BA Codex 0.2 Speculation/Discussion

[Blindhamster]

I'm being realistic about the general treatment, not pessimistic. I agree 8th ed codex was a legitimate surprise.

 

Guess we shall see where things go!

[Spagunk]

This release makes me have feelings and opinions...

[Aothaine]

I really hope they make Terminators viable. I have a bunch of them sitting in a box waiting to be built. Terminators are my big concern here.

[CrimsonExarch]

As it stands, the codex supplements seem to provide the following to the Vanilla Chapters:
1. Special character datasheets.
2. A few unique units.
3. A passive buff to one of the combat doctrines adding extra effects.
4. Their own psychic discipline.
5. A set of relics and warlord traits.
6. A whole bunch of chapter-specific stratagems that can be used in addition to the codex: space marine ones (16 in the case of the UM supplement)

Essentially....its a codex.....But they also got the big main codex....
So they'll likely have close to double the stratagems (which are upgraded versions of ours for the most part), double the relics, two psychic disciplines....Several of their own "unique units".....Normal combat doctrines + the passive upgrade to one of them depending on the chapter invoking it.

I'm sorry....but we really got the shaft here.....They really needed to give us more in that PDF update to keep us even remotely competitive.

 

[Indefragable]

Deathwing, Deathwatch, and Space Wolf Terminators are relatively more viable because they can mix n’ match both CQC and shooty models in a squad. Both DW flavors are Fearless as well. SW Wolf Guard Termies can take the odd looking but crunchy combo of combo-weapons + storm shields. I think that versatility brings their versions far higher on the usefulness category, but still not great.

 

Hopefully there are Strategems and Doctrines that make Terminators more useful.

 

Or make them T5 3W 2+/5++

[Panzer]

They won't change the datasheet of Terminators for our Codex. Anything to make them better would be something to be slapped on top of what they are like the Salamanders new CT of ignoring AP-1.

[Karhedron]

I really hope they make Terminators viable. I have a bunch of them sitting in a box waiting to be built. Terminators are my big concern here.

The big problem with Terminators remains getting them where they are going. The +1A on the charge will help their damage output but only if they can reach a target. We have no equivalent of DoA for Terminators meaning we either have to buy an expensive transports, gamble on a 9" charge or footslog (Termies are too slow and expensive for that).

 

I don't see Termies benefiting significantly from anything that has been posted so far. Bolter Discipline helps get a bit more mileage out of their Storm Bolters but it is not a huge deal.

[Frater Antodeniel]

 

I really hope they make Terminators viable. I have a bunch of them sitting in a box waiting to be built. Terminators are my big concern here.

The big problem with Terminators remains getting them where they are going. The +1A on the charge will help their damage output but only if they can reach a target. We have no equivalent of DoA for Terminators meaning we either have to buy an expensive transports, gamble on a 9" charge or footslog (Termies are too slow and expensive for that).

 

I don't see Termies benefiting significantly from anything that has been posted so far. Bolter Discipline helps get a bit more mileage out of their Storm Bolters but it is not a huge deal.

 

 

The real problem regarding Terminators (and many other units) is the fact that GW kinda cornered themselves with the whole Primaris thing. Meaning that Terminators ASTARTES should no longer be a thing, it is called to end at some point, following the new primaris 41k logic, both in fluff and rules...(But they still could re-size the classic Terminator armour to make it fit Primaris Astartes, after all, why not^^).

 

It would have been so much easier if GW did not start Primaris...but nonetheless, Phobos Primaris make for great scouts proxy and the incoming releases only reinforce the idea.

[Xerxus]

Terminators can benefit from the Master of the Vanguard warlord trait for Phobos Characters, which provides them with +1" to charge range and movement. Combined with a single CP reroll you can hit a 68% charge success rate from deep strike.

[Panzer]

66.2% actually, but yeah it's decent.
Still not super reliable though, plus you have to either drop them near an already deployed Librarian in Phobos Armour, an already deployed Captain in Phobos Armour or together with a Lieutenant in Phobos armour since you can't give a regular Captain one of the Vanguard Warlord traits.

[Xerxus]

I'm hoping that they release a multipart Phobos Captain with a power sword option (preferrably master-crafted) and the same deep strike option that the Lieutenant has. Not that the exact percentage matters but it's 68% when rerolling the lowest assuming that you always go for a hail mary, check out this link: https://anydice.com/program/1709d

[Panzer]

I'm hoping that they release a multipart Phobos Captain with a power sword option (preferrably master-crafted) and the same deep strike option that the Lieutenant has. Not that the exact percentage matters but it's 68% when rerolling the lowest assuming that you always go for a hail mary, check out this link: https://anydice.com/program/1709d

 

Ah yeah I see the mistake I made in my anydice.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

A couple of things. Veteran players know the mistakes of telling us we get radical things from old white dwarf previews, only for said epic things to be a complete farce.

 

I'm with Charlo, I think the guy is just a troll. But that's neither hear nor there...the quick answer to that is play them in Open War.

