We're Gonna Get a Book!

[Utter Polux]

I’m going all infantry! I’m super bad at writing off models I don’t like the look of. So no repulsors. I will take all infantry supported by two redemptors.

 

I’m taking suppressors, stalker bolt rifles and heavy plasma. Bit of everything. Pedro too...got a conversion idea for him I’m looking forward to trying.

 

Possibly no librarian. Chaplain, Lt and Pedro. Trying for a brigade.

[Happy-inquisitor]

I’m going all infantry! I’m super bad at writing off models I don’t like the look of. So no repulsors. I will take all infantry supported by two redemptors.

 

I’m taking suppressors, stalker bolt rifles and heavy plasma. Bit of everything. Pedro too...got a conversion idea for him I’m looking forward to trying.

 

Possibly no librarian. Chaplain, Lt and Pedro. Trying for a brigade.

 

I am thinking much the same with a mix of assault and stalker bolt rifles. Although I really do fancy a chaplain dreadnought because that would be really boss and it would give my army a little bit of a centerpiece model. I am also struggling to fit a librarian into my 1750 list.

[Gree]

 

I am wondering if it would be worth it to build a Smash Captain with the Fist of Terra rather than a Thunder Hammer. Other than the fixed 3 damage, it seems like the Fist is superior is every other way.

Jump captain with the fist of Terra, imperium sword and the +1 to wound vehicles warlord trait will be wounding knights on 2’s!

 

 

Thanks for the advice, but I really don't face Knights in my local meta.

[Utter Polux]

 

 

I’m going all infantry! I’m super bad at writing off models I don’t like the look of. So no repulsors. I will take all infantry supported by two redemptors.

 

I’m taking suppressors, stalker bolt rifles and heavy plasma. Bit of everything. Pedro too...got a conversion idea for him I’m looking forward to trying.

 

Possibly no librarian. Chaplain, Lt and Pedro. Trying for a brigade.

I am thinking much the same with a mix of assault and stalker bolt rifles. Although I really do fancy a chaplain dreadnought because that would be really boss and it would give my army a little bit of a centerpiece model. I am also struggling to fit a librarian into my 1750 list.

Blimey I’m struggling to fit a librarian into 2000 points lol

[jeremy1391]

 

 

 

I am wondering if it would be worth it to build a Smash Captain with the Fist of Terra rather than a Thunder Hammer. Other than the fixed 3 damage, it seems like the Fist is superior is every other way.

Jump captain with the fist of Terra, imperium sword and the +1 to wound vehicles warlord trait will be wounding knights on 2’s!

Thanks for the advice, but I really don't face Knights in my local meta.

Well it will be wounding any vehicles on a 2+ lol

[BitsHammer]

So dumbest/funniest combo I've noticed is using a full unit of Intercessors with ABR, use close range bolter drill and the ABRs autohit strat for up to 30 S4 hits that hit automatically. It's 4CP, but you basically double the amount of models you can kill in a turn.

[Happy-inquisitor]

So dumbest/funniest combo I've noticed is using a full unit of Intercessors with ABR, use close range bolter drill and the ABRs autohit strat for up to 30 S4 hits that hit automatically. It's 4CP, but you basically double the amount of models you can kill in a turn.

 

If we are looking at the silliest wombo combo

 

10 Intercessors with bolt rifles. Chapter Master standing nearby.

 

Rapid Fire strat. Heroes of Rynn's world Strat. Bolter Drill strat. Catch a +1 to hit from a litany or from shooting at 20+ models in a unit. Reroll everything that is not a 6. Average just over 70 hits.  Still not worth 5CP but quite funny.

[Utter Polux]

I’m defo back on the Crimson band wagon...and here’s me thinking I was going to have to start painting loads of yellow!

[Rodrick]

Invictor suits seems powerful for the points, fairly cheap, 6 shots s7 ap2 3d .

Heavy bolter, heavy stubber.

[Mandragola]

Invictor suits seems powerful for the points, fairly cheap, 6 shots s7 ap2 3d .

Heavy bolter, heavy stubber.

 

Agreed, and a really useful threatening unit if you're going first as well. I think these things are great.

 

That said, we've got a lot of good options to be honest. It's not going to be easy to pick.

[Rodrick]

 

 

Invictor suits seems powerful for the points, fairly cheap, 6 shots s7 ap2 3d .

