Tau win NOVA

[Bat33.1]

A Tau triple riptide list won NOVA open beating a GSC list 33-12

 

By effective use of drones the Tau player kept control of the GSC army and never allowed it into his castle of Riptides, commanders and fire warriors. It was an interesting game to watch purely to see how GSC can be neutralized by solid screening. GSC were a popular army at the event though and doing well with one in the final and the Tau player beating another GSC list to make the final.

[Morticon]

Thanks for the heads up.   Man, I realise my biases....but....i despise despise Tau.  Props to the player though.

[The Yncarne]

It is too bad it was another castle. Would love to see mobility return.

[Bryan Blaire]

It is too bad it was another castle. Would love to see mobility return.

Until rules start benefiting movement more than standing still, it probably won't.

[Closet Skeleton]

 GSC can wipe those screens easily with mortars, leadership debuffs and having a first wave to sacrifice. It comes down to skill vs skill and luck in the end though.

 

 

It is too bad it was another castle. Would love to see mobility return.

Until rules start benefiting movement more than standing still, it probably won't.

 

The Tau triple Riptide castle is actually super mobile due to the ability to over-charge the jet packs and the coldstars who hide inside, it just doesn't move until it has killed enough to be able to control the board with limited models.

 

But its still a boring army I hate fighting, especially since it neuters close combat armies largely incidentally.

 

Its terrain and missions that benefits moving not rules.

[m0nolith]

"A Tau triple riptide list won NOVA"

 

...This is why I play 30k.

[Panzer]

I really hate castle T'au lists but that's GW to blame for since so many effects require T'au to be stationary or close to eachother unfortunately. However my focus is more on the GSC matchup. I've seen it a few times now but it seems that while GSC are really strong that they have huge problems against people who know how to handle them and don't allow them to get into their lines by denying them deep strike space.

[Bryan Blaire]

Its terrain and missions that benefits moving not rules.

And then if there were game rules, unit rules, and more Strategems for each faction that provided benefits for moving, it's like terrain, missions, AND rules would all have benefits for movement. :O

 

Shocking how that could work.

 

:facepalm:

 

I'm not saying that it's like that currently - it would take some designers at GW working on it creatively.

[Closet Skeleton]

The Tau codex does contain rules that benefit movement like rapid fire guns that get an extra shot close up, a stratagem that bolster unit that deepstrike, fusion weapons that do extra damage close, a once per game commander power that removes penalties for moving, a troops choice that hits harder the closer it is, a stratagem that lets stealth suits teleport in limited situations, a subfaction trait that lets them run and use rapid fire weapons, a support system that removes movement penalties on heavy and rapid fire, they even have a fast moving assault units in kroothounds.

 

The only thing they're missing is an easy way to jump shoot jump (outside of riptides who are going to be castling most of the time) or jump out of a moving devilfish. Its just that the castling is necessary to protect the riptides which have ridiculous firepower but aren't undercosted so if you take 3 you can't afford a balanced army with fast moving elements.

 

Having the post powerful units in an army be ones that are great at moving just leads to Alaitoc flyer spam. Its not that Eldar firebases/Tau fast units are awful its that top tier play favours extremes.

[Bryan Blaire]

for each faction

:facepalm:

 

Yes, Tau have some rules that benefit from moving. Not all factions do, so many games and most armies tend to be more static because the game isn't designed to reward movement for the most part, and you get more results from remaining in place most of the time.

[Trevak Dal]

 

It is too bad it was another castle. Would love to see mobility return.

Until rules start benefiting movement more than standing still, it probably won't.

Give me back Jump shoot Jump on my Enclave crisis suits and stealth suits (and +1 to hit in combat for all Enclave units), and I will be On The Bounce.

[Bat33.1]

Richard Siegler was the Tau player and apparantly his normal play is to aggressively take the mid table but the terrain made this difficult with two large L shaped buildings forming a tunnel of death in the centre of the table so he just let the GSC player walk onto his guns and shield drone screen until last couple of turns when he needed to move to pick up objectives points. GSC were pretty much wiped by then with only a few stragglers surviving.

 

Richard beat a GSC list in his previous game 33-0 so had the practice too.

 

There is a Tau tank list that is supposed to be very strong now and doing well and that does require movement to play well but watching a castle be that Tau, Ad Mech, or even some of the Custodes triple caladius grav tank lists that just sat back until the opponent was crippled are no fun to watch at all. I hope GW can find some way to reward movement, maelstrom even with it's faults would help to make players bring more mobile lists if they need to cross the table to score points sitting back is no use.

 

one other thing I would take out of NOVA was that despite GSC's strengths it's an incredibly difficult army to play well, Nick Nanavati failed to make the cut after losing 2 games with them. They seem to overwhelm some armies but have some really difficult match ups where a small mistake has them struggling to make an impact.

