We're Gonna Get a Book!

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

No. You actually gain more by being Crimson Fists, who inexplicably can use everything in the book, whereas the parent chapter cannot use the Crimson Fist parts.

 

Boys in blue robbed us of two relics and two strats

 

 

Well we *are* the cool kids 

 

On reflection I feel that the book is rather dominated by something that is not in it - the Siegebreaker Cohort. There is almost no rational reason why a strat like Bolter Drill got worse and more expensive if you do not think how borderline broken it would have been with that specialist detachment and the other tweaks we got. I really hope some people prove me wrong but I suspect that Imperial fists lists will fall into two categories; Siegebreaker Cohort and fluffy lists.

 

Crimson Fists almost come out of it better because we can't use Siegebreaker Cohort and we got a few tweaks elsewhere to make for a wider range of interesting army builds - although if I am honest none of the ones I can think of are as obviously brutal as Siegebreaker Cohort.

[Mandragola]

 

 

No. You actually gain more by being Crimson Fists, who inexplicably can use everything in the book, whereas the parent chapter cannot use the Crimson Fist parts.

 

Boys in blue robbed us of two relics and two strats

 

 

Well we *are* the cool kids 

 

On reflection I feel that the book is rather dominated by something that is not in it - the Siegebreaker Cohort. There is almost no rational reason why a strat like Bolter Drill got worse and more expensive if you do not think how borderline broken it would have been with that specialist detachment and the other tweaks we got. I really hope some people prove me wrong but I suspect that Imperial fists lists will fall into two categories; Siegebreaker Cohort and fluffy lists.

 

Crimson Fists almost come out of it better because we can't use Siegebreaker Cohort and we got a few tweaks elsewhere to make for a wider range of interesting army builds - although if I am honest none of the ones I can think of are as obviously brutal as Siegebreaker Cohort.

 

 

I think it needs to be clarified whether Crimson Fists can have the Siegebreaker Cohort. My understanding is that they function as an Imperial Fists sucessor chapter, and I think that means they qualify, at least by current RAW. And it would be a bit odd if all Imperial Fists successors could be siegebreakers apart from Crimson Fists. But if they can do it, then I agree Crimson Fists are better - particularly since Centurions already ignore cover.

 

I'm also not sure whether the siegebreaker cohort is the only good option for Fists generally. It's an "all eggs in one basket" thing. Those Centurions are tough but not invincible in a meta designed to kill things like knights and IH. They do gain a lot by the fact that they're not vehicles, but they suffer somewhat from being slow and not very long-ranged, especially with the hurricane bolters.

 

Many, many other units benefit a lot from the Fists doctrines and traits. I really like the humble-ish Impulsor. 90 points buys one with all the stubbers. Its turret gun is almost as good as a stalker vs T7 planes, but it also flies, moves fast and has a load of dakka. This is just one example - there are quite a lot of others. Planes are clearly great with those twin assault cannons.

 

I'm really happy with Pedro. Reviewers (who to be fair probably don't play Crimson Fists) have missed how much better he got. Like all chapter masters his reroll bubble is better. He has a Primaris Captain's profile now, even though he technically hasn't been through the Rubicon, and he actually gives himself an extra attack on top of that. And he's got a 2+ save. But the really big change is to his aura. Now, rather than +1 attack to CF models within 6" he gives +1 attack to models in units within 6". This is a massive help to things like Intercessors, which don't have to hug him anything like as close.

 

For Imperial Fists Tor Garadon is still great. He hits like a truck and is very tough in his Gravis armour. He's an obvious choice to stand next to some Devastator Centurions, giving them 2+ BS and rerolls. It's a shame he can't be a chapter master, but the signum does kind of make up for that - at least partially.

 

Overall I think Fists players of all colours should be pretty happy with this release. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some successor combos that will really help too Tricks like Master Artisans and Stealthy are always good.

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

 

 

I think it needs to be clarified whether Crimson Fists can have the Siegebreaker Cohort. My understanding is that they function as an Imperial Fists sucessor chapter, and I think that means they qualify, at least by current RAW. And it would be a bit odd if all Imperial Fists successors could be siegebreakers apart from Crimson Fists. But if they can do it, then I agree Crimson Fists are better - particularly since Centurions already ignore cover.

