Have they "jumped the shark" with the Marine Dex(s) power?

[BitsHammer]

The discussion, IIRC, was more about quitting tournaments, which have a high churn anyways.

[RandomMarine]

Tbh I took issue with the recent episode of chapter tactics. We had Pablo (a guy who uses eldar flyer spam) calling for a a blanket ban on all codex marine supplements when he runs a list that 3 entire factions autolose against, up until this point i used to listen every week now I don't think I'll bother anymore. That podcast is supposedly a objective competitive podcast now it's obvious is "fair and balanced" like fox news

[GrinNfool]

Tbh I took issue with the recent episode of chapter tactics. We had Pablo (a guy who uses eldar flyer spam) calling for a a blanket ban on all codex marine supplements when he runs a list that 3 entire factions autolose against, up until this point i used to listen every week now I don't think I'll bother anymore. That podcast is supposedly a objective competitive podcast now it's obvious is "fair and balanced" like fox news

I agree his assessment was over dramatic... but you are kinda misrepresenting what he said here.  He said that IF gw didn't address it soon, and that this was just going to be the power of IH and future marine supplements that they might have to ban the use of marine supplements if the meta becomes marines or nothing for the sake of tournament health.  That isn't quite the same as calling for all marine supplements to be banned.  Which I do believe as the pod cast continued he later added, but thats the nuclear last resort option.  I thought he was a bit too much in the sky is falling camp, but I also don't think its fair to make him sound like he just said marine's shouldn't get supplements.

 

Not arguing you should listen to their pod cast or anyone else's do what makes you happy .  IMHO at this point I think things are in wait and see mode.  Very little they changed affects IH flyer lists, or any of the more mobile lists that won.  At this point I think the thing that probably needs looking at IF ANYTHING note I am not saying NERF THIS just probably a we should keep an eye on it, is how successors work.  Being able to choose tactics, and combine them with super doctrines and all the strategems seems like it could cause some serious head aches for balance.  Salamanders as an example pairing with the extra range.  Its all wait and see for the moment though.  I think its likely that they probably need to address that but no telling.

Edited October 18, 2019 by GrinNfool

[RandomMarine]

Tbh what got me the most was him calling for a ban when he himself plays a broken list that a 3rd of the factions are auto-lose against, the hypocrisy is stunning and if he has a ounce of self awareness he know it too

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Plus one of the guest hosts on that episode won LVO with the 3++ Krastellan... pot meet kettle.

[Vermintide]

Everyone is more susceptible than bias than they'd like to admit, I think.

For us Marine fans, it's hard not to defend the new rules, even if they are OP, because as many people have pointed out they've been rubbish for a long time now. Likewise, for the kind of person who plays Eldar, let alone the kind of person who plays Eldar flyer spam, it's going to be a very rude awakening to be on the receiving end of some cheese for a change

To be completely fair though, it does sound a little like the supplements are the OP part; not the basic marine 'dex, and that basic book still lets you play a reasonably flavourful representation of a chapter. Leaving supplements out of tournament play would be a band-aid temporary fix until we see what GW plans to do with the other factions.

I think there's just a bit of values dissonance going on, where certain armies are "allowed" to be OP, because you have to be a good player to take advantage of it. The reason people are throwing their toys out of the pram is because IH are both really good and really easy, and we just can't have that. I would argue meta-game aspects like how easy the rules are to remember shouldn't be taken into account for gampeplay balance, but that's just me.

I'd also argue that most armies people contend to be "hard to play", such as DE, are not inherently harder at all, in a strategic sense. You just have to remember a bunch more stuff.

[Ishagu]

I wouldn't go as far as saying the supplements are OP. There isn't enough data to support that, unlike what happened with Iron Hands who made up 10% of all lists in multiple mid-large scale events.

There simply aren't as many people playing RG, Ultras and WS to decide on anything. I can tell you that I have played a bunch of games with the Ultras and they are overall better than they were in the old codex but they aren't broken in any way. There isn't a combination of rules that can crush any list or tactic, they are simply a solid army all round.

I think RG and WS are more dangerous, but they also have a high risk/high reward style of play that reqards more skill and tactics based play.

