Have they "jumped the shark" with the Marine Dex(s) power?

[Rob P]

On the primaris forum on Facebook there was a bit of a discussion about iron Hands. One member seemed to think it was frustrating that a FAQ is required within weeks of release and that the play-testing was insufficient whilst another forum member suggested they were a bandwagoner that was now simply frustrated that FOTM was literally FOTM (which OP refuted).

 

When the discussion focused on the nature of FAQs and the concept that the book was released in beta it settled more into a comparison with WoW and how things are frequently patched.

 

It does seem to me that the books are released prematurely. If you have a nice fancy new book, it's nice for it to be right as long as possible. Should beta rules precede the print? Should the book be in a filofax with FAQ'd pages reprinted and available for free from the local GW?

[McElMcNinja]

The funniest part to me is everyone expects FAQ's, to point where we all know one is coming. I personally don't go buy the latest and greatest, because I know the rules are going to change. Then after the change I re-evaluate my purchase. I can only assume GW knows people will impulse buy the new stuff especially when it's broken, why not cash in on that and then fix.

As a community I would think everyone would rather them release the rules right the first time.

[Ishagu]

GW have announced openly that every book and codex will get an FAQ within a few weeks of release. Edited October 20, 2019 by Ishagu

[RandomMarine]

As a IH player I'm generally ok with with the Faq, feirros invul should at least effect dreads but oh well can't have everything, and at least I might be able to get a game using the supplement without a audible groan from my opponents

[jaxom]

I think a question, that if answered, would assuage a lot of people is: What did it look like when Iron Hands lost during the play testing?

[GrinNfool]

I think a question, that if answered, would assuage a lot of people is: What did it look like when Iron Hands lost during the play testing?

Really bad dice probably

[MARK0SIAN]

I think a question, that if answered, would assuage a lot of people is: What did it look like when Iron Hands lost during the play testing?

The problem is that we have no idea what they mean by playtesting. I have a suspicion that, rather than people actively trying to break it and find the OP combos, it’s much more casual.

 

Iron Hands might’ve lost a lot in playtesting because people weren’t playing them optimally. I mean, if GW themselves didn’t spot some of the obviously OP stuff (it had to be pointed out by their playtesters) then they can’t have been trying that hard during their internal tests.

[Panzer]

People who complain about a quick FAQ just after the release of a Codex make one major mistake. They assume the Codex would've been of better quality if those FAQs didn't exist. However that's definitely not true. If they wouldn't exist we'd simply be stuck with broken rules for several years instead as it has happened more than once in the history of warhammer.

[BitsHammer]

 

I think a question, that if answered, would assuage a lot of people is: What did it look like when Iron Hands lost during the play testing?

The problem is that we have no idea what they mean by playtesting. I have a suspicion that, rather than people actively trying to break it and find the OP combos, it’s much more casual.

 

Iron Hands might’ve lost a lot in playtesting because people weren’t playing them optimally. I mean, if GW themselves didn’t spot some of the obviously OP stuff (it had to be pointed out by their playtesters) then they can’t have been trying that hard during their internal tests.

They have stated that they use multiple groups for playtesting. Reese who runs the ITC format is one of their matched play testers but they also have narrative testera too. Edited October 20, 2019 by Fulkes

[BitsHammer]

People who complain about a quick FAQ just after the release of a Codex make one major mistake. They assume the Codex would've been of better quality if those FAQs didn't exist. However that's definitely not true. If they wouldn't exist we'd simply be stuck with broken rules for several years instead as it has happened more than once in the history of warhammer.

Even without the FAQ there is a limit to how much time can be reasonably spent trying to suss out potential issues. And chances are what's in the book is the refined stuff that made something that was unplayable (as in broken either good or bad) playable (as in less broken). Sometimes they overshoot the mark though and we see something come out too strong or completely DoA.

[Ishagu]

Reece said something on his podcast, Signals.

 

People complain about the stuff that gets through, but have no idea about the stuff that gets caught and never sees the light of day.

[Wulf Vengis]

I'd love to see the unreleased Warhammer 40,000 rules collection...

[ERJAK]

Reece said something on his podcast, Signals.

People complain about the stuff that gets through, but have no idea about the stuff that gets caught and never sees the light of day.

I think this is a pretty interesting point. We really don't have any idea what shadows lurk just out of sight with some of these codexes.

 

I don't know about you guys but I still remember a time where getting a 2++ rerollable invul with a feel no pain on top was trivial for most marine and chaos armies.

 

The fact that this iron hands combo was pretty much the worst thing we've seen since full strength Guillyraven AND it got fixed is actually miraculous. In 7th this would have been a jokey gimmick you played in beer and pretzels game, compared to the stuff that was out their at the time.

 

1 khorne dog was mathematically tougher in 7th than the 'unkillable' leviathan combo. Seriously, it's about 60 lascannons to kill a fully buffed leviathan vs 129 for a NON-INVISIBLE buffed khorne dog.