 

I'm also not sure whether the siegebreaker cohort is the only good option for Fists generally. It's an "all eggs in one basket" thing. Those Centurions are tough but not invincible in a meta designed to kill things like knights and IH. They do gain a lot by the fact that they're not vehicles, but they suffer somewhat from being slow and not very long-ranged, especially with the hurricane bolters.

 

Many, many other units benefit a lot from the Fists doctrines and traits. I really like the humble-ish Impulsor. 90 points buys one with all the stubbers. Its turret gun is almost as good as a stalker vs T7 planes, but it also flies, moves fast and has a load of dakka. This is just one example - there are quite a lot of others. Planes are clearly great with those twin assault cannons.

 

I'm really happy with Pedro. Reviewers (who to be fair probably don't play Crimson Fists) have missed how much better he got. Like all chapter masters his reroll bubble is better. He has a Primaris Captain's profile now, even though he technically hasn't been through the Rubicon, and he actually gives himself an extra attack on top of that. And he's got a 2+ save. But the really big change is to his aura. Now, rather than +1 attack to CF models within 6" he gives +1 attack to models in units within 6". This is a massive help to things like Intercessors, which don't have to hug him anything like as close.

 

For Imperial Fists Tor Garadon is still great. He hits like a truck and is very tough in his Gravis armour. He's an obvious choice to stand next to some Devastator Centurions, giving them 2+ BS and rerolls. It's a shame he can't be a chapter master, but the signum does kind of make up for that - at least partially.

 

Overall I think Fists players of all colours should be pretty happy with this release. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some successor combos that will really help too Tricks like Master Artisans and Stealthy are always good.

 

 

For the record I don't think there is any more chance of successor chapters using specialist formations than they have of taking named characters. I think they are firmly locked to the named chapter.

 

I tend to agree on most of the other things you say - with the proviso that once you take Siegebreaker Cohort out of consideration I think successors will outperform the parent chapter and that this includes Crimson Fists. I would be happy to be proven wrong.

 

The think about my Crimson Fists is that Pedro got quietly better, much better. My only challenge is how to kitbash him to not look silly next to all my primaris marines - I do not like the look of mix and match different scale marines.

[Rizara]

like this is how.

I used the captains body, but without his cape. add the important and iconic aspects of Kantor, and then used the helm off the newest primaris (non Phobos) LT, as it had laurels on it.

[Happy-inquisitor]

Having had a little time to mull some of the stratagems over I am beginning so see new quirks and edge cases for some of them.

 

Close Range Bolter Fire - what I have not seen anyone mention is that everyone likely to use this also has a bolt pistol The shooting rules allow you to either shoot all pistol weapons or all non-pistol weapons in a phase. So you can essentially dual-pistol your bolt weapon with your bolt pistol. Also pistol weapons have no penalty for moving and shooting which is nice on Stalker Bolt Rifles, Sniper Rifles of all kinds and on Heavy Bolters.  How cool are your devastators going to be jumping out of a drop-pod firing their heavy bolters from the hip and their bolt pistols in their other hand! It's not only the new warsuit that can use pistol Heavy Bolters. You can of course use it while locked in combat which is still nice for clearing out a unit which otherwise might have something locked in combat that you want to release before the end of the shooting phase. For 1CP I think this is a stratagem I am quite likely to use a lot - either I am high on optimism or this one is being seriously under-rated by people.

 

The Shield Unwavering - in addition to its obvious use on an objective camping squad this could be a neat little power-up for a beatstick character. If your opponent tries charging your troops heroically intervene in with a beatstick who is just that bit better in both offence and defence. Expensive but if you are swinging a nasty enough weapon maybe worth it.

 

Clearance protocols - as I mentioned earlier the main use i could find for this would be on Reivers to shut down overwatch on a whole section of an infantry gunline. Also krak grenades have a real niche role vs T5 multi-wound targets. 

 

Bolster Defences - combo with the Shield Unwavering for a plain silly save Super-expensive combo but i sometimes like combos that leave an opponent scratching their heads how to deal with it - that is brain power they are spending on what I wanted them to spend brain power on. 

