Is Tor Garadon the first Primaris Hellfury?

[Red_Shift]

Tor Garadon features a new variant of gravis armour with a shoulder mounted heavy weapon and in general it's a re work of the original design that I'm fond of. It removes the pose limiting weapon belts that look like they could catch on things and frees up the hands to use other weapons/equipment (in Garadons case a ridiculously awesome power fist).

 

Now in the space marine codex we have mention of a hellfury unit - is this the form it's likely to take? Gravis with heavy weapons covers another gap in the primaris range and gives a solid fire support unit.

[Captain Idaho]

Honestly I think GW is just evolving the image of the line due to feedback. Whilst there are fans of the "usual" new Marines (meaning Gravis armour), the divide is strong.

 

If a model is a love it or hate it, GW actually has a problem - they want people to universally adore a product and thus more people buy into it.

 

To use Primaris as my example - people like the design of Intercessors much much more than those who don't. That's why we keep getting the same design rehashed with Lieutenants etc. Gravis armour on the other hand is much likely to illicit a response of criticism, therefore this new model has taken feedback and adapted subsequent releases.

 

So whilst I don't believe he's the first of a new type of model, I believe he is the evolution of a design to something more people can buy into. Calgar further took that evolution but you'll note they dropped the silly jump pack vents with Tor Garadon.

[Volt]

I doubt he was a "response" for anything seeing as the Primaris pipeline goes back years now.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Wasn't the hoods of most Gravis units among the most common criticism of the design? Calgar, Feirros and now Tor Garadon have much more subdued and toned back hoods. Maybe nothing but wouldn't be too ot there if they adjusted the design somewhat

[Lemondish]

I'd love any potential Primaris Terminators to follow Tor in design. Fist, free hand for a Cawl pattern Bolter, and an options for the back weapon to tweak the tactical flexibility of the squad. Only thing it needs is the iconic Indomitus pattern helms.

[Captain Idaho]

I doubt he was a "response" for anything seeing as the Primaris pipeline goes back years now.

Cad designs can be changed at any time though. Also, it doesn't take years to produce a new model design if GW wants to.

 

We can't believe that every model we see has been designed 5 years ago. That's WHY they use CAD, this isn't the era of large scale mock ups.

 

Consider that the legs for Primaris are actual recycled from Stormcast and you can see how the CAD has assisted in model design.

[Panzer]

I don't think trying to figure out anything about regular units by looking at named characters will lead to anything.

[Captain Idaho]

Likely not.

 

But it's interesting to see the progression from the fat belly Gravis Captain to the air vent Calgar to this new and decent cross over.

[Race Bannon]

If you have to ask, then maybe. Edited September 21, 2019 by Race Bannon

[Kallas]

Cad designs can be changed at any time though. Also, it doesn't take years to produce a new model design if GW wants to.

CAD might not take much to tweak, but moulds do, and plastic moulds are still big, expensive and hard to adjust.

 

That *would* take time and significant effort to change.

[Red_Shift]

Constructing Feirros just now he has the same groin plate and a similar shoulder mounted weapon so it does look like a new pattern of gravis that is common to the new characters. I think now the cad design work is done it would be relatively simple to make a full kit in a similar style. I think it's a good contender of the hellfury.

[Captain Idaho]

 

Cad designs can be changed at any time though. Also, it doesn't take years to produce a new model design if GW wants to.

CAD might not take much to tweak, but moulds do, and plastic moulds are still big, expensive and hard to adjust.

That *would* take time and significant effort to change.

But who's to say they produced all the moulds as soon as the CAD has been completed? The parts are modular for a start.

[Mandragola]

FWIW I think there are enough walking and shooting Primaris now. Would you actually take a unit of guys with grav guns and power fists, and if so, what for?

 

I'd much sooner see Primaris assault marines and bikes. They've now got a non-gravis jump pack as seen on the suppressors and Shrike, so let's get some squads with them and some nasty close combat weapons - and preferably not just bolt pistols and swords like the poor old reivers.

[Captain Idaho]

I believe GW actually thinks it has given us the assault units a Primaris release would require - Aggressors and Reivers.

