On Primaris and the future of 40k

[BitsHammer]

How in the world are Primaris like Tau? Even before the update they fight like a close range army that balances shootimg and melee. Tau are a long ranged army that flunk melee outside of the Eight.

[Ishagu]

Primaris are nothing like Tau.

 

I'll point out that the Ultramarines have a few strats which give Tau like abilities (multi-unit overwatch), but the armies are generally nothing alike.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yeah, they're not like Tau, any more than the Orks are like Black Templars just because they both like close combat.

[Vermintide]

To play devil's advocate, the current range of units certainly focuses on shooting. It has melee capabilities, but that's more of a "they can hold their own if they have to" kind of deal. There are no real options beyond a power sword here and there- You just happen to get a bunch of S4 attacks.

 

But then that's how vanilla marines have always played. You want to shoot things, and aside from certain powerful characters, you only really charge to finish the job your bolters didn't.

 

And let's say nothing about certain other imperial factions who share actual similarities with Tau- Weak, cheap infantry, sub par ballistic skill, but lots of shooting to make up for it...

[Ciler]

On this topic I'm going to repeat what I said two years ago when people started saying that classic/old marines were going the way of the dodo.

 

I do not believe that will be the case, not strictly. They may, as rules go, eventually be made redundant (as in there will always be a primaris unit doing the same job better or for less points), but I do not expect them to be altogether removed from the rules. Why not ? Because the second the tactical space marine disappears from the rules, he becomes an intercessor models for all intends and purposes...

 

So no, classic marines will not lose rule support in the short nor medium term, because maintaining that support means that existing marine players have to buy into the new model range to expand their armies.

 

I feel the new codex goes supports this reading : no classical units have disappeared or been downscaled in terms of options, and a classic marine army remains somewhat competitive thanks to point drops and better stratagems.

[BitsHammer]

To play devil's advocate, the current range of units certainly focuses on shooting. It has melee capabilities, but that's more of a "they can hold their own if they have to" kind of deal. There are no real options beyond a power sword here and there- You just happen to get a bunch of S4 attacks.

 

But then that's how vanilla marines have always played. You want to shoot things, and aside from certain powerful characters, you only really charge to finish the job your bolters didn't.

 

And let's say nothing about certain other imperial factions who share actual similarities with Tau- Weak, cheap infantry, sub par ballistic skill, but lots of shooting to make up for it...

Intercessors can bring a chainsword, power sword, Powerfist, or thunder hammer on the sergeant. And Aggressors can fight as well as a regular Terminator (we have a ways to go for assault terminator equiv, but we also don't have much in the way of Gravis).

 

And that's not counting relic access.

[TorvaldTheMild]

How in the world are Primaris like Tau? Even before the update they fight like a close range army that balances shootimg and melee. Tau are a long ranged army that flunk melee outside of the Eight.

The gunline, the rules are similar, the disruptive kind of rules that is, the lack of options in favour of units doing specific jobs etc.  I just get a tau vibe from them.

Edited August 27, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[Bryan Blaire]

the lack of options in favour of units doing specific jobs etc.

That was an Eldar thing an Edition or two before it was a Tau thing... do the Primaris give off an Eldar vibe as well?

 

The minimal squad options also likely helps for game balance purposes - if you only have to work on rules and odds for four to nine guys all doing the same thing, and only the leader possibly being different, if they only have three options, then that's easier to work with balance variable-wise. For Tactical Squads, you've got at least three guys with bolters and then one guy having up to ten options and doing something completely different, and then the seargent having a load of options. Tack on four more guys with bolters, one guy drops to four options and another guy gets six options, and then the list for the sergeant after that - each combination possibly able to do different things. The math is just higher for the older Tactical squad, which would lead to balance complications across the army in comparison to other armies, etc. - plus the reduced options for Primaris apparently also more closely mimic the old Legion squad styles (I never played 30K, so that's just what I have heard others comment about).

[BitsHammer]

I'd argue the single role let squad harkens most to the 30k roots the Primaris have and are built around.

 

Cawl started the project during the Scouring and ran it for at least 10k years (yay unreliable calendars) so chances are he never stopped to adjust his original plan back then and instead organized them as if he was supplying legions.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Tau have a lack of options? The basic infantry, maybe, but their Battlesuits have an amazing number of options, possibly one of the most versatile units in the game.

 

 

To play devil's advocate, the current range of units certainly focuses on shooting. It has melee capabilities, but that's more of a "they can hold their own if they have to" kind of deal. There are no real options beyond a power sword here and there- You just happen to get a bunch of S4 attacks.

But then that's how vanilla marines have always played. You want to shoot things, and aside from certain powerful characters, you only really charge to finish the job your bolters didn't.

And let's say nothing about certain other imperial factions who share actual similarities with Tau- Weak, cheap infantry, sub par ballistic skill, but lots of shooting to make up for it...

