Codex: Space Marines 2.0 speculation & discussion

[Sete]

 

 

 

Let's hope so. GW May get an unpleasant surprise sales wise if after two years of clamouring for chainswords we just get the primaris vanguard chamber we've already seen.

We've seen primaris vanguard?

Yeah the Scouts type lot.

Ah geez I was thinking vanguard veteran with jump packs and melee weapons, not the generic vanguard terminalogy

The time is now old man! :D

[Ishagu]

I wonder if the Vanguard band will persist. They might drop it in the next codex once the units are added to the standard Roster.

[Toxichobbit]

I don't think it will. While Vanguard, Extremis and Sancrosanct have stayed from the Stormcast release waves, that's different in that they're organisations within a Stormhost, so the equivalent of Companies within a Chapter. Where as the Vanguard moniker for Astartes isn't limited to a specific Company, and while the majority seem to be in the 10th, any Primaris can deploy in Phobos armour and be Vanguard.

 

Speaking of Phobos, that's their keyword, not Vanguard. And then we have the confusion of Vanguard Veterans who are not part of the Vanguard moniker. So I think the Vanguard moniker is just being used for them pre-Codex, during the Shadowspear release.

[Ishagu]

Yeah that's what I'm thinking as well.

[Lemondish]

I'm going to speculate that they will actually find a satisfactory niche for the assault and heavy versions of the Intercessor and Hellblaster weapons if only because I long to add a squad of heavy plasma incinerators to my collection.

 

Well, I will anyways - but better rules would definitely shoot that project to the top of my list.

[Ishagu]

There are lots of units that could be much better with a slight change or new strats to support them.

 

Redemptors shouldn't suffer a hit penalty when moving. Hellblasters and Inceptors need some strats, same with Repulsors. It's pretty wild that there are entire units that don't benefit from any strats - the things which the best armies in the game make use of to excell.

[redmapa]

Oh :cussing hell, its another week of Warcry.

[Captain Idaho]

Vanguard is the narrative really, whilst the unit is Phobos.

 

Redemptors? Same as all Marines Dreadnoughts... should be WS and BS2+! Venerables can have other bonuses etc.

 

Giant Dreadnoughts (as well as more diminutive types) should be dangerous.

[mel_danes]

On the Dreadnought front, we are using legacy stat and offensive structures in a new system. Like our power armored line trooper we under perform compared to newer, designed for the new system units.

I regularly face Armigers, Warglaive flavor.

If any of my Dreadnoughts were this scary I'd be over the moon.

To be clear as this thread is about a new codex I'm speaking strictly about units in said codex, of which all the wiz bang Forgeworld units are not. So please no Leviathan this Mortis Contemptor that.

 

To address some of the marines base issues we need stat and abilities updates. As others far more skilled at unit analysis than I have pointed out we are somewhat restricted in that capacity by other units. Primaris are not Custodes, regular Terminators are not BlightLords. If we bump are dudes up how does it affect units outside our book.

I am not putting all my hope eggs in the Angels Of Death basket. If the chaos codex is the roadmap for season 2 codex updates I'm hopeful we get some new toys, slight tweaks to existing units and no copy checking.

[Panzer]

But the Redemptor Dreadnought is a new unit as well and there's no reason why it should follow the Codex Dreadnought formular without invul etc instead of the Leviathan or Contemptor Dreadnought formular. Or something completely new even.

[mel_danes]

But the Redemptor Dreadnought is a new unit as well and there's no reason why it should follow the Codex Dreadnought formular without invul etc instead of the Leviathan or Contemptor Dreadnought formular. Or something completely new even.

Agreed. But they did not use that chance. So now we have what we have. Will they re-boot the Redemptor? I'd love it, but doubt they will.

[Ishagu]

Profiles do change between books do it's entirely possible for some units to be changed.