 

I also think that is why we won't see any Primaris Terminators for some time.

[Mandragola]

You could well be right. I don't know that we'll ever see Primaris Terminators actually. They sort of fit a different theme entirely - being ancient and almost irreplaceable technology where every suit is unique, as opposed to modern, mass-produced MKX stuff.

 

Wish you hadn't reminded me about reivers. I keep trying to think of a use for them, and keep failing.

[Zustiur]

Expecting a 1:1 replacement/upgrade unit like primaris terminators is a folly. We won't get a unit with power fist and 'cawl pattern storm bolter', just like there's no tactical squad for primaris. It'll be similar, but not the same.

I'm still working on the assumption that gravis is the Terminator equivalent, but I could see an argument that it's a actually a Centurion equivalent.

[Ishagu]

I agree. It's wrong to expect a Primaris Terminator, especially as the new units they get aren't exact mirrors of existing classic models, and in some cases are very unique departures, eg: Suppressors

 

To me Aggressors are a viable Terminator-ish equivalent. They don't have a natural teleport but some chapters allow them to deploy in more exotic ways - RG, WS, DW.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Ishagu

[Leif Bearclaw]

I believe GW actually thinks it has given us the assault units a Primaris release would require - Aggressors and Reivers.

 

I also think that is why we won't see any Primaris Terminators for some time.

I dunno, iirc GW have even classified Agressors as Devastator analogues, not Assault Marines (sorry, can't remember the generic term they've introduced for the squad types right now). That doesn't scream 'we think these are an assault unit to me'. Sure Agressors have power fists, but so did Obliterators for multiple editions. Their primary weapons are guns, and their special rules all revolve around better shooting, not better punching. To me, all of that screams 'this was designed as a shooty unit'.

 

Besides, the fanbase clearly doesn't regard either of those units as 'proper' assault units, as 'actual Primaris melee troops' is the most common wishlisted/desired new unit type. So if GW are paying even half the attention they claim to these days, they'll know this. 2 years is definitely time to adapt to customer reactions, tweak the CAD files and shuffle release schedules. Maybe not a direct Terminator analogue, but I'd be very surprised if the next Primaris wave didn't include something more obviously 'choppy'.

[Lemondish]

I agree. It's wrong to expect a Primaris Terminator, especially as the new units they get aren't exact mirrors of existing classic models, and in some cases are very unique departures, eg: Suppressors

 

To me Aggressors are a viable Terminator-ish equivalent. They don't have a natural teleport but some chapters allow them to deploy in more exotic ways - RG, WS, DW.

Wrong?

 

TIL wishes can be "wrong"

 

What an insulting statement.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't think that logic holds. Vanguard Veterans, Terminator Assault squads and Reivers all hold different positions within a Chapter yet are Elites choices. Despite that, they are assault units in practice.

 

Aggressors are Primaris heavy assault units by intent from GW. They even gave them an extra attack for that very reason.

 

Regardless of that, I believe they are GW's new version of Terminators.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if we see GW react to feedback and make more classical looking Terminator Primaris, but I don't believe that is the plan. And since Primaris sells, why would GW change the plan?

[Kallas]

 

I agree. It's wrong to expect a Primaris Terminator, especially as the new units they get aren't exact mirrors of existing classic models, and in some cases are very unique departures, eg: Suppressors

Wrong?

 

TIL wishes can be "wrong"

 

What an insulting statement.

 

Dial it back. Ishagu said that's it's wrong to expect a Primaris Terminator unit, and made a pretty solid point about why. Primaris don't have exact duplicates of Marines: some of them are similar in function (eg, Hellblasters and Devastators) but the design philosophy is distinct.

 

We do already have Aggressors, and with their T5 3W, they are more resilient than Terminators in a lot of instances, while costing about the same. I wouldn't be surprised if GW has 'filled' the Terminator 'slot' in the Primaris line.

[Panzer]

I don't think that logic holds. Vanguard Veterans, Terminator Assault squads and Reivers all hold different positions within a Chapter yet are Elites choices. Despite that, they are assault units in practice.

 

Aggressors are Primaris heavy assault units by intent from GW. They even gave them an extra attack for that very reason.