Heavy bolter, heavy stubber.

Agreed, and a really useful threatening unit if you're going first as well. I think these things are great.

 

That said, we've got a lot of good options to be honest. It's not going to be easy to pick.

Yeah I was looking for some long range support , like whirlwind, preds, devs squad, the thing is , invictors can punch to death almost anything in the game

[Utter Polux]

I like invictors but I have two redemptors on the shelf so I’m sort of against buying something similar. I wonder if Primaris are ever going to get the flyer that was rumoured. Because that would be interesting.

[Mandragola]

Invictors seem able to provide decent ranged support. You’d never take a predator instead for Fists as an invictor is strictly better, for less points, even simply as a shooting platform.

 

This is why I think I prefer it with autocannon rather than the flamer. There are games where you’ll want your invictors pushing up the field but i think some of the time you’ll want to stand back and shoot. Having them in your lines able to counter-charge could be a lot more valuable than throwing them at a wall of plaguebearers.

 

I’m going to try and magnetise mine anyway. Annoyingly, it’s not as easy to do as the redemptor, as it only comes with one of the piece to connect the gun to the arm. Should still be possible though, with a little work.

[BitsHammer]

Alright, I did some number crunching over on Dakka, so I felt I should share it here:

 

Premise is the best anti-tank option for a unit of Devastators as they have the widest heavy weapon selection. Each unit (5 models, 4 with heavy weapons, no additional buffs outside of the Devastator doctrine) are shooting at a T8, 3+ vehicle (the math is the same against T6, and T7 due to how wounding works):

 

4 Heavy Bolters: 2.67 dmg

4 Plasma Cannons: 8 dmg

4 Lascannons: 7.22 dmg

 

I've argued about it before, but here you go: Heavy Bolters are not a good option if you want to shoot at tanks. Take some real anti-tank punch in your list!

 

EDIT: More math, this time looking at Primaris bolt rifle choices!

Against MEQ (ABR/BR in Tactical, Stalker in Heavy Doctrine no move penalty): 
ABR: 6.25 
BR (outside of RF): 2.78 
BR (inside of RF): 5.56 
Stalkers: 3.47 

Against Primaris (ABR/BR in Tactical, Stalker in Heavy Doctrine): 
ABR: 2.88 
BR (outside of RF): 1.14 
BR (inside of RF): 2.53 
Stalkers: 3.47 

And you know what, I was wrong. Against MEQ they (Stalkers) are better. What about GEQ? 
Against GEQ (ABR/BR in Tactical, Stalker in Heavy Doctrine no move penalty): 
ABR: 13.89 
BR (outside of RF): 5.56 
BR (inside of RF): 11.11 
Stalkers: 5.56 

So definitely worse against anything with worse saves than MEQ. 

So what this has shown me, other than the BR being the most middle of the road/swingy choice, you want a mix of ABR and Stalkers if you want a TAC list.

[DesSaboteur]

Alright, I did some number crunching over on Dakka, so I felt I should share it here:

 

Premise is the best anti-tank option for a unit of Devastators as they have the widest heavy weapon selection. Each unit (5 models, 4 with heavy weapons, no additional buffs outside of the Devastator doctrine) are shooting at a T8, 3+ vehicle (the math is the same against T6, and T7 due to how wounding works):

 

4 Heavy Bolters: 2.67 dmg

4 Plasma Cannons: 8 dmg

4 Lascannons: 7.22 dmg

 

I've argued about it before, but here you go: Heavy Bolters are not a good option if you want to shoot at tanks. Take some real anti-tank punch in your list!

 

EDIT: More math, this time looking at Primaris bolt rifle choices!

Against MEQ (ABR/BR in Tactical, Stalker in Heavy Doctrine no move penalty): 

ABR: 6.25 

BR (outside of RF): 2.78 

BR (inside of RF): 5.56 

Stalkers: 3.47 

 

Against Primaris (ABR/BR in Tactical, Stalker in Heavy Doctrine): 

ABR: 2.88 

BR (outside of RF): 1.14 

BR (inside of RF): 2.53 

Stalkers: 3.47 

 

And you know what, I was wrong. Against MEQ they (Stalkers) are better. What about GEQ? 