[TheBigAristotle]

https://www.goonhammer.com/codex-supplement-imperial-fists-the-goonhammer-review/

 

I can't wait to run my Chaplain Dreadnought as a warlord, he's gonna be unkillable and very killy

[Utter Polux]

The main issue with the supplement is all the building rules thrown in. Fluffy...maybe. Useful...no!

 

One or two you could deal with but to have special rules, strategems and psychic abilities all having reference to buildings...it's way too much.

 

I think what's got me down more than anything is that the units that do well with this supplement weren't units I wanted to take...but that's no downer on the supplement itself which does have some strength in it.

 

After all...Crims might do quite well.

[Lemondish]

I don't think I've ever been in a situation where a Reiver squad was within range of two different targets to grenade, so I'm really not sure that will happen often. Does the Stratagem change any of the range issues grenades have?

 

Still pretty miffed about Crimson Fists getting much more out of this supplement right after I began building the parent Chapter instead lol

[Montford]

I want to take a squad of 10 Tactical Marines just to be able to throw 10 frag grenades at some horde 

[Hellebras]

The bolters would be considerably more effective, unfortunately.

[Ancient Glory]

 

 

 

No. You actually gain more by being Crimson Fists, who inexplicably can use everything in the book, whereas the parent chapter cannot use the Crimson Fist parts.

 

Boys in blue robbed us of two relics and two strats

 

 

Well we *are* the cool kids 

 

On reflection I feel that the book is rather dominated by something that is not in it - the Siegebreaker Cohort. There is almost no rational reason why a strat like Bolter Drill got worse and more expensive if you do not think how borderline broken it would have been with that specialist detachment and the other tweaks we got. I really hope some people prove me wrong but I suspect that Imperial fists lists will fall into two categories; Siegebreaker Cohort and fluffy lists.

 

Crimson Fists almost come out of it better because we can't use Siegebreaker Cohort and we got a few tweaks elsewhere to make for a wider range of interesting army builds - although if I am honest none of the ones I can think of are as obviously brutal as Siegebreaker Cohort.

 

 

I think it needs to be clarified whether Crimson Fists can have the Siegebreaker Cohort. My understanding is that they function as an Imperial Fists sucessor chapter, and I think that means they qualify, at least by current RAW. And it would be a bit odd if all Imperial Fists successors could be siegebreakers apart from Crimson Fists. But if they can do it, then I agree Crimson Fists are better - particularly since Centurions already ignore cover.

 

I'm also not sure whether the siegebreaker cohort is the only good option for Fists generally. It's an "all eggs in one basket" thing. Those Centurions are tough but not invincible in a meta designed to kill things like knights and IH. They do gain a lot by the fact that they're not vehicles, but they suffer somewhat from being slow and not very long-ranged, especially with the hurricane bolters.

 

Many, many other units benefit a lot from the Fists doctrines and traits. I really like the humble-ish Impulsor. 90 points buys one with all the stubbers. Its turret gun is almost as good as a stalker vs T7 planes, but it also flies, moves fast and has a load of dakka. This is just one example - there are quite a lot of others. Planes are clearly great with those twin assault cannons.

 

I'm really happy with Pedro. Reviewers (who to be fair probably don't play Crimson Fists) have missed how much better he got. Like all chapter masters his reroll bubble is better. He has a Primaris Captain's profile now, even though he technically hasn't been through the Rubicon, and he actually gives himself an extra attack on top of that. And he's got a 2+ save. But the really big change is to his aura. Now, rather than +1 attack to CF models within 6" he gives +1 attack to models in units within 6". This is a massive help to things like Intercessors, which don't have to hug him anything like as close.

 

For Imperial Fists Tor Garadon is still great. He hits like a truck and is very tough in his Gravis armour. He's an obvious choice to stand next to some Devastator Centurions, giving them 2+ BS and rerolls. It's a shame he can't be a chapter master, but the signum does kind of make up for that - at least partially.

 

Overall I think Fists players of all colours should be pretty happy with this release. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some successor combos that will really help too Tricks like Master Artisans and Stealthy are always good.

 

 

No-one but Imperial Fists can access the Siegebreaker Cohort. It's not an IMPERIAL FISTS stratagem, it's a SPECIALIST DETACHMENT stratagem, which IMPERIAL FISTS detachments can access. It's a bit convoluted but the RAW seems clear.

