BA Codex 0.2 Speculation/Discussion

[PaladinStormlord]

No point changes, correct.

 

In SM codex the thunderhammer for chars costs 40pts now.

 

Okay, thanks!

 

I have been watching the main rumor thread waiting for someone to post a link to the updated points, but seems no one had put anything up on imgur yet.

[VanDutch]

I guess you can't use the vanguard warlord traits anymore because we use i.e. the Obscuration discipline from codex SM now and not from vanguard codex.

Do we still not get the Warlord Traits via the Shadowspear Supplement? Just checked and the Shadowspear errata is still up on the FAQ page.

[Chronos1985]

What's the issue with the Phobos Librarian? We can still take the Obscuration powers if we want to but we also got the option to take our own powers instead (which kinda secures him a permanent spot in my list now lol).

Are we reading it as we can mix between the two?  Or you must stick to one Discipline?

 

I am assuming we can't mix based on how I am reading it.

[Leonaides]

Stick to one is my read on it.

[Chronos1985]

Something about how GW handled these releases, and the clue on what they are NOT giving us...IE litanies, combat doctrines, and the First Born point reductions. In addition, to them once again bringing up this Awakening - I don't know, I feel like we're getting these codex's sooner than we think and maybe it's going to tie into this new storyline/campaign?

 

Guy Haley's Blood Angel follow up novel is on it's way too that could touch on their newest chapter in the Blood Angel lore post Devastation of Baal. Something is up, and I think we may have something before Christmas. 

 

We also have hanging storylines after Prospero, and with the Dark Angels with their Luther/Cypher threads.

 

My Red Thirst tingles...

 

 

Edit - Spelling

[Jolemai]

This thread is for Codex 2.0 discussion/speculation.

 

Can all discussion on the new rules move

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/forum/8-blood-angels/

 

Cheers.

[Panzer]

Definitely only powers from one of the disciplines. The wording is pretty clear.

[Panzer]

It looks like three five man squads of Reivers plus Dante in a charge could give put -4 leadership on an enemy unit. Throw in a Phobos Lt with a Vanguard warlord trait to give +1 charge to the Reivers and that could be quite an effective turn 2 tactic.

 

Nightlords can easily stack -6 and better. Nobody is seriously doing that though because morale checks are just not worth it to rely on unfortunately.

 

 

Phobos Libby has to be wrong. That would seem too good otherwise. Infiltrate, Wings then Charge.

 

Really? To me it sounds like a save way to sacrifice an expensive Librarian for little return. He's not the melee monster a Librarian Dread or Mephiston are and he also doesn't have much protection aside of his character keyword. Just because you can sling him into the enemys lines doesn't mean it's a good idea. ^^

[Arkhanist]

 

No point changes, correct.

 

In SM codex the thunderhammer for chars costs 40pts now.

 

Okay, thanks!

 

I have been watching the main rumor thread waiting for someone to post a link to the updated points, but seems no one had put anything up on imgur yet.

 

 

C:SM point changes summary here. Presumably we'll see similar when we do get our codex, or maybe Chapter Approved 2019.

[The Unseen]

So, what do people think our Doctrine equivalents be?

I almost think they'll be the same, but I wouldn't mind something more along the lines of movement bonus, into combat bonus, into survivability bonus.

To represent the opening blitz with over charged engines and marines eager to close on the enemy, then unleashing said eagerness, and then hanging on through the counter-punch and the "combat-high".

 

But it won't suprise me if we're identical.

Just hope we get a strat that let's us either jump forward one, or at least let a unit count as in the assault doctrine.

Cause if not, waiting till turn 3 is counter to our normal game plan of turn 2 charges.

[Silas7]

I gotta be honest, as a mostly primaris army codex:SM is looking like a better fit for how I'd like to play. Taking duelist and exploding shots on 6's and spamming autobolt rifles are very fluffy to how i've imagined my Blades fighting. As I don't use any BA specific units switching over wouldn't take anything away from me.