Against GEQ (ABR/BR in Tactical, Stalker in Heavy Doctrine no move penalty): 

ABR: 13.89 

BR (outside of RF): 5.56 

BR (inside of RF): 11.11 

Stalkers: 5.56 

 

So definitely worse against anything with worse saves than MEQ. 

 

So what this has shown me, other than the BR being the most middle of the road/swingy choice, you want a mix of ABR and Stalkers if you want a TAC list.

 

Can you please expand on your heavy weapons numbers, i can not duplicate them.

 

Looking on the criteria you set up

 

4 Heavy bolters = 8 hits +2 for IF Tactic. 10 hits against T8 = 3.3 Wounds = 2.178 wounds against 3+ with AP-2 = 4.36 Damage (4 Damage in reality). Dev Squad cost 170 = 42.5 points per wound

 

4 Plasma Cannons = 2.64 hits = 0.87 wounds = 0.87 wounds against 3+ with AP -5 = 2.60 Damage (3 Damage in reality). Dev Squad cost 194 = 64.6 points per wound

 

4 Lascannons = 2.64 hits = 1.74 wounds = 1.74 wounds against 3+ with AP-4 = 7.84 Damage (8 in reality). Dev Squad cost 230 = 28.75 points per wound

[BitsHammer]

 

Alright, I did some number crunching over on Dakka, so I felt I should share it here:

 

Premise is the best anti-tank option for a unit of Devastators as they have the widest heavy weapon selection. Each unit (5 models, 4 with heavy weapons, no additional buffs outside of the Devastator doctrine) are shooting at a T8, 3+ vehicle (the math is the same against T6, and T7 due to how wounding works):

 

4 Heavy Bolters: 2.67 dmg

4 Plasma Cannons: 8 dmg

4 Lascannons: 7.22 dmg

 

I've argued about it before, but here you go: Heavy Bolters are not a good option if you want to shoot at tanks. Take some real anti-tank punch in your list!

 

EDIT: More math, this time looking at Primaris bolt rifle choices!

Against MEQ (ABR/BR in Tactical, Stalker in Heavy Doctrine no move penalty): 

ABR: 6.25 

BR (outside of RF): 2.78 

BR (inside of RF): 5.56 

Stalkers: 3.47 

 

Against Primaris (ABR/BR in Tactical, Stalker in Heavy Doctrine): 

ABR: 2.88 

BR (outside of RF): 1.14 

BR (inside of RF): 2.53 

Stalkers: 3.47 

 

And you know what, I was wrong. Against MEQ they (Stalkers) are better. What about GEQ? 

Against GEQ (ABR/BR in Tactical, Stalker in Heavy Doctrine no move penalty): 

ABR: 13.89 

BR (outside of RF): 5.56 

BR (inside of RF): 11.11 

Stalkers: 5.56 

 

So definitely worse against anything with worse saves than MEQ. 

 

So what this has shown me, other than the BR being the most middle of the road/swingy choice, you want a mix of ABR and Stalkers if you want a TAC list.

 

Can you please expand on your heavy weapons numbers, i can not duplicate them.

 

Looking on the criteria you set up

 

4 Heavy bolters = 8 hits +2 for IF Tactic. 10 hits against T8 = 3.3 Wounds = 2.178 wounds against 3+ with AP-2 = 4.36 Damage (4 Damage in reality). Dev Squad cost 170 = 42.5 points per wound

 

4 Plasma Cannons = 2.64 hits = 0.87 wounds = 0.87 wounds against 3+ with AP -5 = 2.60 Damage (3 Damage in reality). Dev Squad cost 194 = 64.6 points per wound

 

4 Lascannons = 2.64 hits = 1.74 wounds = 1.74 wounds against 3+ with AP-4 = 7.84 Damage (8 in reality). Dev Squad cost 230 = 28.75 points per wound

 

I plugged the weapon stats numbers into a combat calculator. I could hand crunch things but that takes a while, so I went with using a tool instead.

 

Okay, Veruses a Knight (just one weapon, but full shooting profile): 

 

HB: 1.11 dmg 

Lascannon: 2.04 dmg (1.04 average + 1 for doctrine bonus) 

Plasma Cannon:0.59 dmg

Plasma Cannon OC: 1.33 dmg

 

Yeah, still not sold on the HB unless you're fighting a Knight army and have nothing else to point it at. 