 

I would, obviously, love to be wrong about this so my boys in blue can access it.

[Utter Polux]

I think I actually prefer the liberator detachment...I need more time to think about my crims because right now I’m seeing the way IF need to play and I’m making the mistake of thinking that’s the only way Crims can be competitive...I hope it’s a mistake anyway.

 

What I would really like is a way to use the Garadon model as a way to convert a new Gravis captain. But I wouldn’t be able to give a Gravis captain a single Crimson relic would I?

 

If only Gravis Armour had been on the list of specialty war gear...then you just give a captain Gravis Armour.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Utter Polux

[Mandragola]

Here's my current WIP attempt at Pedro. He's based on Calgar with the power fist from a Dark Vengeance Terminator. I've got the shape sorted and all the bits, but need to do quite a bit of Green Stuff work now. All those Ultramarine symbols need to become gems or something.

 

I'm not sure if it makes sense to use Gravis. I thought about using the normal captain and that could have worked. I've actually got a standard captain spare now so I have the option of trying it.

 

 

The Liberator detachment is quite interesting. It doesn't eat many CPs up at the start of the game, which is nice. Great for a list with lots of hellblasters in Impulsors, maybe.

 

 

Having had a little time to mull some of the stratagems over I am beginning so see new quirks and edge cases for some of them.

 

Close Range Bolter Fire - what I have not seen anyone mention is that everyone likely to use this also has a bolt pistol The shooting rules allow you to either shoot all pistol weapons or all non-pistol weapons in a phase. So you can essentially dual-pistol your bolt weapon with your bolt pistol. Also pistol weapons have no penalty for moving and shooting which is nice on Stalker Bolt Rifles, Sniper Rifles of all kinds and on Heavy Bolters.  How cool are your devastators going to be jumping out of a drop-pod firing their heavy bolters from the hip and their bolt pistols in their other hand! It's not only the new warsuit that can use pistol Heavy Bolters. You can of course use it while locked in combat which is still nice for clearing out a unit which otherwise might have something locked in combat that you want to release before the end of the shooting phase. For 1CP I think this is a stratagem I am quite likely to use a lot - either I am high on optimism or this one is being seriously under-rated by people.

 

The Shield Unwavering - in addition to its obvious use on an objective camping squad this could be a neat little power-up for a beatstick character. If your opponent tries charging your troops heroically intervene in with a beatstick who is just that bit better in both offence and defence. Expensive but if you are swinging a nasty enough weapon maybe worth it.

 

Clearance protocols - as I mentioned earlier the main use i could find for this would be on Reivers to shut down overwatch on a whole section of an infantry gunline. Also krak grenades have a real niche role vs T5 multi-wound targets. 

 

Bolster Defences - combo with the Shield Unwavering for a plain silly save Super-expensive combo but i sometimes like combos that leave an opponent scratching their heads how to deal with it - that is brain power they are spending on what I wanted them to spend brain power on. 

 

This is great analysis. I hadn't thought about how the bolters-as-pistols interacts with having another pistol. I'd basically been thinking of it as a CC option for Devastator Centurions - which it is.

 

Reivers actually benefit a lot from this. A unit of 10 dropping in cost 180 points and would chuck out 30 shots, at least 10 of which would be at ap-1. That's obviously still not as good as what Inceptors can do for cheaper and no CPs, but it does put 10 bodies on the ground in the enemy deployment zone. 

 

The rest of the time you're basically paying a CP to fire your pistols. That could still be worth it at times - say if a horde is coming at you.

 

There seem to be a lot of strats that really benefit large squads. That's not ideal for my Crimson Fists, but it's not dreadful. In my experience 10-man squads are pretty rare outside of Guard armies. Instead, you see either MSU units or big blobs of 20+. As such, the disadvantage of going from 5 guys to 10 is less than you'd think.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Mandragola

[Logiter]

Also, isn’t CRBF 2 cp, not 1?

[Mandragola]

It is; yes. 1 did feel too few.

 

It’s not worth it for a few pistol shots or marginally more accuracy for stalkers. That Reiver plan goes in the bin where it belongs.

