Vindicators, worth it with d6 shots?

[durdle-durdle]

I haven’t really seen anyone talking about it, maybe I’m late to the party. But with vindicators going up to d6 shots, they seem very good. You can buy nearly 2.5 vindicators for one repulsor executioner.

 

Unfortunately, I don’t own one yet, so I can’t report on how good they are on tabletop.

 

Can anyone else report on their use of these?

[SickSix]

I noticed this in the codex as well and also noticed no-one talking about this nerf buff.

 

I have 3. Hopefully I can use them in a game soon.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'm already planning on using the two I own in my Iron Hands army. The Executioner has taken a lot of the anti-tank limelight which is probably why not a lot of folks are looking to the Vindi.

[domsto]

One of the biggest problems the Demolisher Cannon has is its Range.

24" isn't much for a Anti Tank gun.

So the Vindicare will most likly die on the Way to his Target.

The second big thing is that there are so many Marine Units which do the Same Job.

Predators,Repulsor,Hellblaster.

So there is no real Spot left for him.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I converted mine into a Laser Destroyer, the extra range is useful, as is shooting twice. I definitely prefer it. Edited September 18, 2019 by Brother Adelard

[TrawlingCleaner]

While 24" isn't huge amounts of range, they do have a threat range at full capability of 34" now. I love vindicators as they always seem to catch people off guard. Yes they're not consistent at all but they're T8 and difficult to get off the board. I have 3 and ran them against a friend's knight and 1 turned it (I admit I was lucky and he shouldn't have deployed it so far forward). With the new devastator buffs I think this is a great, cheap unit for what it can do. There aren't a huge amount of armies that can deal with several T8 models, potentially reducing damage by 1 and has a 5++

[Iron Father Ferrum]

One of the biggest problems the Demolisher Cannon has is its Range.

24" isn't much for a Anti Tank gun.

So the Vindicare will most likly die on the Way to his Target.

The second big thing is that there are so many Marine Units which do the Same Job.

Predators,Repulsor,Hellblaster.

So there is no real Spot left for him.

The other benefits of the Vindicator:

 

1. T8, which improves durability against common S7 & S8 antitank guns.

 

2. Main gun is S10, which wounds gravis Primaris and heavy TDA units on 2+ and every other armored vehicle, including Knights, on 3+.

[NatBrannigan]

First off, excellent profile picture Iron Father Ferrum! Always enjoy a joke at Ishagu's expense, intentional or otherwise

 

I've been looking at Vindicators as well, thinking of adding one to a Primaris army (it could be Primaris guys inside, you don't know!). I don't know if it's left over fear from 7th edition but whenever I use a Leman Russ Demolisher people are terrified of it. Now it's D6 shots (at least the Vindicator is) it might even be usable!

 

Take some heat off my Repulsor and it's nice and cheap. Could be a more subtle winner of the new codex for sure.

 

And you can magnetise it as a Laser Destroyer! Brother Adelard, I owe you a pint.

Edited September 18, 2019 by NatBrannigan

[Race Bannon]

Vindicators have been made better again ^_^

[DesSaboteur]

Although vindicators did get better i still find them to unreliable for a fight. If the roll guaranteed some shots such as d3+3 shots, then it would be a different story. I also dont find the T8 to make much of a difference, I take Land Raiders consistently and my opponents rarely have problems putting wounds on them. 

 

However, due to the potential of the gun, and its ability to take some hits it would probably serve pretty well has a distraction for a few turns to pull heavy weapons off your betters units.

[TrawlingCleaner]

Although vindicators did get better i still find them to unreliable for a fight. If the roll guaranteed some shots such as d3+3 shots, then it would be a different story. I also dont find the T8 to make much of a difference, I take Land Raiders consistently and my opponents rarely have problems putting wounds on them.

 

However, due to the potential of the gun, and its ability to take some hits it would probably serve pretty well has a distraction for a few turns to pull heavy weapons off your betters units.

They work really well as a distraction tbh and as line of sight blocking for centurions or infantry

[MARK0SIAN]

Aside from a higher strength, the vindicator’s weapon profile is either the same or worse (shorter range, less AP) than the Sisters of Battle exorcist tank.

 

You know, the exorcist tank that GW acknowledged was disappointingly unreliable and in need of a reworking/buff before it will be released with the official codex. I’m not sure why they didn’t heed their own acknowledgment and make the vindicator more reliable. It used to be such a great vehicle and now it’s just meh!

[SickSix]

I really do agree that making all template weapons with such a low hit minimum was a mistake. D3+3 for large blasts would be much better. Or things like D6+2 or things like that.

[Kallas]

I really do agree that making all template weapons with such a low hit minimum was a mistake. D3+3 for large blasts would be much better. Or things like D6+2 or things like that.

 

Even if the additional hits were based on unit size, it'd be better. Take the Leviathan's Grav-flux Bombard as a prime example: d3 base shots, with a further d3 for every five full models in a unit (so against the biggest units of 40 Ork Boyz, it's got a potential for 9d3 shots).

 

Take the Demolisher: give it d6 base shots, so it's got a reasonable representation of a full on, accurate shot (six shots 'feels' like the shell is properly on target), and then give it +1 shot per every X models (probably every five full models). It should be pretty devastating vs a big unit, because it'd hit somewhere and there'd be plenty of folks nearby to get hit by the shrapnel and force of the explosion.

[I_Heart_69]

 

 

I really do agree that making all template weapons with such a low hit minimum was a mistake. D3+3 for large blasts would be much better. Or things like D6+2 or things like that.

