Allart01 Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 What I'd like to add Is that the Emperor worked on the Astartes project so that they could be produced at legion size. They are not, and were never meant to be, his genetic masterpiece: those were the Custodes and the Primarchs. In the Emperor's realm of possibilities the Astartes had quantity; quality Is to be found in the other two. What I'm trying to say Is that the common complaint -that Cawl has outdone the Emperor's masterpiece- Is Simply untrue. He has improved the Emperor's "Battle ready" paint job, not his Golden Daemon entry. And It took him ten Thousand years to do It. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357729-on-primaris-and-the-future-of-40k/page/5/#findComment-5371767 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 It's not accurate to say the Legion's didn't have quality. They were the only army since the Eldar to conquer the whole of the galaxy. They were the only army to conquer it so completely, and so thoroughly, and so quickly it survived for ten thousand years drifting on inertia from that initial conquest. They had a quality different to Custodes and Primarchs, but it was still a high quality. Reminder, Guilliman has organized the Imperium Sanctus into the same war footing it was on during the Great Crusade with armies every bit as large and coordinated, and he has been doing this for 200 years now, and they still haven't even secured the Imperium Sanctus as opposed to the Great Crusade, which conquered the whole galaxy in the same amount of time. The point of blending Martian and Terran genetic engineering into Primaris is to make the Imperium be able to resist the insane threats that face it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357729-on-primaris-and-the-future-of-40k/page/5/#findComment-5371774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allart01 Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 It's not accurate to say the Legion's didn't have quality. They were the only army since the Eldar to conquer the whole of the galaxy. They were the only army to conquer it so completely, and so thoroughly, and so quickly it survived for ten thousand years drifting on inertia from that initial conquest. They had a quality different to Custodes and Primarchs, but it was still a high quality. Reminder, Guilliman has organized the Imperium Sanctus into the same war footing it was on during the Great Crusade with armies every bit as large and coordinated, and he has been doing this for 200 years now, and they still haven't even secured the Imperium Sanctus as opposed to the Great Crusade, which conquered the whole galaxy in the same amount of time. The point of blending Martian and Terran genetic engineering into Primaris is to make the Imperium be able to resist the insane threats that face it. But I didn't say that the Astartes lack quality - that would be absurd. What I said is that they were made with galatic conquest as their purpose, so reproducibility on vast scale in a relatively fast time schedule was indeed a factor in that project. The Emperor didn't have the same concerns with the Custodes and, even less, the Primarchs, which are his true masterpieces. Point is, saying that Cawl outdid the Emperor (a common misconception and complaint regarding Primaris) is inaccurate, aswell. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357729-on-primaris-and-the-future-of-40k/page/5/#findComment-5371805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted August 21, 2019 Author Share Posted August 21, 2019 And if some of the claims I've seen are true Cawl didn't even really improve on the Astartes design but rather found the scraps from what was left over and managed to add them back in. We don't even know how many things the Emperor cut out of his original template in order to make the Astartes. We do know the project had a rocky start with the Thunder Warriors and that the Emperor was racing against an unseen clock to get his plans into place before Chaos could react in time and he still failed to do so since the lack of screening means the taint of chaos had an easier time latching hold of the legions. The Emperor, despite what the Ministorum preaches, was not perfect and neither were his plans or creations. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357729-on-primaris-and-the-future-of-40k/page/5/#findComment-5371878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Thunder warriors weren't part of the project, they came before it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357729-on-primaris-and-the-future-of-40k/page/5/#findComment-5371882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted August 21, 2019 Author Share Posted August 21, 2019 Thunder warriors weren't part of the project, they came before it.Unless something changed in the lore (or I remember it wrong), they relied on the same method of enhancement, only it was less refined thus less stable. They are to the Astartes what Astartes are to Custodes in terms of individual refinement, but they same uplifting of humanity via implantation was there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357729-on-primaris-and-the-future-of-40k/page/5/#findComment-5371900 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Whilst they were genetically and surgically enhanced, they didnt have geneseed and organs derived from the primaris project, so the methodology was different. They were also unstable compared to a space marine, suffering mental instability and physical breakdown after a century or so. They are described in heresy lore as being a temporary solution, suitable for wars against the techno barbarian groups of pre-unification terra, but not suitable or stable enough for widespread galactic conquest and empire building. They definitely weren't part of the Astartes project, they proceeded both the primarch project and the astartes project. Though i am sure the emperors work on them and the Custodes informed the primarch and astartes projects. