We're Gonna Get a Book!

[Lemondish]

The cover save bonus strat looks nice, and more CP generation is always welcome. Our supp looks neither broken, neither trash if you ignore the buildings rules

I really wish the cool fortification models were ever worth considering.

 

But they're really expensive, don't allow auras to work, and they aren't really that durable.

[Fenriwolf]

Honestly turning more negative on it all as more rumors surface.

 

I just wish the french guy is keeping something great to "release" later on.

[Hellebras]

If there's a CP warlord trait, I doubt I'll be taking anything else. With how CP hungry Space Marines seem now, I'm betting I'll want every point I can get. Aside from the psychic table rumors (and I don't typically use psykers anyway, so that's moot to me) I actually think the supplement is sounding pretty interesting to play so far. Sure, it's no Iron Hands, but I don't really want to be the flavor of the week anyway.

 

Keeping a Bolter Drill stratagem is something I kind of expected to happen. It going up in cost is disappointing, but if it works exactly like the previous one then it stacks pretty nicely with the Chapter Tactic. Not sure I'd actually use it much at 2CP though, at that point Rapid Fire seems more reliable and it's too expensive to stack with Rapid Fire in most games. Should work well on auto bolt rifles though.

[jeremy1391]

Ultimately I see whatever our book brings is just going to make us better.. maybe not meta breaking but very good.

 

Hell today in an RTT my centurion Devastator Squad took out close to 1200 points of mechanized black legion.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

If the +1 damage for heavies in the first doctrine is true, then I'm definitely going to field 2 maybe even three squads of heavy plasma executioners.

 

Will see though. I've changed my list so many times!

[BitsHammer]

I brought it up in the rumor thread but I feel like they're trying to set the army up as a 1-2 punch combo where we crack tanks and fortifications on turn 1 (and maybe 2) and then switch to the tactical doctrine to kill what's left.

 

What feels like it's missing is a melee aspect go this. Our most well known character, other than Dorn, is Lysander and yet I don't see anything that pushes that melee aspect for the end game.

 

But maybe that's the point. Maybe GW wants Fists to be the army that employs weaponry more effectively to engage any target as a way to make them codex following generalists without just copying the Ultramarines. The problem is that they can't take down large monsters more effectively with the rules we've seen and it feels like we're being pushed into a gunline playstyle due to how we fail to effectively do anything with melee.

 

Hopefully I'm wrong, but right now I'm not exactly jumping for joy over what we've seen.

[Lemondish]

I brought it up in the rumor thread but I feel like they're trying to set the army up as a 1-2 punch combo where we crack tanks and fortifications on turn 1 (and maybe 2) and then switch to the tactical doctrine to kill what's left.

 

What feels like it's missing is a melee aspect go this. Our most well known character, other than Dorn, is Lysander and yet I don't see anything that pushes that melee aspect for the end game.

 

But maybe that's the point. Maybe GW wants Fists to be the army that employs weaponry more effectively to engage any target as a way to make them codex following generalists without just copying the Ultramarines. The problem is that they can't take down large monsters more effectively with the rules we've seen and it feels like we're being pushed into a gunline playstyle due to how we fail to effectively do anything with melee.

 

Hopefully I'm wrong, but right now I'm not exactly jumping for joy over what we've seen.

 

Definitely big concerns, but I do think you're right about the 1-2 punch concept. After all, there's no real value in being able to damage vehicles or buildings if there aren't any (or anymore) vehicles or buildings come turn 2.

 

As far as the rules we've seen, it's important to note we only have a handful of items shared to us in bits and pieces from leaks, many of which lack clarity or potentially come from a player unfamiliar with the potential combinations for Fists. What we've seen doesn't include an equivalent "Ironstone" piece...but that doesn't mean there won't be one. For Iron Hands, the Ironstone is a major component to the potency of that castle but it also actively encourages abandoning one of the best parts of their doctrine - the mobility - for a bonus that is sufficiently powerful enough to allow that shift in playstyle. Ultramarines have the Seal of Oath as a fantastic option for taking down large targets, and that is special issue wargear piece that isn't. 

 

The strength of Raven Guard and White Scars come from their stratagems as well, so ultimately we need to see the whole package to get an idea if we're going to be gunline Fists, or Shock and Awe fists, or a more combined arms approach that encourages a dug in fortified gunline with elements of the army that push forward to dismantle the opponent's castle. My personal hope is that Seismic Devastation makes the jump from Vigilus as a baseline stratagem. 

 

Now if only more Primaris units could use heavy bolters, I'd be in heaven. The lack of synergy with the Doctrine and the Tactic is probably intended, but boy would I love more opportunities for it to line up lol

[BitsHammer]

@Lemondish: fair points all around. I'm just not sure if how they intend the army to work is going to match how it actually gets played.