 

I should mention that even if Marines ARE the strongest, there is nothing wrong with that as long as the gap is managable and they can be defeated by good play. Eldar have been the best for years, and not just in 8th, they were monstrous in 7th and 6th editions too.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

I wouldn't go as far as saying the supplements are OP. There isn't enough data to support that, unlike what happened with Iron Hands who made up 10% of all lists in multiple mid-large scale events.

There simply aren't as many people playing RG, Ultras and WS to decide on anything. I can tell you that I have played a bunch of games with the Ultras and they are overall better than they were in the old codex but they aren't broken in any way. There isn't a combination of rules that can crush any list or tactic, they are simply a solid army all round.

I think RG and WS are more dangerous, but they also have a high risk/high reward style of play that reqards more skill and tactics based play.

This. Also, this is probably how it should be. Ultramarines being all-purpose but not as scary, White Scars and Raven Guard being less all-purpose but scarier in the right context. With the nerfs, Iron Hands should probably be with White Scars and Raven Guard.

[ERJAK]

What are the odds of the new Sisters codex being Iron Hands (or even new Space Marines) level powerful? If low, what does that say about the idea that GW is going to rebalance the game at a higher power level?

Literally zero.

 

I'd put more money on them being Grey Knights level of powerful (and interesting) than on being IH level.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

 

What are the odds of the new Sisters codex being Iron Hands (or even new Space Marines) level powerful? If low, what does that say about the idea that GW is going to rebalance the game at a higher power level?

Literally zero.

 

I'd put more money on them being Grey Knights level of powerful (and interesting) than on being IH level.

 

So weak but with super interesting and weird abilities and builds, if I read that correctly, right?

 

I played against Grey Knights today (1k Word Bearers Infantry vs. 1k Grey Knights Infantry in Zone Mortalis terrain, using Open Play casting and a special rule from the 3rd Edition Daemonhunters Codex which let me infinitely respawn my Daemonettes on my table edge) and managed to melee Kaldor Draigo off the table. Grey Knights have LOTS of fun, fluffy abilities about them... but they're a lower-tier army as far as I know, right?

[Azekai]

A friend from another group says Salamanders are the most powerful of the supplements, which will be funny if IH suddenly become yesterdays news

 

In general it feels like with back to the start of 8th with updated codex v codex replacing codex v index for powerfullness

Makes me wish we just had the index, frankly. GW has gone way past small tweaks in army disposition and there is no reason that Salamanders or Iron Hands should be better than Space Wolves or Blood Angels.

 

It all feels so arbitrary and poorly thought out.

[Dark Shepherd]

 

A friend from another group says Salamanders are the most powerful of the supplements, which will be funny if IH suddenly become yesterdays news

 

In general it feels like with back to the start of 8th with updated codex v codex replacing codex v index for powerfullness

Makes me wish we just had the index, frankly. GW has gone way past small tweaks in army disposition and there is no reason that Salamanders or Iron Hands should be better than Space Wolves or Blood Angels.

 

It all feels so arbitrary and poorly thought out.

As a (mono) SW player I feel your pain.

Due to focus on, and profits from, Primaris the non codex compliant chapters are a bit left out. Deathwatch seem to be forgotten about in every new model rules release. But multi army players means more sales

 

To be optimistic if they do so 2.0 codexes theres no reason not to do them close together. And PA books and rules seem to be coming out fast

[RandomMarine]

Well GW tend to write the imperial astartes books all at the same and then just spread them out over the release cycle as seen by the first round of 8th Ed codices I imagine you lot will be on a similar power level as the supplements

[Dark Shepherd]

Well GW tend to write the imperial astartes books all at the same and then just spread them out over the release cycle as seen by the first round of 8th Ed codices I imagine you lot will be on a similar power level as the supplements

But when? When? Ich bin hungrig

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well GW tend to write the imperial astartes books all at the same and then just spread them out over the release cycle as seen by the first round of 8th Ed codices I imagine you lot will be on a similar power level as the supplements

Absurd.

[RandomMarine]

 

Well GW tend to write the imperial astartes books all at the same and then just spread them out over the release cycle as seen by the first round of 8th Ed codices I imagine you lot will be on a similar power level as the supplements

Absurd.

Really when on voxcast the head of the rules team for 8th said SM,SW,DA and BA codices were written all at the same time and then spread out over the cycle so it wasn't 5 months of b2b marines at the start of the edition.

[Gederas]

Well GW tend to write the imperial astartes books all at the same and then just spread them out over the release cycle as seen by the first round of 8th Ed codices I imagine you lot will be on a similar power level as the supplements

Absurd.