[Aothaine]

Really happy for the T'au! I know people really dislike this.. but this play-style is baked into their background. An army playing like it's lore is awesome! The new Space Marine dex is showing this to be true as well.

[Lord Marshal]

Really happy for the T'au! I know people really dislike this.. but this play-style is baked into their background. An army playing like it's lore is awesome! The new Space Marine dex is showing this to be true as well.

 

If this was an Imperial Knight list as opposed to Tau Riptides I doubt we'd be seeing so many sour grapes.

[h0U5e]

The most recent Art of War podcast (on Frontline Gaming) features Richard Siegler talking about his iterations of playing Tau. The interview is recorded pre NOVA.

What I found really interesting is how he builds for the late game. His goal isn't to blow his opponent off the board in the first 2-3 turns. He wants to keep his 3 Commanders and 3 Riptides shooting for all 6 turns of the game and says the movement phase is the most important phase for Tau. Using Pathfinders to move block Knights can be game winning. 

He takes movement based secondaries and is okay giving up kill more for the first few turns as he will likely have hold more early.
 

Definitely worth a listen if you are curious about how to win as Tau or how to beat them. Unfortunately part 2 that delves into match ups is behind a paywall.

[Ishagu]

I think shield drones need a nerf.

[Morticon]

mates and I were talking about this in the gaming group.  4+ to pass the wound would be perfect. 

[Ishagu]

Yeah that might work. The problem with them currently is that they are:

 

-perhaps too powerful

-more importantly, not fun at all to play against

[Morticon]

 

Really happy for the T'au! I know people really dislike this.. but this play-style is baked into their background. An army playing like it's lore is awesome! The new Space Marine dex is showing this to be true as well.

 

If this was an Imperial Knight list as opposed to Tau Riptides I doubt we'd be seeing so many sour grapes.

 

 

On a personal level, Knights are also super annoying to be honest- mainly on account of their ability to force certain playstyles against them, invalidate certain tactics, as well as the majority of your weapons.  However, as annoying as they, are they are still more dynamic to play with and against than Drone-castle Tau-Sept Tau.

 

While this playstyle is baked into their background, fighting this build is the least fun 40k experience I've ever had - and I know I'm not alone in thinking this. 

 

I do know fluff players (ork and nid players in particular) that love the idea of a 40k-style castle defense game, where hordes and hordes attack and get mowed down - but for competitive games (not even tournaments), being outranged, outgunned and unable to close the distance, and then being wiped out en route into combat when you eventually do...is more than frustrating. 

 

You cant hide thanks to SMS, you cant claim cover either, so you cant even be sneaky in your playstyle because of the tools available. 

 

An army that invalidates so many builds, so many playstyles and is a hard counter to so many basic lists,builds and styles of play is just dull, dull dull.

 

I don't believe this is the Tau players' fault.  I honestly think its a massive flaw of the design of the dex; The top tier Tau lists are near identical (tournament format dependent!). 

 

It is conjecture, but I HONESTLY believe that the only reason you dont see more Tau in the top 3 is because the top-top players just find their playstyle too dull.  There's nothing new, exciting or challenging.  So, I believe more top players dont bother with them.     

 

I say all of this with an obvious personal bias as a combat army player, and without wanting to take away from good, strong generalship that sees a player smash at a tournament - but, while that is said....its hard to be completely in awe when these lists really do play themselves.  

[Guest Triszin]

mates and I were talking about this in the gaming group.  4+ to pass the wound would be perfect. 

4+ to pass it.

 

and with "drone controller" it should be a 3+.

 

as it gives a reason to take drone controller.

[Tyriks]

 

 

Really happy for the T'au! I know people really dislike this.. but this play-style is baked into their background. An army playing like it's lore is awesome! The new Space Marine dex is showing this to be true as well.

 

 

If this was an Imperial Knight list as opposed to Tau Riptides I doubt we'd be seeing so many sour grapes.

 

On a personal level, Knights are also super annoying to be honest- mainly on account of their ability to force certain playstyles against them, invalidate certain tactics, as well as the majority of your weapons.  However, as annoying as they, are they are still more dynamic to play with and against than Drone-castle Tau-Sept Tau.

While this playstyle is baked into their background, fighting this build is the least fun 40k experience I've ever had - and I know I'm not alone in thinking this. 

I do know fluff players (ork and nid players in particular) that love the idea of a 40k-style castle defense game, where hordes and hordes attack and get mowed down - but for competitive games (not even tournaments), being outranged, outgunned and unable to close the distance, and then being wiped out en route into combat when you eventually do...is more than frustrating. 

You cant hide thanks to SMS, you cant claim cover either, so you cant even be sneaky in your playstyle because of the tools available. 