 

That said, for the next codex I'd like to see some love given to the shootier side of the Angels while maintaining a fierce melee tilt and for vehicles to inherit CT buffs.

[Panzer]

I honestly don't want to do any speculations about our possible Combat Doctrine equivalent. It could be so many different things and it would very quickly lead to wishlisting and thus to disappointment because people take wishlisting always too seriously.

However if it's anything melee and/or mobility related I'll be happy enough. ^^

[Dont-Be-Haten]

So, what do people think our Doctrine equivalents be?

I almost think they'll be the same, but I wouldn't mind something more along the lines of movement bonus, into combat bonus, into survivability bonus.

To represent the opening blitz with over charged engines and marines eager to close on the enemy, then unleashing said eagerness, and then hanging on through the counter-punch and the "combat-high".

 

But it won't suprise me if we're identical.

Just hope we get a strat that let's us either jump forward one, or at least let a unit count as in the assault doctrine.

Cause if not, waiting till turn 3 is counter to our normal game plan of turn 2 charges.

Going off what weve seen from other armies. I could see it be something like red thirst and Lucifer pattern engines for vehicles. Where they can add an additional 3" to all vehicles movement. Or always move max distance when advancing.

 

Not much outside of that.

 

Edit: read that as chapter tactic not doctrines.

[Morticon]

What interests me most is the notion of a dual benefit chapter tactic PLUS a set of doctrines. 

I honestly believe GW would be working in their best interests if they just made us have doctrines. It REALLY makes sense - the only difference I would ask for would be the ability to get to assault doctrines quicker than others. 

Beyond that, supplementing rules that are unique and different and as  generous /powered (not necessarily powerful) is a headache. 

I LITERALLY have no idea.  

Part of me however wants a return to 3rd ed codex where we could rhino rush.  Or, at the very least have all our vehicles /rhinos etc have the assault vehicle rule. 

 

[Arkhanist]

I think a nice set of litanies for chaplains could give us a real boost in CC without needing to faff with doctrines, maybe being able to jump forward to assault turn 2 with a strat or choose instead to boost your shooting for longer like codex armies. Rather depends if they want the codex deviant chapters (and/or deathwatch and grey knights) to be able to ally fully with codex marines. At the moment, any non CSM unit added to an otherwise codex army will eliminate combat doctrines for the whole army, as every unit has to have the Combat Doctrines ability to use them. That may well be intentional to be kept that way.

 

GW have gone to great lengths to prevent reliable 1st turn charges lately, and continue to nerf abilities that allow it. A return to widespread 1st turn rhino rush or equivalent doesn't seem likely in 8th.

 

Not going to hold my breath waiting for anything good though. I'll be pretty surprised if BA get a new codex this year, and I'll be even more surprised if it buffs us as much as the new codex. Been disappointed too many times by GW not really understanding BA, or why people take them.

[Karhedron]

I honestly believe GW would be working in their best interests if they just made us have doctrines. It REALLY makes sense - the only difference I would ask for would be the ability to get to assault doctrines quicker than others.

How about if we actually START on the assault doctrine to represent our first strike and then we cycle through onto the shootier doctrines late game. UMs soften up with shooting and then finish off with melee. We use melee as an alpha-strike to tear the heart out of the enemy and then use shooting to mop up the survivors.

[SnorriSnorrison]

 

I honestly believe GW would be working in their best interests if they just made us have doctrines. It REALLY makes sense - the only difference I would ask for would be the ability to get to assault doctrines quicker than others.

How about if we actually START on the assault doctrine to represent our first strike and then we cycle through onto the shootier doctrines late game. UMs soften up with shooting and then finish off with melee. We use melee as an alpha-strike to tear the heart out of the enemy and then use shooting to mop up the survivors.

Not always, and certainly not in 3rd edition. Back then, we started with devastator fire and used rhinos as cover for jumpers and a second turn assault. I still try to adhere to that, but I wouldn’t mind to get something that’s good for turn 1 assault - but I doubt we’ll get it.