 

It just averages worse against vehicles than other weapons. Can it do some work with luck and saturation? Sure. Should you build a list around that? I don't think so.

[Rodrick]

Infiltrators seem awesome, 6s to hit are double and auto wound! Entering by deepstrike with tactical doctrine looks solid

[DesSaboteur]

 

I plugged the weapon stats numbers into a combat calculator. I could hand crunch things but that takes a while, so I went with using a tool instead.

 

Okay, Veruses a Knight (just one weapon, but full shooting profile): 

 

HB: 1.11 dmg 

Lascannon: 2.04 dmg (1.04 average + 1 for doctrine bonus) 

Plasma Cannon:0.59 dmg

Plasma Cannon OC: 1.33 dmg

 

Yeah, still not sold on the HB unless you're fighting a Knight army and have nothing else to point it at. 

 

It just averages worse against vehicles than other weapons. Can it do some work with luck and saturation? Sure. Should you build a list around that? I don't think so.

 

 

Those numbers look to be more on point. The main reason i am on board with the heavy bolter spam is that it can also be used for its ant-infantry as well. If im loaded with big anti-tank weapons and i meet a hoard army, then i am screwed. But if i am loaded up with heavy bolters and i meet some big vehicles i can still manage. 

 

I have started using Dev squads with 1 lascannon which receives the signum and 3 heavy bolters. I thinks this brings a good balance of weapons and firepower.

[BitsHammer]

 

 

I plugged the weapon stats numbers into a combat calculator. I could hand crunch things but that takes a while, so I went with using a tool instead.

 

Okay, Veruses a Knight (just one weapon, but full shooting profile): 

 

HB: 1.11 dmg 

Lascannon: 2.04 dmg (1.04 average + 1 for doctrine bonus) 

Plasma Cannon:0.59 dmg

Plasma Cannon OC: 1.33 dmg

 

Yeah, still not sold on the HB unless you're fighting a Knight army and have nothing else to point it at. 

 

It just averages worse against vehicles than other weapons. Can it do some work with luck and saturation? Sure. Should you build a list around that? I don't think so.

 

 

Those numbers look to be more on point. The main reason i am on board with the heavy bolter spam is that it can also be used for its ant-infantry as well. If im loaded with big anti-tank weapons and i meet a hoard army, then i am screwed. But if i am loaded up with heavy bolters and i meet some big vehicles i can still manage. 

 

I have started using Dev squads with 1 lascannon which receives the signum and 3 heavy bolters. I thinks this brings a good balance of weapons and firepower.

 

I'd honestly mix and match stuff in the army. HB aren't bad, but if you only bring HB and end up against something like Knights you're just kneecaping yourself.

[NatBrannigan]

Infiltrators seem awesome, 6s to hit are double and auto wound! Entering by deepstrike with tactical doctrine looks solid

Sorry Rodrick, but:

 

Infiltrators lost out in the FAQ with a 6 to hit now bring an auto wound, and one additional hit. Still good but not as potent.

 

They also can’t deep strike, they deploy same as everything else before the game but anywhere on the board more than 9” away from enemy

 

They’re good, I’m going to be using them, but need a points decrease.

[Happy-inquisitor]

Alright, I did some number crunching over on Dakka, so I felt I should share it here:

 

Premise is the best anti-tank option for a unit of Devastators as they have the widest heavy weapon selection. Each unit (5 models, 4 with heavy weapons, no additional buffs outside of the Devastator doctrine) are shooting at a T8, 3+ vehicle (the math is the same against T6, and T7 due to how wounding works):

 

4 Heavy Bolters: 2.67 dmg

4 Plasma Cannons: 8 dmg

4 Lascannons: 7.22 dmg

 

 

I think your numbers are a bit out - using visual dice calculator and a chapter master reroll I get expected damage 5.9 

 

(http://40k.ghostlords.com/dice/#attacks=12&bs=3&ap=-2&s=5&d=2&t=8&save=3&hit_of_6=1&hit_reroll=fail)

 

Three units of HB devastators cost significantly less than an Imperial Knight but with no stratagems in play would expect to do ~18 damage per turn to that knight. That is very respectable shooting efficiency. The problem with HB spam is not it being inefficient it is the rule of 3 and finding enough units to spam to actually make it work.