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357729-on-primaris-and-the-future-of-40k/page/5/#findComment-5371909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 The Unification Wars lasted almost a millennia. Thunder Warriors were well before the Astartes project. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357729-on-primaris-and-the-future-of-40k/page/5/#findComment-5371922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 You guys can see how “super-soldier development using genetic enhancement and other augments” might just be one overarching train of thought in the Emperor’s mind, right? No, Thunder Warriors weren’t Astartes, Primarchs, or Custodes. Robbienw has already pointed out that it is likely that the Thunder Warriors work informed the Emperor for all the rest of his super-soldier work. The Emperor himself may not even have considered/called them separate “projects” in his mind - I’m not sure we actually have that perspective - the “projects” may have been named prior to/during their development or even after the fact, which may have been by someone other than the Emperor. Actually, do we even have a time frame for when Space Marines/Angels of Death actually began being referred to as Astartes? It doesn’t seem they were necessarily an Adeptus at first - I know we have the name Legions Astartes early on. Personally I’m hesitant to define even the Primarchs as the “best the Emperor could do.” We actually don’t know for sure they were the best he could do - perhaps there were outside constraints he had even in their development (considering some of the differing genetic variants he encoded, even the Primarchs may have been somewhat of an experimental thing for the Emperor) or things he just didn’t foresee properly. Given a second chance, perhaps the Emperor could improve even on the Primarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357729-on-primaris-and-the-future-of-40k/page/5/#findComment-5372033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermintide Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 The Emperor didn't have the same concerns with the Custodes and, even less, the Primarchs, which are his true masterpieces. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, the Custodes aren't even any variant of Marine. They're just dead 'ard bastards. Guardsmen on bath salts. Are they supposed to be genetically engineered or not? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357729-on-primaris-and-the-future-of-40k/page/5/#findComment-5372044 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gederas Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 The Emperor didn't have the same concerns with the Custodes and, even less, the Primarchs, which are his true masterpieces. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, the Custodes aren't even any variant of Marine. They're just dead 'ard bastards. Guardsmen on bath salts. Are they supposed to be genetically engineered or not? The Custodes were originally the children of kings and chieftains that were offered up to the Emperor, and were genetically screened to see if they were better than baseline humans. They're genetically augmented since birth to be superhuman. Yes, they're genetically engineered, to an even higher extent than Marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357729-on-primaris-and-the-future-of-40k/page/5/#findComment-5372045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted August 21, 2019 Author Share Posted August 21, 2019 The Emperor didn't have the same concerns with the Custodes and, even less, the Primarchs, which are his true masterpieces. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, the Custodes aren't even any variant of Marine. They're just dead 'ard bastards. Guardsmen on bath salts. Are they supposed to be genetically engineered or not? The Custodes were originally the children of kings and chieftains that were offered up to the Emperor, and were genetically screened to see if they were better than baseline humans. They're genetically augmented since birth to be superhuman. Yes, they're genetically engineered, to an even higher extent than Marines. Modern Custodes are taken from Noble Families and if 1 in 100 human can be an Astartes, 1 in 1000 can be a Custodes. They're that hard to produce because they're reworked from the genetic level on up (and strangely are never psykers or bothered by the presence of blanks). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357729-on-primaris-and-the-future-of-40k/page/5/#findComment-5372064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ascanius Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 My problem isn't the rules or the models, I'm with arch warhammer on this one,Yikes. it's the lore. IF they had said the emperor himself went to cawl, handed over his genetic research on astartes development, like he did with corax, and said finish my work as I am to busy with my shiny new chair. I would have been understanding....however what they did put in the lore was a primarch going to cawl and saying "hey this is what my dad managed to pull off after centuries of work, start from scratch and remake it and do a better job than the emperor."You are not correctly describing the lore (much like ArchWarhammer). Right from the start, the Primaris narrative was that Belisarius Cawl had been part of* the Emperor's Astartes project, and that after or during the Scouring Guilliman had charged him to see if he could improve upon it, but it took thousands of years. He didn't start from scratch; he was given the Sangprimus Portum, containing genetic data from the Primarchs, in order to give him a leg-up in his work (presumably something similar to, if not the same as, the archival data Corax accessed). The 8th Edition core book specifically says "it had taken Cawl nearly ten thousand years to finish his work." That's not remotely comparable to what the Emperor achieved in a century or two. * It has since been retconned in the Horus Heresy novel Wolfsbane that Cawl was not actually part of that project, but that same novel explains how he might have eventually acquired the knowledge from that time: He starts collecting the brains/hard drives of other tech-magi to preserve their knowledge from being lost. Presumably his knowledge of the Emperor's Astartes project comes from a similar source, and perhaps we'll see him acquire it during the Siege of Terra series. