Vindicators, worth it with d6 shots?

[MARK0SIAN]

I feel that something is getting lost here in the discussion, and that's the intended target of the Demolisher Cannon. In previous editions, the pie plate and kill-all-things S&AP made it a great anti-infantry weapon; it could kill small elite squads and big blobs with equal aplomb. It seems like everyone is still looking at it purely through that lens and if you are, you're wrong.

 

It's not a troop-killer anymore. It's a tank destroyer. Oh no, d6 shots is "unreliable?" A lascannon, krak missile, or multimelta only get one shot. The Demo Cannon has a higher Strength than all of those and roughly equivalent AP across the board. The only reason to shoot this thing at infantry is if they're T5 and you have no vehicular targets in range.

Lascannons and demolisher will both wound 99% of vehicles on a 3+ (there’s no difference between S10 and S9 for hunting almost every vehicle in the game) plus the Lascannons have greater range and are easier to hide.

 

I would say that the fact that it’s S10 actually confirms it’s intent as an anti-infantry vehicle. The extra point of strength makes no difference against vehicles but guarantees you can wound pretty much every infantry model in the game on a 2+.

 

I think the reality is more mundane. The demolisher is a casualty of the change to ‘everything can wound everything’ mechanic and the ‘to wound table’ of 8th edition. It’s impossible to give some weapons the strength, AP, damage and number of shots necessary to make them good at their intended role without making them too good against everything. This is particularly true for weapons that are meant to be good at dealing with hordes like the vindicator.

[Ishagu]

It's a cheap vehicle and D6 is decent enough, especially with a CP re-roll.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I disagree, Markosian. I think that extra point of strength - and the potential >1 shots - mark it out as an anti-tank vehicle. The balancing exchange between it and say a lascannon is range vs rate of fire. Sure, the Las has double the range but the Demo has on average triple the shots and thus triple the potential damage output. Plus, while there are no base T9 vehicles yet, there are various psychic powers, special abilities, and strats that can affect the Toughness of the target or the to-wound roll of the weapon. Might of Heroes for example can boost a Land Raider or Repulsor up to T9, impacting your lascannons' ability to wound that target. A three-shot average is not going to have an appreciable affect on most infantry units, but it can one-shot most light and medium armor.

[Son of Sacrifice]

Your points are all valid, but it's crummy range marks it out as an anti infantry vehicle more than anything. What tanks are you going to be shooting at 24" range? The best tanks in the game will disable it long before it's ever a threat, or just stay out of the way.

[durdle-durdle]

Your points are all valid, but it's crummy range marks it out as an anti infantry vehicle more than anything. What tanks are you going to be shooting at 24" range? The best tanks in the game will disable it long before it's ever a threat, or just stay out of the way.

I mean it can move 12”, with no penalties if it’s ultramarines or iron hands, effectively putting the range to 36”. And even if you take penalties into effect, with more shots it still averages better anyways.

 

A devastator squad with 3 lascannons is 15 points more expensive than a vindicator with less than half the wounds and half the toughness.

 

For the cost of a repulsor executioner, you can buy nearly 2.5 vindicators with the same save, toughness, and movement. You’re trading the extra 3-4 good anti tank shots from those vindicators for the 25-30 extra chaff shots. I’m willing to make that trade. You also get + like 8 wounds between the two vindicators over the executioner. The executioner does have fly though.

 

Like I’m super sold on the vindicator being a tank destroyer that can also ruin super heavy infantry.

[Volt]

 

Your points are all valid, but it's crummy range marks it out as an anti infantry vehicle more than anything. What tanks are you going to be shooting at 24" range? The best tanks in the game will disable it long before it's ever a threat, or just stay out of the way.

I mean it can move 12”, with no penalties if it’s ultramarines or iron hands, effectively putting the range to 36”. And even if you take penalties into effect, with more shots it still averages better anyways.

 

A devastator squad with 3 lascannons is 15 points more expensive than a vindicator with less than half the wounds and half the toughness.

 

For the cost of a repulsor executioner, you can buy nearly 2.5 vindicators with the same save, toughness, and movement. You’re trading the extra 3-4 good anti tank shots from those vindicators for the 25-30 extra chaff shots. I’m willing to make that trade. You also get + like 8 wounds between the two vindicators over the executioner. The executioner does have fly though.

 

Like I’m super sold on the vindicator being a tank destroyer that can also ruin super heavy infantry.

 

Also you can just pack a cheap jump captain or jump lieutenant to call down from reserves on top of 3 vindicators.

[NatBrannigan]

Tank hunting duty is what I had in mind when I looked at a Vindicator. The T8 is really nice actually, takes some heat off a Repulsor since the stats are the same, as far as resilience goes.

[Rodrick]

My first impression was that vindicators suck, but giving it a thought, T8 is awesome and the base cost it's super cheap, could work as a distraction carnifex in IH or UM

[NatBrannigan]

They kind of do suck, but considering how cheap they are they kind if should!

[Xerxus]

Given the 24" range it can not avoid the risk of getting tied up in melee. Will require backup, perhaps running it as Ultramarines is enough.