 

If you really want to go all-in on HB spam I think you would end up with

3 HB devastator squads 

3 HB Rapier platforms

3 HB Servitor units

 

(Alternatives do exist and FW dreadnoughts are clearly another option)

 

For 663 points you then have an expected damage output vs knights of ~44 damage. Not quite enough to kill two per turn but getting close and its only 1/3 of your 2000 point army, although probably your chapter master is not buffing much else in the shooting phase so maybe you factor his cost in too. One of those knights will rotate shields to reduce your damage a little but it is not a dramatic difference and obviously you also have stratagems available which would increase the damage.

 

Those 90 HB shots are not too shabby vs hordes either.

 

Its downfall is monsters. That whole bunch of HB shots would just about kill one riptide per turn, that is not a particularly great return on such a heavy points investment in heavy bolters.

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

 

Alright, I did some number crunching over on Dakka, so I felt I should share it here:

 

Premise is the best anti-tank option for a unit of Devastators as they have the widest heavy weapon selection. Each unit (5 models, 4 with heavy weapons, no additional buffs outside of the Devastator doctrine) are shooting at a T8, 3+ vehicle (the math is the same against T6, and T7 due to how wounding works):

 

4 Heavy Bolters: 2.67 dmg

4 Plasma Cannons: 8 dmg

4 Lascannons: 7.22 dmg

 

I've argued about it before, but here you go: Heavy Bolters are not a good option if you want to shoot at tanks. Take some real anti-tank punch in your list!

 

EDIT: More math, this time looking at Primaris bolt rifle choices!

Against MEQ (ABR/BR in Tactical, Stalker in Heavy Doctrine no move penalty):

ABR: 6.25

BR (outside of RF): 2.78

BR (inside of RF): 5.56

Stalkers: 3.47

 

Against Primaris (ABR/BR in Tactical, Stalker in Heavy Doctrine):

ABR: 2.88

BR (outside of RF): 1.14

BR (inside of RF): 2.53

Stalkers: 3.47

 

And you know what, I was wrong. Against MEQ they (Stalkers) are better. What about GEQ?

Against GEQ (ABR/BR in Tactical, Stalker in Heavy Doctrine no move penalty):

ABR: 13.89

BR (outside of RF): 5.56

BR (inside of RF): 11.11

Stalkers: 5.56

 

So definitely worse against anything with worse saves than MEQ.

 

So what this has shown me, other than the BR being the most middle of the road/swingy choice, you want a mix of ABR and Stalkers if you want a TAC list.

Can you please expand on your heavy weapons numbers, i can not duplicate them.

 

Looking on the criteria you set up

 

4 Heavy bolters = 8 hits +2 for IF Tactic. 10 hits against T8 = 3.3 Wounds = 2.178 wounds against 3+ with AP-2 = 4.36 Damage (4 Damage in reality). Dev Squad cost 170 = 42.5 points per wound

 

4 Plasma Cannons = 2.64 hits = 0.87 wounds = 0.87 wounds against 3+ with AP -5 = 2.60 Damage (3 Damage in reality). Dev Squad cost 194 = 64.6 points per wound

 

4 Lascannons = 2.64 hits = 1.74 wounds = 1.74 wounds against 3+ with AP-4 = 7.84 Damage (8 in reality). Dev Squad cost 230 = 28.75 points per wound

I plugged the weapon stats numbers into a combat calculator. I could hand crunch things but that takes a while, so I went with using a tool instead.

 

Okay, Veruses a Knight (just one weapon, but full shooting profile):

 

HB: 1.11 dmg

Lascannon: 2.04 dmg (1.04 average + 1 for doctrine bonus)

Plasma Cannon:0.59 dmg

Plasma Cannon OC: 1.33 dmg

 

Yeah, still not sold on the HB unless you're fighting a Knight army and have nothing else to point it at.

 

It just averages worse against vehicles than other weapons. Can it do some work with luck and saturation? Sure. Should you build a list around that? I don't think so.

You're comparing weapons without considering their points costs as far as I can see.

 

Points efficiency is what matters here. You've a 10 point weapon that is achieving 54% of the damage potential of the lascannon for 40% the points cost. It will do this more consistent when spammed, reducing the highs and lows of weapons like lascannons or the suicide potential of plasma OC.