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357729-on-primaris-and-the-future-of-40k/page/5/#findComment-5372190 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 As I pointed out in another thread. Cawl was not part of the Astartes Project because he was not Terran nor Selenar. Those are the only two groups who began the Astartes project before the Great Crusade began. By the time of the Siege of Terra only one Selenar genewright is left and she joins Abaddon during the Siege and give the traitors the Selenar lore. Horus’ forces are targeting resources to make new legionaries and the Emperor’s laboratory is far from the palace in the Northern Hemisphere of Terra. Cawl is also promoted to Adept during the Heresy, and a low grade militaris adept at that. He is not a Genator or a Magos Biologis. There is no way Cawl could’ve been involved with the Astartes project until they write him absorbing the memories of someone still alive from Terra or Selenar during the years before the Great Crusade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357729-on-primaris-and-the-future-of-40k/page/5/#findComment-5372193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ascanius Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 There is no way Cawl could’ve been involved with the Astartes project until they write him absorbing the memories of someone still alive from Terra or Selenar during the years before the Great Crusade. Yep. Not beyond the bounds of possibility that the other Selenar gene-witch who's kicking around could fall into Cawl's clutches. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357729-on-primaris-and-the-future-of-40k/page/5/#findComment-5372195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ascanius Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 As for the Custodes, they are described as having been genetically perfected by hand, as opposed to the mass-production method used for Astartes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357729-on-primaris-and-the-future-of-40k/page/5/#findComment-5372196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 In Master of Mankind, iirc, their genetic code is literally rewritten by the Emperor himself. Space marines just get a one sized fits all box set. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357729-on-primaris-and-the-future-of-40k/page/5/#findComment-5372202 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted August 21, 2019 Author Share Posted August 21, 2019 And it's worth noting that none of the Emperor's post-human creations where a future for humanity, so whatever he planned for humanity as part of it's awakening as a psychic race safe from the touch of Chaos was presumably even greater than the things he created to serve as a means to the end. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357729-on-primaris-and-the-future-of-40k/page/5/#findComment-5372205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volt Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 And it's worth noting that none of the Emperor's post-human creations where a future for humanity, so whatever he planned for humanity as part of it's awakening as a psychic race safe from the touch of Chaos was presumably even greater than the things he created to serve as a means to the end. Homo psychica is probably just a beta+ version of humanity instead of having any genetic enhancement. Although with that said, Beta + psykers don't need any enhancements as they are well thin the "snap fingers and send the titan flying a hundred meters" scale of power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357729-on-primaris-and-the-future-of-40k/page/5/#findComment-5372245 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chapter master 454 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 Pretty sure the attrition rate is higher than 1:1000 for custodes. They REALLY hammer their trainees. Because they are taken as babies and then with art bordering magic (as they are that advanced) are lifted beyond what is even normal. Basically if you could put a marine through the marine process again, you would get custode level and even then it would fall short. Bio-engineered and armoured so heavily against the warp they can literally overcome the effects of it by themselves that could be considered dismissal. From there, they are trained harder than marines because each one ain't just a warrior. They are master assassins, master diplomats, master tacticians, master at arms (all weapons), master historians. What they don't know is a shorter list to recite than what they know. And even then...the Emperor likely had plans for the custodes. Even these Demi-gods of war, each one even as a new recruit who would make a space marine captain look like an infant in combat, were likely just another stepping stone. Ironic. Of those that preach the Emperor, those who serve him, he would likely care more for the death of a guardsman than any other single creation he made including his primarchs. The only thing he wasn't wanting to expend was