 

Regardless of that, I believe they are GW's new version of Terminators.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if we see GW react to feedback and make more classical looking Terminator Primaris, but I don't believe that is the plan. And since Primaris sells, why would GW change the plan?

Well that's mostly because Elites have traditional been the Veteran units which don't have any specific role unlike Battleline, Close support and Fire support.

It's only relatively recent that GW started to put Fire Support into the Elite and Fast Attack sections etc.

 

Aggressors are definitely designated as Fire support, not as Close support, though.

Edited September 23, 2019 by sfPanzer

[Mandragola]

 

I agree. It's wrong to expect a Primaris Terminator, especially as the new units they get aren't exact mirrors of existing classic models, and in some cases are very unique departures, eg: Suppressors

 

To me Aggressors are a viable Terminator-ish equivalent. They don't have a natural teleport but some chapters allow them to deploy in more exotic ways - RG, WS, DW.

Wrong?

 

TIL wishes can be "wrong"

 

What an insulting statement.

 

 

I think Ishagu means it's wrong to expect it to actually happen - not wrong to want it to happen. Obviously wanting stuff is fine :)

 

Personally I've got no idea what will happen. I will say that for the subject of this thread, that I don't think it's likely that Tor represents a new troop type, and more than any of the other special characters does. I don't think Shrike represents a new bunch of guys with jump packs and lightning claws either, for example.

 

If I had to guess I'd say that we've probably seen all the Primaris releases we'll get this year - with the possible exception of whatever is in this rumoured BT box.

 

There's lots of stuff that I'd like to see. It would be great to see some old kits, like landspeeders, with Primaris pilots. I'd like to see something that shows us how Primaris get down from their spaceships - so a new drop pod and/or flyer transport (and hopefully not a massive FW one that costs too many points to actually use). I'd like to see some sort of proper fast attack unit with choppy weapons and jump packs/bikes/jetbikes. And finally a universal upgrade sprue with a load of pistols, close combat weapons, storm sheilds and so on, to make these available for Primaris Sergeants and characters.

 

So not a short list! 

[Captain Idaho]

 

I don't think that logic holds. Vanguard Veterans, Terminator Assault squads and Reivers all hold different positions within a Chapter yet are Elites choices. Despite that, they are assault units in practice.

Aggressors are Primaris heavy assault units by intent from GW. They even gave them an extra attack for that very reason.

Regardless of that, I believe they are GW's new version of Terminators.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see GW react to feedback and make more classical looking Terminator Primaris, but I don't believe that is the plan. And since Primaris sells, why would GW change the plan?

 

Well that's mostly because Elites have traditional been the Veteran units which don't have any specific role unlike Battleline, Close support and Fire support.

It's only relatively recent that GW started to put Fire Support into the Elite and Fast Attack sections etc.

 

Aggressors are definitely designated as Fire support, not as Close support, though.

It's irrelevant. Aggressors are designated as Fire Support? What does that matter to their function on the table? They operate as the Primaris version of Terminators without teleport.

[Panzer]

 

 

I don't think that logic holds. Vanguard Veterans, Terminator Assault squads and Reivers all hold different positions within a Chapter yet are Elites choices. Despite that, they are assault units in practice.

Aggressors are Primaris heavy assault units by intent from GW. They even gave them an extra attack for that very reason.

Regardless of that, I believe they are GW's new version of Terminators.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see GW react to feedback and make more classical looking Terminator Primaris, but I don't believe that is the plan. And since Primaris sells, why would GW change the plan?

Well that's mostly because Elites have traditional been the Veteran units which don't have any specific role unlike Battleline, Close support and Fire support.

It's only relatively recent that GW started to put Fire Support into the Elite and Fast Attack sections etc.

 

Aggressors are definitely designated as Fire support, not as Close support, though.

It's irrelevant. Aggressors are designated as Fire Support? What does that matter to their function on the table? They operate as the Primaris version of Terminators without teleport.

 

 

It says a lot about GWs intend. What we ended up with is something completely separate from the likely intend. Also "Terminators without teleport" ... so not terminators at all. More like Centurions.