 

Once you've drowned the vehicle targets in heavy firepower, you're now able to turn those same weapons against every other target efficiently enough.

 

This is why I dislike heavy plasma incinerators and lascannons for IF - they become mostly useless once your preferred targets are eliminated, a task that appears to be more achievable for IF early and quickly. They are certainly useful weapons, but since I can pack in two heavy Bolters for every lascannon platform I believe there's tremendous opportunity there.

 

This is why I believe it's an option to ignore anti-horde by going entirely with stalkers for Intercessors without losing any capability to counter hordes in the rest of your list. It's all about points efficiency. The Doctrine lets a TAC list consider a role for platforms they otherwise couldn't achieve anywhere else. Stalker Intercessors become stupid cheap, resilient damage dealers able to pump out ranged dakka against T7 and below threats that can truly hurt. That's a surprisingly points efficient unit for the job.

[Mandragola]

Cost comparisons have to include the price of the unit, not just the price of the gun. A heavy bolter is much more than 40% the price of a lascannon once you factor in the price of whoever’s holding it.

 

I’m also unconvinced by pure heavy bolter spam. The issue is the difficulty in wounding in the first place. Heavy bolters tend to be a somewhat lacklustre weapon to start with – with neither a huge number of shots or a great chance to wound. Double damage is great, but two times nothing is still nothing.

 

Instead, I think I’d look at those weapons that have a decent number of shots at S7+, and which preferably already do 2+ damage. I bang on about Deredeos a lot but there’s also stuff like stalkers (the tanks, not the guns), Invictors, suppressors and maybe even impulsors to think about.

 

An Invictor only costs about 25 points more than a devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters but it has more shots, more than twice as many wounds and a big fist to punch things with. Impulsors are useful for loads of jobs and for Fists they’ve got 9 shots that are almost as good as heavy bolters (much better against anything that flies, worse the rest of the time).

 

I keep coming back to Impulsors because I think they’re potentially a game-changing unit. Compared to a Stalker they are a little bit less tough but faster, flying, and have almost triple the number of shots (17 within 12”). And they’re a transport. And rather than needing to be screened they actually are a fantastic screening unit. Who wants their deep strikers to do an 11" charge just to reach a 90 point transport that cannot be 3-pointed?

 

There’s also the issue of stratagems, and especially the Tank Hunters strat. That’s likely to increase the damage from heavy bolters by 50%, by wounding on 4s instead of 5s. It’s a fairly pricey strat to use on 4 heavy bolters but on a big unit, say devastator centurions or a Fire Raptor, it could be awesome.

 

So basically there’s a lot more to consider than “how many heavy bolters can I have?”. Heavy bolters are not automatically the best weapon – but in some situations they might be.

[Rodrick]

 

Infiltrators seem awesome, 6s to hit are double and auto wound! Entering by deepstrike with tactical doctrine looks solid

Sorry Rodrick, but:

 

Infiltrators lost out in the FAQ with a 6 to hit now bring an auto wound, and one additional hit. Still good but not as potent.

 

They also can’t deep strike, they deploy same as everything else before the game but anywhere on the board more than 9” away from enemy

 

They’re good, I’m going to be using them, but need a points decrease.

 

 

snap, well thanks,  with a point decrease i think they're very powerful, that 12 '' no deepstrike aura is strong

 

shadowspear box is a great value for IF

[DesSaboteur]

 

 

Infiltrators seem awesome, 6s to hit are double and auto wound! Entering by deepstrike with tactical doctrine looks solid

Sorry Rodrick, but:

 

Infiltrators lost out in the FAQ with a 6 to hit now bring an auto wound, and one additional hit. Still good but not as potent.

 

They also can’t deep strike, they deploy same as everything else before the game but anywhere on the board more than 9” away from enemy

 

They’re good, I’m going to be using them, but need a points decrease.

 

 

snap, well thanks,  with a point decrease i think they're very powerful, that 12 '' no deepstrike aura is strong

 

shadowspear box is a great value for IF

 

 

I still plan on using Infiltrators to from the bulk of my infantry. 22 points per model is a little steep but they can bring a lot of utility to a gun line by infiltrating in front of it in deployment, and expanding the deepstrike protection bubble to far away from your lines. And even with the FAQ there still decent when shooting.