[Happy-inquisitor]

Also, isn’t CRBF 2 cp, not 1?

 

Yes I went and read the Goonhammer review that someone linked to and apparently it is.

 

To put that into context it is the same CP cost as Boltstorm and on auto bolt rifles the CRBF is mathematically slightly better - getting a lot better if you have any rerolls to hit. If you are in tactical doctrine it is probably a bad idea to lose the -1ap but if you are in assault doctrine the reverse applies and you would also gain the doctrine benefit with the CRBF. 

[BitsHammer]

 

Also, isn’t CRBF 2 cp, not 1?

 

Yes I went and read the Goonhammer review that someone linked to and apparently it is.

 

To put that into context it is the same CP cost as Boltstorm and on auto bolt rifles the CRBF is mathematically slightly better - getting a lot better if you have any rerolls to hit. If you are in tactical doctrine it is probably a bad idea to lose the -1ap but if you are in assault doctrine the reverse applies and you would also gain the doctrine benefit with the CRBF. 

 

It really makes running a squad or two of ABR really appealing. Sure, you're more likely do a single wound onto vehicles with the stalkers, but I prefer mobility and increased odds of stacking extra hits for my Intercessors.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Fulkes

[Happy-inquisitor]

It is; yes. 1 did feel too few.

 

It’s not worth it for a few pistol shots or marginally more accuracy for stalkers. That Reiver plan goes in the bin where it belongs.

 

The problem with any Reiver plan is the Reiver part of it :(

 

In assault doctrine that strat has quite a lot of value. It also has utility in a number of situations but especially when an opponent tries to get cute and 3-point your squad or use a special rule to prevent you falling back. The fact that you get your bolt pistols and your bolt rifles (of whatever kind) in that situation makes it valuable. Probably not worth the cost on rapid-fire weapons but on Heavy and Assault bolter weapons it has enough niche uses that it will be one of the stratagems I make a point of remembering I have.

[Mandragola]

I think the key point is that this is a decent strat if you get 3-pointed, especially for stuff like aggressors and centurions, but unlikely to be worth the CP cost otherwise.

 

It could even mean you choose to shoot rather than fall back even if you are able to. That’s very thematic for the army.

[Utter Polux]

If I’m running Pedro and have enough infantry on the board, I’m not bothered about stopping several charges. So for Crims I don’t see a need for Reiver grenades.

 

I have heard lots of people describe IF as the boring ones. After looking over all the options it’s interesting to see how at odds I am about a decision as simple as the bolt gun I want to equip intercessors with. Assault gives me all the dakka and exploding 6’s. Standard gives me range as well as a some dakka and exploding 6’s with ap -1. Stalker is giving much less dakka but D3 vs vehicles and -3 ap. There are perfectly good reasons for IF/CF to take any of those where as other armies are very often pointed in the direction of one competitive choice. So who’s the boring army? Who has a more complex build choice?

 

I can’t deny myself some Stalker Bolt rifles. I just have to have at least one or two 5 man squads. Range gives them backfield validity. Damage is awesome. Wounding T7 vehicles on 5’s isn’t ideal but for every one that goes through it’s -3 and flat 3 making them as consistent as lascannons when comparing damage caused. A single strat makes them better than auto cannons.

 

It is the choice between assault or standard bolt rifle where I can’t make up my mind. Which do people feel is the better choice for Crims? Assault gives you more movement which is good if you are moving out for objectives. But I prefer the -1 on the standard bolt rifle. Or do you go for Infiltrators instead of auto bolt rifles?

[NatBrannigan]

I’ve really been enjoying playing around with lists knowing what’s in the Supplement. Not much has changed from when the Codex dropped really, but some of the options look really fun. Little things like giving a Sgt a mini relic I like, not sure if other Supplements give that option but it’s still fun.

 

I know the Fists supplement isn’t as powerful as others, but lets not forget the codex itself has been a huge recent boost. I also think the remove cover part of the chapter tactic is superb anyway. Lets just hope buildings get some rules in PA and become must takes, then we can just smile smugly.