 

And to play Devils Advocate to your devilry advocation, if the Primaris don't have melee capabilities, then neither do the Orks. After all, they just get a bunch of S4 attacks, with a power klaw here and there, no real options beyond that. 

Edited August 28, 2019 by Lord_Caerolion

[Ishagu]

 

 

How in the world are Primaris like Tau? Even before the update they fight like a close range army that balances shootimg and melee. Tau are a long ranged army that flunk melee outside of the Eight.

The gunline, the rules are similar, the disruptive kind of rules that is, the lack of options in favour of units doing specific jobs etc. I just get a tau vibe from them.

Tau have a huge number of options. They operate at different ranges from Astartes.

Eldar have more specialised units, as do Necrons, Orks, Dark Eldar, GSC... Are they all like Tau?

 

There are superficial similarities between all armies. Primaris are no more like Tau than Necrons are.

The Primaris have a stronger similarity to Horus Heresy Astartes.

 

Also Primaris are better at close combat than any non specialised chapter (BA, SW) has ever been before. Lots of attacks, ways to increase the quality and power. Units like Aggressors are more offensive in cc than Terminators. Cheap White Scar Reivers can hit you with 41 Str4 Ap-1 D2 attacks. Characters can be augmented to be able to destroy a Knight in a single assault phase. How is this not having cc capability??

Edited August 28, 2019 by Ishagu

[MegaVolt87]

Yeah don't see how primaris are lacking melee ability since the new SM books. Vet intercessors on par combat wise with assault marines for dmg IMO as an example.

[Ciler]

Yeah don't see how primaris are lacking melee ability since the new SM books. Vet intercessors on par combat wise with assault marines for dmg IMO as an example.

They lack melee ability in so far that an assault marine is and has for a while been considered a lacklustre melee unit.

 

How do vet intercessors compare to units that are actually considered good in melee : BA death company ? Necron specters ? Khorne berserkers ? ork boyz ?

[Ishagu]

They compare very well. Big volume of attacks, can gain access to an AP modifier and are mandatory troops.

[FelipeFlops]

 

Yeah don't see how primaris are lacking melee ability since the new SM books. Vet intercessors on par combat wise with assault marines for dmg IMO as an example.

They lack melee ability in so far that an assault marine is and has for a while been considered a lacklustre melee unit.

 

How do vet intercessors compare to units that are actually considered good in melee : BA death company ? Necron specters ? Khorne berserkers ? ork boyz ?

 

 

They can pack a punch now and shouldn't be compared to Assault Marines. Vet. Intercessors will get 4 attacks on the charge and the Sgt., who can now take a Thunder Hammer, will get 5 attacks. This is before any psychic powers and further stratagems, that I believe can get the Sgt. up to 7 attacks. Nothing to turn your nose up against.

 

You are of course getting this on top of some excellent shooting. 

[Gederas]

They compare very well. Big volume of attacks, can gain access to an AP modifier and are mandatory troops.

Okay, Ishagu. That is COMPLETE Bull and you know it.

 

Veteran Intercessors only have ONE AP modifier weapon on the sergeant. Yes, they have a decent amount of attacks. But so do my Khorne Berzerkers. And you know what? My Berzerkers are all Strength 5 minimum, 6 with their Chainaxe and still have their chainsword at S5. And are ALSO Mandatory Troops for my World Eaters.

 

A squad of veteran intercessors is a good melee unit in the sense of they can POTENTIALLY kill something. They aren't a good melee unit in the sense of them being to ACTUALLY kill something every time they fight.

 

Because a 5-man squad has, on the charge, 16 attacks (17 if the Sergeant has a chainsword) at Strength 4, AP 0 1 Damage (barring the Sergeant if he takes a Power Weapon). That's an 'okay' number of attacks, but not enough numbers where it matters. Yes, you can kill anything weaker than a Marine in melee. But... Come on. WHO CAN'T?

Edited August 28, 2019 by Gederas

[Ishagu]

In round 3, 10 Veteran Intercessor can have 41 Attacks at ap-1 with no weapon upgrades on them...

 

You can use a Strat to put them in the assault doctrine at any time too.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Ishagu

[Gederas]

In round 3, 10 Veteran Intercessor can have 41 Attacks at ap-1 with no weapon upgrades on them...

 

You can use a Strat to put them in the assault doctrine at any time too.

And on ROUND 1 a squad of 10 Berzerkers is packing, on their first fight (because they fight twice if you don't remember), 5 S10 AP-3 Dd3, 36 S6 AP-1 D1, and 10 S5 AP0 D1 attacks. And then they fight again for 4 5 S10 AP-3 Dd3, 27 S6 AP-1 D1, and 10 S5 AP0 D1 attacks.