 

An army that invalidates so many builds, so many playstyles and is a hard counter to so many basic lists,builds and styles of play is just dull, dull dull.

I don't believe this is the Tau players' fault.  I honestly think its a massive flaw of the design of the dex; The top tier Tau lists are near identical (tournament format dependent!). 

 

It is conjecture, but I HONESTLY believe that the only reason you dont see more Tau in the top 3 is because the top-top players just find their playstyle too dull.  There's nothing new, exciting or challenging.  So, I believe more top players dont bother with them.     

 

 

I say all of this with an obvious personal bias as a combat army player, and without wanting to take away from good, strong generalship that sees a player smash at a tournament - but, while that is said....its hard to be completely in awe when these lists really do play themselves.

I agree with your points, but I also hear tons of complaints about Knights right now.

[Morticon]

Agree! Knights are another personal bugbear to be honest.  Again, because it forces (more heavily than I've ever seen in 22 years of gaming) you into a way of building (not even playing) against it.  40k has always had an element of Rock/Paper/Scissors - i feel that Knights make too many enemy lists scissors to their rock - they're not unbeatable - nowhere near, they just force you to beat them in a very particular way.  But, that's not a convo for now. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

One thing to keep in mind is NOVA missions don’t work exactly like ITC Missions with less emphasis on kill more enemy units. Also the Tau player regularly plays one of the top ranked ITC GSC players so I’m sure that experience was a big boon for him going into this event.

 

I agree shield drones are too good... just seems like competitive 40k is becoming less interactive every day.

[chapter master 454]

Wow. Lots of doomsaying and naysaying going on, good heavens. In the near and now present of the 21st century, there is only despair huh?

"One little tau list wins a tournament and the playerbase got scared, "we want to nerf drones to oblivion" said the players"

 

Sorry but I do think it a bit silly to have complaints about Tau, the de facto ranged army, being too shooty. I mean...kinda their thing, WS5+ does kinda pigeon hole them harder into the shooting phase than knights tell you to bring lascannons!

 

SMS are certainly one of their stand out weapons on the lighter end while the de-facto unit is surprise surprise the riptide. With an ATS their burst cannon becomes an avenger gatling cannon and knight players chomp at the bit at the dream of having a knight with 2 of them! Sadly, the tau codex kinda only has a few good units. Hammerheads (and longstrike), commanders and Riptides are their only real go to units for actually getting work done, though fire warriors are respectable troop choices that get the job done well and represent the faction perfectly.

The Tau literally only have 3 HQ options with 1 of them being limited to 1 per detachment, the other 2 being the etheral and cadre (there are others but only if you are Tau sept. Another reason that sept is picked so much btw). The Etheral isn't bad but to be fair he is still quite expensive for what is a walking aura that does less than what company commanders can do and cadres are reserved really for gun drone barrages (and outside of that, does NOTHING).

I would comment that the Tau codex is actually kind of top heavy with little to it really. There are cool units in there that would be fun to play but are stifled by odd choices (mainly GWs reluctance to give crisis suits BS3+) and various units having their design being polarising and/or needing gamy tactics to use effectively just removes their fun factor (ghostkeels and their drones for example. You literally would never want to make the drones visible). If the codex could have the power of the units spread out better then we would likely see better reactions. As it stands, Tau are in the same state marines were prior to the new codex which is only 1 version is viable with one variant to it but is basically the same thing (I assume people are talking about a longstrike and friends list).

 

I will stand by it that the results here are nice. I mean, we would be talking trash about GSC if they won. The guy made a read and picked a list that counters the issue, go ahead and charge THIS gunline. You can't skip this firing squad!

[Morticon]

Wow. Lots of doomsaying and naysaying going on, good heavens. In the near and now present of the 21st century, there is only despair huh?

"One little tau list wins a tournament and the playerbase got scared, "we want to nerf drones to oblivion" said the players"

 

 

I cant speak for the player base, only myself, but comments , observations and analysis given above are based on 22 years of non-stop gaming experience, complete with multiple competitive environment games and tournaments since 2nd edition. Casually dismissing them as reactionary underestimates the thought and experience brought to the claims. 

One "little tau list" winning or not winning doesn't change the arguments being made.   

 

The red-herring/strawman echoed by yourself - That the Tau codex is poorly designed in that it has a single playstyle - is not being debated (Though the degree to which people find that single playstyle boring may be). 

The argument is that the strongest, most viable, most successful (by a long way) and therefore most ubiquitous build available to the army is frustrating, un-fun and generally overpowered to play against  - and furthermore that's directly tied to the drone mechanic. 

 

As for the GSC comment- maybe others would, but until I see 2 years of near identical GSC lists doing as well in a variety of competitive environments, I dont think people that know their stuff would be joining in on that pile-on.