[Gingerninja]

Found a change to Honour the Chapter strat in the new codex that they probably will change in ours.

 

Our codex wording: Use this stratagem at the end of any fight phase. Select a Blood Angels Infantry or Blood Angels Biker unit from your army - that unit can immediately fight again.

 

In the new SM codex wording: Use this Stratagem at the end of the Fight phase. Select one ADEPTUS ASTARTES unit from your army within 1" of any enemy units; that unit can fight an additional time that phase.

 

From my understand the change will be pretty huge if it applies for us. At the moment I use this strat as follows:

Forlorn Fury my DC unit > Move > Charge as many units i see fit > Pile in > Kill all units > Consolidate so Im just outside 1" of another unit or units that I have charged (so they cant fight back) > use Honour the Chapter strat > Pile in > Fight again > consolidate in order to try to lock the DC unit in combat.

 

With the new wording this will become much harder since I need to remain in combat to be able to use "Honour the Chapter".

 

 

Am I playing this in a correct way currently and do I understand the potential changes correct?

[Vermintide]

I imagine we'll get our own equivalent, but different, spin on the Doctrines. Can't see them changing Red Thirst- That's the equivalent of the regular Chapter Tactic for us, essentially.

Something like T1- Extra movement or extra defence. T2- Extra charge range or fight first in combat, if charged. T3- FNP or similar "survival" modifier, representing the rage setting in.

That's just very quick brainstorming, but I'd imagine they'll stick to a similar pattern to the vanilla Marines. The intention there seemed to be that you have to carefully plan your turns to get the most benefit, with a balance tipped towards fluffiness rather than sheer power, but nonetheless offering some tasty incentives. It'd also probably have to be something that still benefits you without assuming you got first turn. Something that gives you a choice to weigh up between all out assault, and tactically holding back.

Considering that our Librarians get different powers, we'd have to assume the Chaplain litanies will be slightly different too, with more focus on combat buffs. Which I look forward to, because Chaplains are sorely underrated and I love them.

On a less optimistic note, I do have a bad feeling we'll get at least a couple of lame unit specific powers. But I suppose there are some things that would be too powerful if you had the option of applying them to anything from DC/SG/Terminators. But I'm sure we'll have plenty to make up for it.

[Panzer]

If we get something like Combat Doctrines there's no chance it'll be 100% melee focussed. Keep in mind that Blood Angels fight like vanilla Marines for the most part. We like Jump Packs and have a tendency to end up in melee thanks to the Red Thirst, but we do the shooting just as well as them until then.

[Arkhanist]

Found a change to Honour the Chapter strat in the new codex that they probably will change in ours.

 

Our codex wording: Use this stratagem at the end of any fight phase. Select a Blood Angels Infantry or Blood Angels Biker unit from your army - that unit can immediately fight again.

 

In the new SM codex wording: Use this Stratagem at the end of the Fight phase. Select one ADEPTUS ASTARTES unit from your army within 1" of any enemy units; that unit can fight an additional time that phase.

 

From my understand the change will be pretty huge if it applies for us. At the moment I use this strat as follows:

Forlorn Fury my DC unit > Move > Charge as many units i see fit > Pile in > Kill all units > Consolidate so Im just outside 1" of another unit or units that I have charged (so they cant fight back) > use Honour the Chapter strat > Pile in > Fight again > consolidate in order to try to lock the DC unit in combat.

 

With the new wording this will become much harder since I need to remain in combat to be able to use "Honour the Chapter".

 

 

Am I playing this in a correct way currently and do I understand the potential changes correct?

 

Yes, you're playing it right - as long as you declare a charge against all potential targets for both rounds of fighting and thus be potentially overwatched by, and all those targets are within 12" of your starting position which it sounds like you're doing. There's a couple of explainers in the rulebook FAQ that add additional blurb that confirms the process.