 

Sometimes designer intent fails to translate to the table after all.

[Utter Polux]

Hi all, first time poster here.

 

Interested in your opinions about the leaked doctrine rules. Some people have labelled new IH as a point and click army that needs very little tactics to do well with. In comparison I have heard people say the opposite about RG in that they will be a harder army to master but perhaps more rewarding if you're successful.

 

Where do you feel IF/CF will fall?

 

Initially it felt as though we had been given a strong enough, but not very exciting doctrine rule. Now I would say that the more lists I've tried to build that I'm now feeling more optimistic. It feels like we have many different types of lists that can be built to take advantage of our rules.

 

For now I'm focussed on how to take advantage of exploding 6's and +1w on the heavy weapons vs vehicles. There is the potential to be both good at taking out armour and hordes...I agree we might lose some advantages vs nids.

 

What units if any do you think are auto includes?

How well will a Primaris only army perform for IF?

 

Concerns for me are that we could end up being a castle army due to avoiding moving with HW's.

If we employ lots of Stalker BR's and Heavy Plasma Incinerators then a chapter master could be vital.

Lack of heavy bolt weapons.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Hi all, first time poster here.

 

Interested in your opinions about the leaked doctrine rules. Some people have labelled new IH as a point and click army that needs very little tactics to do well with. In comparison I have heard people say the opposite about RG in that they will be a harder army to master but perhaps more rewarding if you're successful.

 

Where do you feel IF/CF will fall?

 

Initially it felt as though we had been given a strong enough, but not very exciting doctrine rule. Now I would say that the more lists I've tried to build that I'm now feeling more optimistic. It feels like we have many different types of lists that can be built to take advantage of our rules.

 

For now I'm focussed on how to take advantage of exploding 6's and +1w on the heavy weapons vs vehicles. There is the potential to be both good at taking out armour and hordes...I agree we might lose some advantages vs nids.

 

What units if any do you think are auto includes?

How well will a Primaris only army perform for IF?

 

Concerns for me are that we could end up being a castle army due to avoiding moving with HW's.

If we employ lots of Stalker BR's and Heavy Plasma Incinerators then a chapter master could be vital.

Lack of heavy bolt weapons.

Aggressors and inceptors seem to fit perfectly in my lists. I'm building a very aggressive IF army at the moment. A full 10 man squad of auto bolt rifle intercessors. 30 shots that can auto hit or hit on 2+ with exploding 6s is going to be awesome.

 

And then throwing in some heavy plasma executioners (waiting on rules before I build them) for heavy support is going to be a hell of a lot of fun.

[Utter Polux]

Some units might surprise opponents...

 

Lieutenant with master crafted Stalker bolt rifle now does flat 4 damage!

 

Landraider Prometheus can now produce 48 wounds a turn!

 

Suppressor unit will wipe out most light armour

 

Eliminator las fusil are strong

 

 

I do hope there are some more general troop based strats because at the moment we are missing some fluff in the way we are going to play. We look like potentially a very strong counter to other marine armies.

[Lemondish]

The Doctrine is but one piece of the puzzle. IH castles honestly don't care much about theirs, for instance. What they care about are the strats, Feirros, the Ironstone bearer, and maybe the psychic powers. The common lists winning recently in the ITC competitive meta rely mostly on triple Repulsor Executioners castled together. That's a deadlier meta compared to actual real 40k, so I can see why. In any case, they don't care about penalties to movement being relaxed - they have PotMS. They also wouldn't care much about the rerolls - they're in a castle anyway.

 

As such, IF will probably end up defined more around what else it brings than the doctrine. After all, it often only affects a small portion of one's army against a small portion of the opponent's army, skew lists aside.

 

The relics, strats, and psychic powers will be far more relevant than the Doctrine for us, long term.

 

And sadly we already know the Psychic powers include some that target buildings in some way. Already not a good sign.

[Zustiur]

Some units might surprise opponents...

 

Lieutenant with master crafted Stalker bolt rifle now does flat 4 damage!

 

but only against targets he'll need a 5+ to wound.

It's very important to keep that fact in mind. I to keep thinking 'yay flat 3 damage autocannon' and similar but then remember it's not true against the majority of targets.

[Lemondish]

 

Some units might surprise opponents...

 

Lieutenant with master crafted Stalker bolt rifle now does flat 4 damage!

 

but only against targets he'll need a 5+ to wound.

It's very important to keep that fact in mind. I to keep thinking 'yay flat 3 damage autocannon' and similar but then remember it's not true against the majority of targets.

I think it just makes these mid strength high volume weapons better at killing vehicles for a turn before they target their naturally preferred targets. That type of flexibility could be nice.

[Utter Polux]

 

Some units might surprise opponents...

