 

 

Yep. Although, you don't need the 2nd warlord for a second relic.

 

Also I assume the Despoiler points cost without the melee weapons is used if you are adding guns, not melee weapons for 2 gun builds, is that right? 

 

Yep, per the FAQ.

[MegaVolt87]

 

So, if I only take one knight I don't get the house rules but I can still be a dreadblade for pacts + damnations? 

 

That's not how I read it - the Traitoris Ambition is contingent on all units in a detachment having the same ambition - so a Superheavy Auxiliary of 1 Knight would get it it. Dreadblade requires a battleforged army so it depends what else you take.

 

 

 Also if I take the Corrupted heirlooms and Tyrannical court strat I get a second relic and warlord strat seperate from my CSM detachments Warlord + relic for -2 CP? This is how I interpreted this. 

 

Yep. Although, you don't need the 2nd warlord for a second relic.

 

Also I assume the Despoiler points cost without the melee weapons is used if you are adding guns, not melee weapons for 2 gun builds, is that right? 

 

Yep, per the FAQ.

 

 

Cheers, though I still think you can't pick a household for a single Knight in a Super Heavy Auxiliary detachment because- 

 

p62

 

ABILITIES

"If your army is Battle-forged, CHAOS KNIGHTS Detachments (excluding Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments) gain the following abilities:"

 

So as I read it, you have to be a Super heavy detachment with the three minimum required LoW (Knights) to have access to the Traitoris Lances and Traitoris Ambitions abilities. I pass the battle forged army requirement, but fail the Super Heavy detachment requirement because I am only taking one knight in an auxiliary detachment. Though that knight may be a dreadblade regardless of detachment. 

[Prot]

The Wardogs continue to be a good choice for me. Proof is in play. The proof is in the competitive results, not in math-hammer for me. Also the rerolls against flyers show you a great target for them. In my meta that silly Eldar Airshow is still a real thing. They do the work, and it's something the loyalist equivalent doesn't get.

 

More importantly I was more referring to the close combat variant. I find the re-rolls from strats and the melta lance + extra attacks on the charge/charged are just very decent. 

 

I continue to include them in my games, not as a tax but as a functional unit for a few reasons.

 

At the same time, while they've been seen in recent competitive tournaments on top tables, I'm not saying I'm married to the idea of them either. 

 

I tend to run lists that feature models I like.... and that sometimes presents its own challenges. I don't know of many (or really any) people running the Tyrant (Valiant) variant I do, but I just love the model and it draws tremendous firepower with the ability to prevent wounds on rolls of 1-3, it's just fun to play it.

 

Overall my Knight lists feature lots of Chaos... not Daemons though. So I try to keep enough 'fun units' in the list while retaining a good balance of CSM units for some board control.