 

I know it was never rumoured or likely and there’s no precedence, but the big miss for me (from when I saw the Psychic Discipline was called “Geokinesis” kinesis) was a power allowing you to make a little crater or pseudo ruin. Ah well. Loved the idea of making cover for an advance or even putting your opponents units in cover then blasting them with the appropriate power (forget what it’s called).

[Logiter]

It’s a nasty little surprise when a vanguard sgt can pop out 5 powerfist attacks with penalty to hit!

 

I think giving a sgt a relic is one of my favourite things. Will it happen every time? Nah. Cool as heck when I do? You know it!

[Boldthreat]

If I’m running Pedro and have enough infantry on the board, I’m not bothered about stopping several charges. So for Crims I don’t see a need for Reiver grenades.

 

I have heard lots of people describe IF as the boring ones. After looking over all the options it’s interesting to see how at odds I am about a decision as simple as the bolt gun I want to equip intercessors with. Assault gives me all the dakka and exploding 6’s. Standard gives me range as well as a some dakka and exploding 6’s with ap -1. Stalker is giving much less dakka but D3 vs vehicles and -3 ap. There are perfectly good reasons for IF/CF to take any of those where as other armies are very often pointed in the direction of one competitive choice. So who’s the boring army? Who has a more complex build choice?

 

I can’t deny myself some Stalker Bolt rifles. I just have to have at least one or two 5 man squads. Range gives them backfield validity. Damage is awesome. Wounding T7 vehicles on 5’s isn’t ideal but for every one that goes through it’s -3 and flat 3 making them as consistent as lascannons when comparing damage caused. A single strat makes them better than auto cannons.

 

It is the choice between assault or standard bolt rifle where I can’t make up my mind. Which do people feel is the better choice for Crims? Assault gives you more movement which is good if you are moving out for objectives. But I prefer the -1 on the standard bolt rifle. Or do you go for Infiltrators instead of auto bolt rifles?

I’m going back and forth myself. Honestly though, I think the Stalkers are still staying home, for now. I may build an all infantry army then that would change. So for me, the choice is between autos and the standard variety. In short both lol, favoring the auto.

 

As great as bolt weaponry is. I find it important that we don’t forgo the other options. I think Suppressors are a hit. They can do a bit of everything and are only 5 points more expensive then Stalker Intercessors. You get more range and native mobility. The gun is heavy so benefits from the super doctrine as well. Hellblasters too can’t be forgotten. I still feel the rapid fire version of them is best.

 

Here is a 1500 pt list I’m throwing around. 8cp, battalion.

 

Primaris Captain with plasma pistol/power fist

Primaris LT auto

 

3x Aggressors boltstorm gauntlets

 

5x Intercessors with autos

5x Intercessors with autos

5x Intercessors with bolt rifles

 

3x Suppressors

3x Suppressors

 

5x Hellblasters with plasma incinerators

 

Repulsor with HOGC, twin las, icarus rocket pod

Repulsor with HOGC, twin las, icarus rocket pod

 

I feel it’s a nice list with options. A Repulsor with a Intercessor squad and a Hellblaster squad has always worked well for me. Aggressors, Captain and a Lt in the other only got better this edition. And the foot slogging autos can move and shoot with considerable power, strategems giving them a small boost when they get where they are going. The Suppressors can support the autos or help the armored assault.

 

I feel relatively equipped to handle vehicles. What’s nice about our supplement, is I don’t feel as pressured to pick the Repulsor Executioner over the Regular. I feel I can make up that difference a bit more with the models I already have. And with the Hellblasters and Suppressors, I’m a bit better off with the heavier stuff that isn’t vehicles.

 

But I’m not a pro. I like to try and balance my army. With our supplement, I feel we get a nice flow that Should see me enjoy every stage/doctrine of my armored assault. If i can pull it off lol.

[Gree]

I am wondering if it would be worth it to build a Smash Captain with the Fist of Terra rather than a Thunder Hammer. Other than the fixed 3 damage, it seems like the Fist is superior is every other way.

[jeremy1391]

I am wondering if it would be worth it to build a Smash Captain with the Fist of Terra rather than a Thunder Hammer. Other than the fixed 3 damage, it seems like the Fist is superior is every other way.

Jump captain with the fist of Terra, imperium sword and the +1 to wound vehicles warlord trait will be wounding knights on 2’s!