 

Lieutenant with master crafted Stalker bolt rifle now does flat 4 damage!

but only against targets he'll need a 5+ to wound.

It's very important to keep that fact in mind. I to keep thinking 'yay flat 3 damage autocannon' and similar but then remember it's not true against the majority of targets.

 

Yes true its got to be targeted vs vehicles but 5+ re-rolling 1's isn't all that bad is it? For me its worth just having for the very few times it comes off...it will be epic.

[DesSaboteur]

 

 

Some units might surprise opponents...

 

Lieutenant with master crafted Stalker bolt rifle now does flat 4 damage!

but only against targets he'll need a 5+ to wound.

It's very important to keep that fact in mind. I to keep thinking 'yay flat 3 damage autocannon' and similar but then remember it's not true against the majority of targets.

I think it just makes these mid strength high volume weapons better at killing vehicles for a turn before they target their naturally preferred targets. That type of flexibility could be nice.

 

 

This right here is the greatest point of strength I see right now. Heavy bolters are now at the top of my priorities for getting as many into my army as possible, currently looking at at least 20 for a 2000pt list. They will become flat 2D against vehicles with Ap2 and get the advantage of the exploding shots thanks to the Chapter Tactics. They can bring nearly every target in the game down with weight of fire alone and are cheap to get on to the field.  

[Utter Polux]

The way I have been trying to get the most out of the rules is to consider a squad a heavy plasma hellblasters and a squad of stalker bolt rifle ints. Chapter master is the ideal support character along with a lieutenant and then possibly a chaplain.

 

A ten man hell blaster squad is expensive but equip them with heavy plasma, fire at full strength and support with Chapter master and lieutenant and they will do an average of 20 wounds a turn to T8 3+ save vehicles.  If they have to move the average comes down to 19 wounds.

 

IH on the other hand will dish out an average of 13 wounds regardless of moving or not with the same load out.

 

It has already been mentioned as a 1-2 punch which I agree with. Turn one for IF we can potentially cause the most damage...on turn one with the right load out that is. Then turn two let the tactical doctrine commence and take out the hordes with bolter fire exploding on 6's.

 

So turn 1 is a huge over hand right and turn 2 we are punching to the body...a clever list for IF could be quite competitive.

[Utter Polux]

Another fun thought is IF vs orks...

 

Taking out truks is going to be a lot easier than before. How fun is the thought of taking out all the orks transport turn 1 then pick them off foot slogging their way over lol

 

This could be applied to most transports...IF will take them out quickly. The amount of D2 and D3 we have is pretty cool.

[Mandragola]

The bonus to damage from heavy weapons is great, because it makes anti-personnel weapons into anti-everything weapons. Heavy bolters become disintegrators, more or less. The twin assault cannon on a storm talon gains the profile of an Imperial Knight’s avenger gatling cannon, at least against vehicles and buildings.

 

It doesn’t directly do anything against infantry, except that when you go up against an infantry-heavy army you’ll be tooled up with loads of heavy bolters and assault cannons. That seems good to me.

 

It isn’t fluffy though. According to the fluff, Imperial Fists like accurate guns like lascannons. You’d never choose to shoot something once with this bonus, when you could shoot them multiple times and gain multiple times the benefit.

 

It’s probably worth pointing out that it’s not simply the shot count that influences how good this is. You need wounds to actually go through and saves to be failed. So (for example) an autocannon might still do more damage than a heavy bolter, because it’s more likely to wound and starts out with D2. An Imperial Fists lascannon will still do more damage to a knight than a heavy bolter, but it doesn’t do that much more, for a much higher price, and it’s a lot worse against infantry.

[Utter Polux]

Would you agree that the fluff for IF, to be re-created on the tabletop would be to have the best infantry/troops?

 

Because I see IF as the best soldiers...and our troops do have exploding 6's ignoring cover with potential to even take out light armour with stalker fire.

[Mandragola]

Sure. I never said the chapter tactic wasn’t fluffy. It’s taking out tanks with spray and pray guns that’s unfluffy.

 

I’m not sure stalker bolters for intercessors are the way to go. They probably aren’t terrible, but even with this super doctrine they remain my least favourite intercessor weapon. They might have a weird edge case of usefulness against vehicles that are also characters, using the very expensive stratagem.

 

This super doctrine does weird things like make land raider redeemers into awesome anti air weapons. It seems to me that the armies it will encourage are not all that much like the fluff.

 

It's powerful though, so there's that.

[Utter Polux]

I totally get your point...I think you're right about the fluff.  IF perhaps not easy to faithfully represent on the tabletop.

 

I think with Stalker bolters I will at least include a 5 man squad in each list. High range, high damage could make them decent back table objective holders.