 

It's better to err on the side of caution. Especially when you have lots of individuals saying' "believe it when you see it."

 

I'm more excited about getting to play my space marines chapter than I am worried about BA getting the doctrines. There are cases to be made for each, but I've long since given up on a lot of rational arguments for BA since it mostly falls on deaf ears from the R&D department.

 

Anyways, this always happens. We start out with a positive edition, and then power creep and rules bloat silently works it's way into the game like high cholesterol in our arteries. Eventually it hemorrhages and the edition dies.

[Captain_Krash]

We are on our way there now...imo since we all left index's.

 

Krash

[SnorriSnorrison]

What’s really annoying about the new SM release is the power creep, but that’s a GW thing since balance is unknown to them. Instead of pushing one faction further up on the ladder, they could use test games as data sources to tone down the factions that are a bit over the top, FAQ stratagems and point costs for certain units and upgrades.

 

Of course that doesn’t generate much revenue, so...yeah.

[Panzer]

We'll see how much power creep there actually is. If they don't stomp the current top table armies it's not power creep, it's balancing.

[SnorriSnorrison]

For the ones below the top, it’s certainly power creep. Replacing the top-tier armies with an even stronger army isn’t a good attempt at balancing. It just gets interesting for the less powerful factions with no-brainer effects like the new doctrines. Lascannons with AP4. Repulsors with AP2 Gatling cannons, and AP5 main guns. Little tactic or strategy to it.

 

But as I said, doing it this way will allow GW to push new kits and sell new models, so this won’t be the last time they do it.

I can live with that since it keeps the game alive. Not optimal though.

[Panzer]

I didn't say anything about replacing. If everyone is a top tier army, nobody is.

[SnorriSnorrison]

True. Yet the path to that goal is long and arduous, and I for one don’t think GW is going to invest the time and effort needed to make it happen. So most likely we’ll see a power-spiral with hits and misses like before.

[Panzer]

Yeah no question about that. The question is whether the UM will be the ones to advance the power spiral or not. 

[Aothaine]

I love this game. But sadly, I think competitive play is the issue. I understand the need for balance. I prefer playing with points as it ensures are more even playing field than playing with just power levels. But I think balancing a game with this many units and factions is very difficult. Look at any competitive computer game and the constant nerfs and buffs they have to give to units to try and balance their game. Balancing armies is never an easy task and I think GW is making an effort in doing this. I'm also of the mind that you should buff and not nerf units/characters/items. It seems, so far, that GW mostly agrees with this philosophy. Something else to keep in mind is that GW's updates move a lot slower than computer games. It is going to take time for them to get the game as close to balanced as possible. They have zero reason to not want it balanced. Balance = profits. 

 

Anyway, I might sound like a GW spokesperson right now but I'm not. I just remember was GW was like under it's previous management. This GW is so much better that I find it difficult to doubt their desires and intent.

 

Also, thank you everyone for the small terminator discussion. I agree they are slow for the current game state. Maybe one day I'll get them built and painted but most likely I'll be trying to sell them off. I prefer the Primaris line much more than the old marines. The lines are so much smoother and it is that new look that has prevented me from falling into T'au. My all primaris force, The Roaring Lions, are going to be used as a *counts as" army so I can play with all of the rules. But I'm a Flesh Tearer at heart. I'll save my old marine desires for my Renegade White Scars. 

 

P.S. I know Gabriel Seth doesn't trust the primaris. But he has them at his command now and will use them as the tools he needs. He may be stubborn but he is smart. I have a feeling he will come to see them as brothers and eventually accept the primaris upgrade. I'm working on a primaris conversion for him now. Well, using primaris parts to make him bigger anyway. Also going to be making his sword from that white plastic material eventually. This is a project that is going to take me a few years, because I'm old and slow, but I'll get it done eventually. :D

 

Also, everyone cheer up! GW is listening and they are trying not to make changes that will chase away their niche player base. Have some faith in the company that has done a 180 for their players. Give it time. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

You could always just play your terminators in narrative and open war games like me. Those are the best types of games anyway in my opinion.

[Panzer]

I rather don't play at all than playing Open Play to be honest.

Narrative is fine if you play with points and an opponent that doesn't play an army that can abuse the lack of restrictions (like infinite summoning and Stratagem spamming).

[Aothaine]

I rather don't play at all than playing Open Play to be honest.

Narrative is fine if you play with points and an opponent that doesn't play an army that can abuse the lack of restrictions (like infinite summoning and Stratagem spamming).

 

Fair enough. Once someone starts pulling that stuff with me I just pack up and go play someone else. This is my hobby and the game I enjoy. I'm not going to sit around and let someone abuse things just so they can get a win. I like Narrative play, but I don't mind more serious games. I like building strong fluffy lists. But I tend to avoid the "win-at-all-costs" players.

[Charlo]

Well it looks like DA are after Vanilla dex (white dwarf leaks).

 

It says "Primaris Dark Angels" so time will tell if that's a new unit.

 

Hopefully we are shortly after.