humanity. Yet...in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, Guardsmen die by the trillion every solar day. Every Solar day another human is put through suffering greater than anything that could be imagined by their own race. The ones who are forgotten, are the ones remembered by the Emperor...because who else will? ANYWAY. Primaris keep coming. Maybe one day we will return to the good ol' days where we have tons of options and not have to be content with whats in the box being law. Will comment that poses are nicer these days because each one is more on purpose now...not a variant of "I squat this way" "I squat that way" and "oh for emperors sake he fell over while setting and didn't notice til too late and now he has a perma-lean that makes him look like he had a stroke". The same goes also for gun holding of "I hold it hip high", "I hold mine like I am firing" and "was it 2 to 4 or 2 to 6...I can't remember which arm matched that gun so I made it work but the shoulder didn't like it so now he looks like a contortionist!" Also...people keep saying GW are just a model company. Ahem...models sell about 100% less well if there ain't a good game behind them. Seriously. They are a model company whose method of selling the models is through a tabletop game. Bethesda have people still playing Morrowind for goodness sake despite the age thanks to mods. Yes, you are a model company. But there is a time and place for sayings such as "have your cake and eat it" because in this case, without the game GW dies. It is as much a games company now as it is a model company. Without models, it dies. Without the game, it dies. They are far too interlocked to just discredit one part of it. For crying out loud guys, we are having an adamant conversation about the game here in this topic that has been rehashed about 20 times now since primaris appeared and each one went on for what? 20 pages each or something before the mods had to step in due to a few fraters bickering too much or the thread just went round in circles like a one legged duck! Sorry, not been as active on the B&C as much so I think I just unloaded what was a combination of something like 3-4 threads i have only had time to read out into one...my B. But Feels better now. (could always push Black Templar buttons to keep things fresh ;)) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357729-on-primaris-and-the-future-of-40k/page/5/#findComment-5372303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 DAoT humanity made a lot of stuff miles more powerful than what the Emperor was capable of making. I have the impression that a DAoT maintenance bot was the equivalent of a SM squad or a Custodes. Could you imagine their combat droids? Not strange that a Mechanicum prodigy could moderately improve upon the Emperor's work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357729-on-primaris-and-the-future-of-40k/page/5/#findComment-5372342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomMarine Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 DAoT humanity made a lot of stuff miles more powerful than what the Emperor was capable of making. I have the impression that a DAoT maintenance bot was the equivalent of a SM squad or a Custodes. Could you imagine their combat droids? Not strange that a Mechanicum prodigy could moderately improve upon the Emperor's work. This so much, during the DOAT a bane blade was considered a light tank, the castigator titan had such fluid movements it seemed organic, the death of integrity (DOAT AI) found a admech arch magos's level of knowledge and ignorance so depressing it left the galaxy, humanity created chronovores that actually eat time itself and when you die by them you essentially have never existed Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357729-on-primaris-and-the-future-of-40k/page/5/#findComment-5372382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Closet Skeleton Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 The original fluff had a spokesmen for a whole team of workers explaining the space marine organs to the Emperor as though he knew nothing. The idea that the Emperor was a super genius who did everything is my least favorite retcon in 40k. I'm not a big fan of the Forgeworld Black Books claim that the Emperor himself is just another artificial genetic superman but it does limit the argument that nobody should be as good at making superhumans. There is no way Cawl could’ve been involved with the Astartes project until they write him absorbing the memories of someone still alive from Terra or Selenar during the years before the Great Crusade. This is a canon conflict between the 40k background and the Horus Heresy novels and wouldn't be the first one. The Admech codex is pretty clear that Cawl was part of the original project that created the Astartes organs. The 'Belasarius Cawl' in Wolfsbane isn't the 40k Cawl who is a mostly artificial hive mind with at least 3 brains. The conflicting Cawl background is far from irreconcilable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357729-on-primaris-and-the-future-of-40k/page/5/#findComment-5372398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 It would require the Emperor to go to Mars decades before he actually did. Because again, Cawl is a Martian. Martians didn’t work on the Astartes Project. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357729-on-primaris-and-the-future-of-40k/page/5/#findComment-5372417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 I've always liked to think Custodes are made via a very similar process to the Men of Gold who ruled the human federation prior to the Age of Strife. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357729-on-primaris-and-the-future-of-40k/page/5/#findComment-5372432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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