 

Thinking of ways to keep a 10 man hellblaster squad on the table long enough...be interesting to see what strats we have. Counts as in cover would be nice...add might of heroes for T5 maybe. Not a fan of Trans Phys strat but its an option.

[Mandragola]

Personally I'm contemplating an army with 3 storm hawks and 3 storm talons. I'm calling it "Rynn Air", after the budget airline. The plan would be to shoot assault cannons and heavy bolters until everything was dead.

 

Nothing very much in the Fists fluff says that this is appropriate, but it seems kind of amusing. Costs about a thousand points, so I'd have plenty spare for a load of infantry.

[Utter Polux]

Storm Talons for IF will be awesome...I like the +1 to hit ground targets. Imagine assault cannons being classed as bolt weapons! But still very strong.

 

Am I right in thinking heavy bolters are better for us than assault cannons? Because of exploding 6's? 

 

I would like to test play a Prometheus Land Raider with 24 heavy bolter shots...I think I have worked it out that rolling 24 dice hitting with an average of 16, with a chapter master re-rolling misses means rolling an additional 8 times. Thats 32 hits rolled for so potentially you would roll 5 6's. Average of 20 hits and 5 6's means 25 hits altogether. That takes out 12 primaris marines.

[Lemondish]

Before you click the link, there's no pictures, but Valrak provided some updates from seeing the book himself (

). He picked ones he liked from a narrative perspective, so don't shoot the messenger if you're underwhelmed. My try at rounding it all up in text...with my thoughts in red. 

 

First up, there's Crimson Fist information in this book but no Black Templars.  

 

Doctrine - While you are in the Devastator Doctrine, heavy weapons gain +1 damage against VEHICLES and BUILDINGS. 

Known quantity at this point, but good to put to rest my hope that there'd be more to it than that. 

 

Imperial Fist Warlord Traits:

 

Fleet Master: free orbital bombardment, but requires a stationary warlord that takes no action and can only be used once per game. Doesn't suggest it is exclusive, so that suggests it can stack with the Stratagem and the Impulsor upgrade. 

Multiple sources of orbital bombardments are neat, though I'm not certain how often I'd really like to do this. Only the Impulsor is a list related item, so it could be nice to have this combo in one's back pocket against big clumped up castles. 

 

Stubborn Heroism - Warlord can never fall back, but when resolving an attack against this Warlord halve any damage (rounding up). 

I wonder if Tor Garadon has this one...

 

Crimson Fist Warlord Traits:

 

Refuse to Die from the WD article. When destroyed, roll a D6, on a 4+ you return this Warlord as close as possible to its original location with D3 wounds remaining. 

I think this confirms we'll see ALL the White Dwarf related Strats, Traits, and Relics for CF in this supplement. 

 

Stratagems:

 

Bitter Enemy - 1CP - re-roll hit and wound rolls in the Fight phase against Iron Warriors.

Fluffy and powerful. 

 

Bolter Drill - 2CP - same as the Chapter Tactic i.e. additional hit on an unmodified hit roll of 6. Looks likely to stack with the Chapter Tactic. 

BOLTERS FOR DAYS

 

Bolster Defense - 1CP - One Imperial Fist Infantry unit entirely on or within a terrain feature. As long as it remains stationary, add 1 to saving throw. Does not affect invulnerable saves. 

This continues my flirtations with adding an Aegis Defense Line to my list. 

 

Pain is a Lesson - 1CP - 6+ FNP shared earlier in the day by Valrak himself - only on Infantry. 

Not being available for vehicles is a pain :(

 

Praetorian's Wrath - 2CP - The IF equivalent to all the +1 AP when you make an unmodified wound roll of 6 for the Chapter's preferred weapon from the other supplements. Heavy/grenade weapons in Devastator. 

Same as everyone else, but neat nonetheless. With the rumour of the Stratagem that allows everyone to toss a grenade, it could be useful there. 

 

Psychic Powers:

 

Fortify - WC4 - Imperial Fist Infantry or Biker model regains D3 wounds.

Seems IF are starting to look like Infantry are superior to vehicles for their purposes. 

 

Iron Inferno - WC6 - 1 point within 18'' and visible, roll a D6 for each enemy unit within 6''. On a 4+ they suffer 1 mortal wound.

Basically a psychic orbital bombardment to add to the pile. 

 

Relics:

 

Spartean is included. 

Forgive me while I throw up a bit.

 

Banner of Stangangangnanagnda - When resolving an attack made with a melee weapon by a model in an Imperial Fist unit that is within 6'' of the relic holder, add 1 to the hit roll. 

Aggressors say hi to this one. 

 

Eye of Hypnoth - exactly like it was in Vigilus i.e. Lieutenant buff for the wearer (re-roll 1s to wound). 

One more step towards ensuring Seismic Devastation is in the baseline codex...but still no confirmation of that.