 

I still think Strats could make units useful even without altering the datasheet, for example imagine if you could teleport in a Redemptor Dreadnough 9" from an enemy unit and then charge 2D6+2. Suddenly becomes a serious threat.

[Panzer]

I still think Strats could make units useful even without altering the datasheet, for example imagine if you could teleport in a Redemptor Dreadnough 9" from an enemy unit and then charge 2D6+2. Suddenly becomes a serious threat.

That's certainly possible, but not a good approach. Units should be useful by default with Stratagems making them temporarily better depending on the situation.

[Ishagu]

I do agree with you completely but a lot of powerful units in the game at the moment are only so because of Strat support. Not all of course, but many.

 

I'm simply saying I would take this over no changes at all.

[MARK0SIAN]

Oh :cussing hell, its another week of Warcry.

GW do like to milk their releases, particularly AoS ones. The Idoneth one felt like it had been going on for longer than GW has existed.

 

On topic, I definitely think the codex dreads need some boosts. If an opponent ever puts down any non-FW dread my reaction is just a shrug whereas it should be ‘I need a serious plan to deal with that.’

 

They should all move and fire without penalty (and that goes for all marine vehicles apart from artillery) and they should be utterly immune to small arms fire. With the current wounds mechanic that isn’t possible so I would settle for some rule that made the odds of it much greater than they are. Specifically, That mechanic should be something that reduces the chances of a wound in the first place rather than a better chance of saving one.

[Lemondish]

I do agree with you completely but a lot of powerful units in the game at the moment are only so because of Strat support. Not all of course, but many.

 

I'm simply saying I would take this over no changes at all.

 

Exactly true. 

 

Renegade Knights (up until the Chaos Knights codex) is a fantastic example. Imperial Knights were meta boogeymen, but how competitive were the Renegade varieties? Not enough to pull top table victories, but still strong, capable units. The main difference was those special rules, stratagems, warlord traits...all separate from the unit rules entirely. 

 

We obviously don't want something that is so broken it turns into an auto-include, but extra tools that boost the capability of bubble units (by that I mean units on the bubble of being really good) would be a welcome sight. 

 

Now..the more important question is how we'll go about getting the CP to actually play with these stratagems...

[Captain Idaho]

I'd have them ALL T8 and 2+ save, WS and BS 2+ and let things like Ironclads be T9.

 

It won't even break the game since they're just not that powerful.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Leviathan and Contemptors are both valid unit recommendation, in spite of not being in the Codex. They look frigging awesome too.

[Lemondish]

I'd have them ALL T8 and 2+ save, WS and BS 2+ and let things like Ironclads be T9.

 

It won't even break the game since they're just not that powerful.

I'd personally rather they simply ignore the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons. I know it feels like it's identical - in both cases you'll be hitting on 3s while moving after all - but there's a key distinction.

 

When you're faced with the decision to stay put and hit on 2s or move and take a penalty you see a noticeable benefit for sitting put and firing from a static gunline. It promotes a single purpose build for the unit. I know everybody seems to take issue with multi-purpose units, but it's really a worthwhile endeavor if only the rules promoted it. Today, they do not.

 

However, if the unit always hit on 3s (target permitting) no matter if it moved or not, then you benefit from moving almost all the time...and a lot of these Dreads really should be moving. I think it's just a cleaner way to boost the Dread by encouraging a more aggressive, mobile style. I feel like it's a unit that really should be behaving aggressively, especially given the most iconic builds.

 

Totally agree on the T and Sv suggestions. Either that or they should drop a significant amount in price.

[Blindhamster]

The Leviathan and Contemptors are both valid unit recommendation, in spite of not being in the Codex. They look frigging awesome too.

They're still not accessible to anyone that doesn't have a debit card or is in reasonable distance of warhammer world/citadel. That being said plastic contemptors are a thing.

 

They do look cool and also do out perform other types though.

[Ishagu]

 

 

I'd have them ALL T8 and 2+ save, WS and BS 2+ and let things like Ironclads be T9.