Edited October 20, 2019 by ERJAK

[Wulf Vengis]

Warhammer 40,000 warp edition. All the unreleased crazy crap in one big book covering all rule/Codecies/supplements...

[BitsHammer]

Warhammer 40,000 warp edition. All the unreleased crazy crap in one big book covering all rule/Codecies/supplements...

Only if it comes in a book where the cover won't stay on because it's not glued on.

[Wulf Vengis]

3rd/4th edition Codex style. I love it.

[Dark Shepherd]

Reece said something on his podcast, Signals.

 

People complain about the stuff that gets through, but have no idea about the stuff that gets caught and never sees the light of day.

I have a page of warlord traits in both editions of the Space Wolves codex that says otherwise :)

 

Seriously they TOOK OUT the one damn meta worthy warlord trait that was in there (plus one attack and no morale for Wulfen, TWC, and beasts) to make them more fluffy/improve weaker ones

Edited October 21, 2019 by Dark Shepherd

[mughi3]

Warhammer 40,000 warp edition. All the unreleased crazy crap in one big book covering all rule/Codecies/supplements...

The Matt Ward edition?

[BitsHammer]

 

Warhammer 40,000 warp edition. All the unreleased crazy crap in one big book covering all rule/Codecies/supplements...

The Matt Ward edition?

Nah, too much internal balance. More like the Phil Kelly edition with random tables that tell you which random tables to roll on.

[Dark Shepherd]

Its going to be harder catching opponents making mistakes or even xheating now, sooo much to keep track of

[mughi3]

Its going to be harder catching opponents making mistakes or even xheating now, sooo much to keep track of

good thing I only play non tourney games with friends at the FLGS. if we make a mistake we let everybody know what the rule actually is.

Sometimes we just agree that a rule is dumb and we don't use it.

[Dark Shepherd]

 

Its going to be harder catching opponents making mistakes or even xheating now, sooo much to keep track of

good thing I only play non tourney games with friends at the FLGS. if we make a mistake we let everybody know what the rule actually is.

Sometimes we just agree that a rule is dumb and we don't use it.

I like the "honourcode" aspect of the game but its going to be hard helping new players or even people new to certain armies without going super slow

[mughi3]

I like the "honourcode" aspect of the game but its going to be hard helping new players or even people new to certain armies without going super slow

Well unfortunately bloat has always been a thing with GW. we all love the universe they created and how great the miniatures have become, I mean were on a forum dedicated to their games. back when they first started out it was more of a skirmish game so the bloat (2 pages of rules for a leman russ in 2nd) was more manageable. when it became more of an army game with 3rd they attempted some good streamlining. they have always had the rules writing problem since they viewed it as a more narrative game and it became more of a competitive tournament style game where players tried to bend the rules as much as possible to give them an edge.

 

 

In the end they are victims of their own success. they have made the universe so diverse and so in depth every faction has to be different in skills, abilities, and weapons. in dust for example each faction only has 1 special weapon used only by them that is different, in infinity all weapons no matter the faction have exactly the same profile. it is modified by special gear but it is special gear that has the same stats across the board no matter who has it. the divergence is in the units ie their skill stats to use it. they also have a command point system but it is limited to 4 for every army, you can never get more or get them back and they are only useable for 7 specific actions.

 

in 8th at first with the indexes it appeared they were going to streamline it even more, with the removal of templates, terrain effects on cover and movement, the weapon skill comparison chart, the ballistic skill chart, vehicle facing etc.....

 

however just like 4th edition they turned around and went more complex with stratagems(more than every faction needs as a d6 system it should have stayed at most 6), random shifting card objectives, character beacon abilities and command point spam...and then made it different for every faction.

 

Now it is a marketing strategy. to maintain sales of miniatures and expansions over years. they have every player waiting to see what goodies the next codex brings.

 

Honestly I do not know how you can speed up game play for new players without 1.playing smaller games, 2.implementing house rules 3.really knowing your army and explaining special rules to the other player before the game starts.

[MegaVolt87]

Back in the day when I was new, I appreciated the SM guy who taught me the busted cheese with my 3.5 CSM BL. It's good for vets to take in a 40k noob and teach IMO.

[BitsHammer]

I've been thinking about it a fair bit lately, in part due to Psychic Awakening, but I feel like that like the 8.0 Marine codex the 8.5 codex is less a shark jump and more showing us the direction the game will be taking in the future. More custom rules for your own custom sub-factions, and more rules that give the armies more flavor and oomph (Combat Doctrines, expanded Exarch powers, ect).

 

Like when the first Marine book came out this means we'll have a period where Marines top the heap, but it looks like PA might be an attempt to curb that by pushing out multiple faction updates at the same time to bring everything more in line with the Marines.