Really when on voxcast the head of the rules team for 8th said SM,SW,DA and BA codices were written all at the same time and then spread out over the cycle so it wasn't 5 months of b2b marines at the start of the edition.

I mean, that makes sense. People complain (well, I'd use a more strong word, but it's not allowed on the board. You know which one :lol:) about Marines getting new stuff all the frigging time.

 

Imagine if we had 5 months of NOTHING but Marine codices. Those same people would lose their minds :lol:

[Dark Shepherd]

All the more reason to release them over a much shorter timeframe :)

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

 

Well GW tend to write the imperial astartes books all at the same and then just spread them out over the release cycle as seen by the first round of 8th Ed codices I imagine you lot will be on a similar power level as the supplements

Absurd.

Really when on voxcast the head of the rules team for 8th said SM,SW,DA and BA codices were written all at the same time and then spread out over the cycle so it wasn't 5 months of b2b marines at the start of the edition.

I mean, that makes sense. People complain (well, I'd use a more strong word, but it's not allowed on the board. You know which one :lol:) about Marines getting new stuff all the frigging time.

 

Imagine if we had 5 months of NOTHING but Marine codices. Those same people would lose their minds :lol:

Whilst you’re not wrong, That’s only because the timescales are artificial though. They’ve just shown they can easily release 7 different marine books in less than three months and that’s with releasing other stuff in between like psychic awakening.

 

There’s no reason it would have to take 5 months if they didn’t want it to. GWs weird desire to artificially extend their release schedules is the only thing that would make it drag on for months.

[Wulf Vengis]

It's not a weird desire it's sales strategy. They don't want a lump sum of cash across a few months, they want you hooked and having to buy something all year long so they stagger the Codecies across a larger span of time. 8th edition has been some what better about this though; what with the indexes all at once in the beginning and now the marine supplements, though staggered are much closer together with other releases in between.

[MARK0SIAN]

It's not a weird desire it's sales strategy. They don't want a lump sum of cash across a few months, they want you hooked and having to buy something all year long so they stagger the Codecies across a larger span of time. 8th edition has been some what better about this though; what with the indexes all at once in the beginning and now the marine supplements, though staggered are much closer together with other releases in between.

It’s still weird. They’re getting the exact same amount of money from me whether they release it all in one month or over a year. I don’t get what difference it makes when they receive it. And even if you’re right, it’s still an entirely artificial delay. There’s no reason if they wanted to release all the marine books at once it would need to take 5 months.

 

It’s also better for the overall health of the game. Balance would certainly be easier if there was as little time between codexes as possible because you’d be assessing power of faction on an even playing field.

[Wulf Vengis]

I can't disagree with you on any of that to be honest.

[mughi3]

Yeah that's because you are all a bunch of crack addicts, little plastic toy soldier crack addicts.............(Looks over at my 3 or 4 footlocker sized containers of minis from warmachine/infinity/dust/40K/epic 40K/battletech/battlefleet gothic/Babylon 5 wars).  nope nothing to see here

 

 

At least my wife likes it better when I spend all day at the game store and not at a bar/strip club or watching some silly team sports on TV (when they took away the swords I lost interest in them)    :P

[Panzer]

 

It's not a weird desire it's sales strategy. They don't want a lump sum of cash across a few months, they want you hooked and having to buy something all year long so they stagger the Codecies across a larger span of time. 8th edition has been some what better about this though; what with the indexes all at once in the beginning and now the marine supplements, though staggered are much closer together with other releases in between.

It’s still weird. They’re getting the exact same amount of money from me whether they release it all in one month or over a year. I don’t get what difference it makes when they receive it. And even if you’re right, it’s still an entirely artificial delay. There’s no reason if they wanted to release all the marine books at once it would need to take 5 months.

 

It’s also better for the overall health of the game. Balance would certainly be easier if there was as little time between codexes as possible because you’d be assessing power of faction on an even playing field.

 

 

It's not necessarily about how much money they get from people directly. They just want that the community has something to look for and talk about the whole time instead of having big holes filled with nothing inbetween.

[Wulf Vengis]

They could fill those holes with other stuff...like psychic awakening or supplements (assuming they released all Codecies at the same time).

 

EDIT: we're off topic here and should consider veering back on however.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Wulf Vengis