 

For a grand total of 9 S10 AP-3 Dd3, 63 S6 AP-1 D1 and 20 S5 AP0 D1 attacks for their whole fight phase. Which is before the Veteran Intercessors fight if the Berzerkers charge first.

 

I'll give you the point regarding the doctrine giving them an AP of -1, but.... It's almost like those 10 Veteran Intercessors are still FAR WORSE than the Berzerkers in melee.

 

And yes, I'm using Berzerkers because they're honestly the perfect example of what a dedicated assault squad SHOULD BE. Which is to combine quantity and quality of attacks. As of right now, even with that doctrine, Veteran Intercessors are running off of the "if you throw enough at the wall, something will stick" strategy. Which, while okay, isn't really a good way to run at things.

 

And here's the other thing:

 

How many command points does it take to make them that good in melee? Because Berzerkers take a grand total of 0

Edited August 28, 2019 by Gederas

[BitsHammer]

While Berserkers are clearly a better melee unit, for the loyalists the best melee troop choice would have to be Veteran Intercessors for anyone who doesn't run melee Crusader squads (and even then the Intercessors lose less of their ranged output to punch people in the face).

 

Yes, there are better melee options, but for the troops slot in a loyalist Marine army you'd be hard pressed to have a harder melee unit.

[Gederas]

While Berserkers are clearly a better melee unit, for the loyalists the best melee troop choice would have to be Veteran Intercessors for anyone who doesn't run melee Crusader squads (and even then the Intercessors lose less of their ranged output to punch people in the face).

 

Yes, there are better melee options, but for the troops slot in a loyalist Marine army you'd be hard pressed to have a harder melee unit.

I mean, outside of a dedicated melee army, you're not looking in the Troops slot for a melee unit.

 

The thing is this: Unless Primaris get a unit that DOESN'T REQUIRE COMMAND POINTS OR OUTSIDE BONUSES TO BE EFFECTIVE IN MELEE, they don't have good melee capabilities. Because as soon as you're using multiple Command Points or bonuses to make a unit effective in melee, all it's doing is showing you're forced to waste resources to plug a gap that should be filled by a dedicated unit.

[BitsHammer]

Without spending CP Intercessors are still better at melee than Tacticals and Scouts.

 

I'm not arguing they're the best thing in the world, but they aren't bad.

 

Aggressors hit much like a unit of Tactical Terminators, and Reivers hit like Assault Marines (the new Phobos boys hit more like melee Scouts).

 

Marines have few and far between really good melee units (and other armies do it better). I suspect when we see a Gravis update (likely next year) is when we'll see the Thunderhammer/Stormshield combo.

 

What I really want is Breacher Shields and a cut down Auto Bolt Rifle the unit could fire in melee, but that's just the Imperial Fist in me talking.

[Gederas]

Without spending CP Intercessors are still better at melee than Tacticals and Scouts.

 

I'm not arguing they're the best thing in the world, but they aren't bad.

 

Aggressors hit much like a unit of Tactical Terminators, and Reivers hit like Assault Marines (the new Phobos boys hit more like melee Scouts).

 

Marines have few and far between really good melee units (and other armies do it better). I suspect when we see a Gravis update (likely next year) is when we'll see the Thunderhammer/Stormshield combo.

 

What I really want is Breacher Shields and a cut down Auto Bolt Rifle the unit could fire in melee, but that's just the Imperial Fist in me talking.

I mean, "better at melee than Tacticals and Scouts" isn't saying much mate :lol:

 

But yes, I do want to see a proper, dedicated melee unit for Primaris and not "Oh, well just spend a command point and make Intercessors Veterans". I don't want to spend Command Points on something that might not even matter. I want a squad of Primaris with proper melee weapons.

 

That last one just sounds badass though. I never realized how much I needed that in my life until just now :lol:

[Ishagu]

I don't think that the standard marine codex has ever had any true quality melee.

 

They're better now than they've ever been. And yes, dedicated units like Khorne Berserkers are better, but there's something to be said when you have an army with basic troops who shoot pretty darn well and can now erase units with lots of dice in melee.

[Vermintide]

I never said Primaris are lacking in melee ability. They can and do punch pretty hard- If they have to.

I said they are lacking in options, which is objectively true. I don't think anyone is specifically taking Intercessor squads with a TH sarge as hard hitting melee troops. Nobody is building their list around how good Aggressors are on the charge. Nobody is thinking "Ahh, I'll leave the Death Company at home, I have Reivers!"

 

Primaris might be legitimately good in melee since the new rules came out, but that's only because of a rules change buff, the design philosophy remains the same. What happens if the new round of codex gives most every other army +1A on their charges too? Suddenly they suck again.

 

And again, I like the change- It's very fluffy for Marines to play that way, well balanced in CC and range. But I'm a Blood Angel, I want to something more up close and personal too

 

[Ishagu]

Options of wargear? That matters very little I find for unit effectiveness.

 

To what units are you referring that you think are lacking?