Even if the additional hits were based on unit size, it'd be better. Take the Leviathan's Grav-flux Bombard as a prime example: d3 base shots, with a further d3 for every five full models in a unit (so against the biggest units of 40 Ork Boyz, it's got a potential for 9d3 shots).

 

Take the Demolisher: give it d6 base shots, so it's got a reasonable representation of a full on, accurate shot (six shots 'feels' like the shell is properly on target), and then give it +1 shot per every X models (probably every five full models). It should be pretty devastating vs a big unit, because it'd hit somewhere and there'd be plenty of folks nearby to get hit by the shrapnel and force of the explosion.

Yes please! Something like that would help soothe the pain of not getting to put down pie plates anymore. God I miss that.

 

I’m trying to run vindicators again now that they have D6 shots, but they’re still really underwhelming.

[Mandragola]

Well iron hands ones might be ok. At least they can roam around independently now, with no minuses to hit. They look a lot better than anyone else's.

 

Trouble is, it's nearly always better to have more shots that do less damage. It gives you flexibility and reliability. Vindicators just aren't any use at all against armies like orks or plaguebearers. The repulsor executioner isn't only good because of its main gun - it's good because it also chucks out about 35 other attacks each turn.

[The Unseen]

Or just flipping the # of hits and the To-Hit roll.

Same average, but your much more likely to get the high damage spikes.

The odds of rolling 6 shots and hitting with all of them is very small.

the odds of hitting and then rolling 6 is 1/12 if your hitting on 4s.

But the odds of whiffing entirely also go up.

 

But large blasts should all have been 2d3 if nothing else.

[durdle-durdle]

Well iron hands ones might be ok. At least they can roam around independently now, with no minuses to hit. They look a lot better than anyone else's.

 

Trouble is, it's nearly always better to have more shots that do less damage. It gives you flexibility and reliability. Vindicators just aren't any use at all against armies like orks or plaguebearers. The repulsor executioner isn't only good because of its main gun - it's good because it also chucks out about 35 other attacks each turn.

That’s a good point about the number of shots, but I look at it as the 2 vindicators having on average 7 good shots and the executioner having 2-4 good shots and a lot of shots to throw at chaff.

 

Killing chaff isn’t something I really struggle with too much as space marines.

[Son of Sacrifice]

I loved them in 7th, and usually ran two. They terrified people. Not the same without that pie plate I feel.

[MARK0SIAN]

I loved them in 7th, and usually ran two. They terrified people. Not the same without that pie plate I feel.

I think the pie plate is one aspect definitely but another is that in 7th it was able to easily deal with lots of units that were otherwise really hard to kill like termies.

 

In 8th edition, practically nothing infantry based is hard to kill with a wide variety of weapons like plasma or simple shot volume. There’s not much need for the vindicator in that role anymore.

[Slasher956]

Aside from a higher strength, the vindicator’s weapon profile is either the same or worse (shorter range, less AP) than the Sisters of Battle exorcist tank.

 

You know, the exorcist tank that GW acknowledged was disappointingly unreliable and in need of a reworking/buff before it will be released with the official codex. I’m not sure why they didn’t heed their own acknowledgment and make the vindicator more reliable. It used to be such a great vehicle and now it’s just meh!

 

Thing is its not just the gun that makes the tank....and the exorcists problem is compounded by the fact that its 90% of the sisters arsenal thats range over 24" (the other 10% is hunter killer missiles!)

 

however yes D6 shots is too swingy for a reliable weapon

Edited September 20, 2019 by Slasher956

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

Aside from a higher strength, the vindicator’s weapon profile is either the same or worse (shorter range, less AP) than the Sisters of Battle exorcist tank.

 

You know, the exorcist tank that GW acknowledged was disappointingly unreliable and in need of a reworking/buff before it will be released with the official codex. I’m not sure why they didn’t heed their own acknowledgment and make the vindicator more reliable. It used to be such a great vehicle and now it’s just meh!

Thing is its not just the gun that makes the tank....and the exorcists problem is compounded by the fact that its 90% of the sisters arsenal thats range over 24" (the other 10% is hunter killer missiles!)

 

however yes D6 shots is too swingy for a reliable weapon

I accept the sisters lack a lot of long range firepower compared to marines but every criticism GW accepted and published about the exorcist also applies to the vindicator. The rest of the chassis is the same for the vehicle and in many ways the vindicator is worse (range, Ap, until recently couldn’t be affected by Chapter tactics).

 

The main point though is if GW says those rules are not reliable/good/fun enough for one vehicle, that should also apply to every other vehicle with near identical rules. Just because the army in question has easy access to alternate vehicles doesn’t make it ok to leave that one vehicle lagging whilst another near identical vehicle in another army is sent back to the drawing board for improvement.

[Slasher956]

Oh I agree with you totally, I was just putting forth the argument that the only reason why the exorcist is ‘bad’ is it’s lack of compition

[Rodrick]

Vindicators even with IH super doctrine suck imho Edited September 20, 2019 by Iron Father Ferrum
Just keeping it family friendly.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I feel that something is getting lost here in the discussion, and that's the intended target of the Demolisher Cannon. In previous editions, the pie plate and kill-all-things S&AP made it a great anti-infantry weapon; it could kill small elite squads and big blobs with equal aplomb. It seems like everyone is still looking at it purely through that lens and if you are, you're wrong.

 

It's not a troop-killer anymore. It's a tank destroyer. Oh no, d6 shots is "unreliable?" A lascannon, krak missile, or multimelta only get one shot. The Demo Cannon has a higher Strength than all of those and roughly equivalent AP across the board. The only reason to shoot this thing at infantry is if they're T5 and you have no vehicular targets in range.