 

As you say, the CSM strat change means you'd have to consolidate to within 1" of a new enemy unit with at least 1 model after the first fight in order to be eligible to use Honour the Chapter. You could of course then use the pile-in move to get the rest of the guys in position, bearing in mind each model has to end up closer to their nearest enemy than they started with both pile in and consolidate.

 

So yes, if they change the BA strat to match the CSM one, it will be harder to get onto the 2nd unit as you'll only have the consolidate move and have to get inside 1", instead of consolidate plus pile-in to get in range. And since you have to be within 1" to use the strat at the end of the fight phase, the new unit would get to attack you before you can be selected to fight again even as a charger.

 

On the plus side, changing it to the CSM wording would mean we can honour the chapter with dreadnoughts, which would be nice!

[Vermintide]

If we get something like Combat Doctrines there's no chance it'll be 100% melee focussed. Keep in mind that Blood Angels fight like vanilla Marines for the most part. We like Jump Packs and have a tendency to end up in melee thanks to the Red Thirst, but we do the shooting just as well as them until then.

 

Yeah, that was just the first thing to come into my head honestly. But I'm trying to think in terms of the bigger picture.

 

Vanilla marines got a well rounded long range shoot > close range shoot > combat buff sequence. Classic jack of all trades stuff. So it follows, for example, that Dark Angels would get some more shooty focussed buffs over their phases, Blood Angels to get more punchy focussed buffs, Wolves to get mobility focussed buffs. Deathwatch get anti-xenos and Knights get anti-heretic. All in keeping with the flavours of their respective forces.

 

Again, those are just examples off the top of my head, but you see what I'm getting at hopefully. Even if they did focus entirely on combat (and I don't think they would- Like I said, some of it could be mobility or defence focussed to help give us a fighting chance if we end up going turn 2 against a static gunline, for instance) keep in mind our big guns would still shoot exactly as well as vanilla marines in the other two phases where they don't have buffs.

[Frater Antodeniel]

I hope that the "successors chapter tactics" will be part of the next Blood Angels codex, it would be a complete non-sense if it wasn't part of it.

 

Many of those tactics, in their current form in the Space Marine codex, would fit the Blood Angels and successors.

 

Born Heroes, Duellist, Fearsome Aspect, Hungry for Battle, Whirlwind of Rage, Warded, Master Artisans...and some others are not only effective Tactics, but also fit the Blood Angels fluff.

 

I can picture the possibility that the Red Thirst will be the mandatory chapter tactic for Blood Angels and Successors, and that the choice will be given for a second additional chapter tactic.

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

I'd like the overcharged engines back for rhinos and razorbacks at least. Or failing that, make it a stratagem, like the Death Visions, Inner Circle or Wulfen dreadnought ones where you upgrade at the beginning of the battle, maybe one CP for rhino chassis and two CP for a landraider. Its ajoke it only lasts a turn, and can only be used on one tank at a time, given how stratagems work in matched play. Having said that though, it should be part of our CT, Red Thirst for infantry, bikers and dreads, Lucifer Engines for our tracked vehicles ( there's definitely an argument for impulssors and reppulssors not getting it from a fluff perspective), not only would it bring back one of the things that made us unique from third to seventh editions, but there is precedent with how IH's chapter tactics work.

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

I hope that the "successors chapter tactics" will be part of the next Blood Angels codex, it would be a complete non-sense if it wasn't part of it.

 

Many of those tactics, in their current form in the Space Marine codex, would fit the Blood Angels and successors.

 

Born Heroes, Duellist, Fearsome Aspect, Hungry for Battle, Whirlwind of Rage, Warded, Master Artisans...and some others are not only effective Tactics, but also fit the Blood Angels fluff.

 

I can picture the possibility that the Red Thirst will be the mandatory chapter tactic for Blood Angels and Successors, and that the choice will be given for a second additional chapter tactic.

Can't remember what Whirlwind of Rage does, but by the sounds of its name would definitely suit Flesh Tearers.