 

It won't even break the game since they're just not that powerful.

I'd personally rather they simply ignore the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons. I know it feels like it's identical - in both cases you'll be hitting on 3s while moving after all - but there's a key distinction.

 

When you're faced with a decision is to stay put and hit on 2s or move and take a penalty you see a noticeable benefit for sitting put and firing from a static gunline. It promotes a single purpose build for the unit. I know everybody seems to take issue with multi-purpose units, but it's really a worthwhile endeavor if only the rules promoted it. Today, they do not.

 

However, if the unit always hit on 3s (target permitting) no matter if it moved or not, then you benefit from moving almost all the time...and a lot of these Dreads really should be moving. I think it's just a cleaner way to boost the Dread by encouraging a more aggressive, mobile style. I feel like it's a unit that really should be behaving aggressively, especially given the most iconic builds.

 

Totally agree on the T and Sv suggestions. Either that or they should drop a significant amount in price.

I very much agree. I don't want anything in the profile of weapons or units to encourage a model to stay still.

 

Toughness I'm not sure. Maybe 8 would be fine. I'd love an invul save on vehicles and Dreads.

[Toxichobbit]

I have't done a complete check, but didn't Chaos keep the same Legion Traits, Stratagems, Relics and Warlord Traits? And the only units that got new rules were Cultists (who got nerfed), completely new units and units that got a resculpt (Abaddon, Dark Apostle, Havocs etc). I think that's right, but I hope I'm wrong.

 

If that's the case then I fully expect Marines to get the same treatment, with GW "fixing" Marines using new releases, which would royally suck because even if some of the new units are meta-bending good (which they're not, at least based on Shadowspear rules) it doesn't fix the fundamental issues that Marines suffer from and shows an approach of "Fix your army by replacing your old models". It'd be the final nail in the coffin for my Marines.

 

I don't want to be right with this, but as a wise man once said hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

The Leviathan and Contemptors are both valid unit recommendation, in spite of not being in the Codex. They look frigging awesome too.

They're still not accessible to anyone that doesn't have a debit card or is in reasonable distance of warhammer world/citadel. That being said plastic contemptors are a thing.

 

They do look cool and also do out perform other types though.

Accessibility isn’t an excuse. If you can buy off amazon or sub to a twitch stream you can buy from Forge world and have the model shipped to your house from your own country (hence the point of fleecing non-Britons with the price hikes). People who don’t have debit cards are a fringe of a fringe in this hobby like people who don’t use Instagram and Facebook.

[Lemondish]

Toughness I'm not sure. Maybe 8 would be fine. I'd love an invul save on vehicles and Dreads.

I've long been a proponent of higher wound counts over invuln saves. Invulns tend to shift the preferred weapons to the 511 or 722 archetype rather than promoting proper weapon use. Invulns are great for exotic models where the design is to intentionally shift the preferred weapon type. But in lots of cases, melta and lascannons should be your preferred weapon, not high volume of lower strength shots. Invulns make it so those are not the most efficient weapon against heavy armour, and that's a crying shame, because they should be.

 

I'd personally love to see more FNP effects or higher wound counts in place of invulns, but invulns do the job even if the effect is not as desirable.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

The Leviathan and Contemptors are both valid unit recommendation, in spite of not being in the Codex. They look frigging awesome too.

They're still not accessible to anyone that doesn't have a debit card or is in reasonable distance of warhammer world/citadel. That being said plastic contemptors are a thing.

 

They do look cool and also do out perform other types though.

Lots of standard codex stuff is direct order only too and, whilst you can get that stuff delivered to a store, it’s highly likely that it was also paid for with a credit/debit card.

 

Not having a card to pay for something with is not a serious barrier to having a model as it affects so few people. I’d genuinely be amazed if there’s more than a few dozen people in any country who fund this hobby purely with physical cash spent in a store.