Have they "jumped the shark" with the Marine Dex(s) power?

[Panzer]

The reason why the BA Smash Captain is so good is not purely because of the damage but also because of it's reliability. Not much that beats 3d6 charges with a Jump Pack with re-rolls and no overwatch.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

The reason why the BA Smash Captain is so good is not purely because of the damage but also because of it's reliability. Not much that beats 3d6 charges with a Jump Pack with re-rolls and no overwatch.

AND REMAINS GOOD! Thank you! You have to roll somewhat poorly to fail a Smashy.

[Schlitzaf]

The reason why the BA Smash Captain is so good is not purely because of the damage but also because of it's reliability. Not much that beats 3d6 charges with a Jump Pack with re-rolls and no overwatch.

Vs 2d6 Charge Free Rerolls, and 4+ physic deny. Just to note that. Templar one espacially w/ change in codex is also reliable.

[Link2edition]

 

The reason why the BA Smash Captain is so good is not purely because of the damage but also because of it's reliability. Not much that beats 3d6 charges with a Jump Pack with re-rolls and no overwatch.

Vs 2d6 Charge Free Rerolls, and 4+ physic deny. Just to note that. Templar one espacially w/ change in codex is also reliable.

 

Templar do not have the deny ability as of the 8.5 codex.

[Schlitzaf]

 

 

 

The reason why the BA Smash Captain is so good is not purely because of the damage but also because of it's reliability. Not much that beats 3d6 charges with a Jump Pack with re-rolls and no overwatch.

Vs 2d6 Charge Free Rerolls, and 4+ physic deny. Just to note that. Templar one espacially w/ change in codex is also reliable.

Templar do not have the deny ability as of the 8.5 codex.

I know; but we are likely to get it back in our supplement

[Panzer]

 

The reason why the BA Smash Captain is so good is not purely because of the damage but also because of it's reliability. Not much that beats 3d6 charges with a Jump Pack with re-rolls and no overwatch.

Vs 2d6 Charge Free Rerolls, and 4+ physic deny. Just to note that. Templar one espacially w/ change in codex is also reliable.

 

 

The BA Smash Captain has 'free' charge rerolls as well with the relic Jump Pack that denies overwatch.

[Wulf Vengis]

I wouldn't be so sure about getting that Deny ruling back for Templar, unfortunately. If they stick you guys with librarians and psykers all over your Codex as they've been doing the past few editions you'll most likely be SOL on that.

 

All that said however i do hope with with the possibility of your own supplement incoming GW just "forgets" librarians and other psykers or flat out says NO Templar psykers. This would give a valid reason to grant you a deny save. Most likely it won't be as good as the Sisters version, but you should have something to represent your unyielding zea... I'm sorry i meant ZEAL!! against the mutant and witch.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Wulf Vengis

[Schlitzaf]

But then it’s not Slamganius; in which case he has 16 attacks, average 12.50 (13 if rounding), then 8.34 (8.66) wounds with 7-7.22 wounds and only 21-22 damage vs knights and 8.6-9 dead marines. Sigislash (Teeth) is nearly the same vs Knights and almost double Dead MeQ. And Hammer Slash is straight Better.

 

@Wulf you realize Templar’s NEVER had Librarians like ever? Sense we had our own rules. And other marine chapters having them and appearing codex that we are in doesn’t = we use them.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Schlitzaf

[Wulf Vengis]

Oh i understand that after the 4th ed Codex was abolished and you got sadly rolled you didn't HAVE to take them. I just hope GW does the right by you guys and makes it official (again).

Also perhaps they should clarify that your acceptance of navigators (based on their necessity) does not equate to "WE LOVE THE LIBRARIANS", as they kinda leaned towards the last few editions.

 

Actually i was thinking of this last night. What if the templar were so against psykers and mutants that they didn't even trust/have navigators? (I know they have navigators but follow me here.) It would help to explain why there's so many Black Templar crusade fleets running around the Imperium.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Wulf Vengis

[Link2edition]

Black Templar will never have Librarians, it goes against the entire chapters identity.

That would be like adding dark angel HQs to the space wolf codex.

[Wulf Vengis]

That's what I'm saying Link. Let GW make it official in a supplement. I miss the Templar having their own book...

[Schlitzaf]

We literally cannot Wulf. It’s in the codex “Adeptus Astartes Pysker cannot be Black Templar”. Also because Navigators aren’t witches they are doing something vaguely sciencey and understandable. Instead of blasting with eldritch insanity it’s making the insanity into sanity and thus science.

[BitsHammer]

I'm confused by the thread title. Did GW jump the Carcharadons or are we relying on Spikey Bits level clickbait?

 

Space Marines were not in a good place before this codex, and even got nerfed to keep them from overpowering index armies. They weren't exactly doing great in tournaments either. Now we not only have a decent book, but one that is promoting more builds than Guilliman + a bunch of tanks and devastators and it's too much?

[Wulf Vengis]

@Schlitzaf: I must have missed that. Thank goodness that's cleared that up then. Just uh, ignore me then.

 

I still want you to have your own supplement though.

[Morticon]

I'm confused by the thread title. Did GW jump the Carcharadons or are we relying on Spikey Bits level clickbait?

 

Space Marines were not in a good place before this codex, and even got nerfed to keep them from overpowering index armies. They weren't exactly doing great in tournaments either. Now we not only have a decent book, but one that is promoting more builds than Guilliman + a bunch of tanks and devastators and it's too much?

 

Not sure if the question is sardonic, but will assume in good faith you didnt understand the term "jump the shark" ->>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark

 

You're 100% right on a few accounts. Space Marines were in a TERRIBLE place before the dex.  Also, they now have a spectacular book.  BUT... yes, they could possibly be too much (new cycle depending - this talking point was the point of the thread) However, implying that these things cannot be mutually exclusive is non-sequitur.

The argument that its okay to be broken because they werent before is not a logically sound one.  Neither is, "we have more builds now, so OP is OK". 

 

That being said, as the original poster, and as I mentioned, in my last post, I hadnt really considered the "new cycle" argument on account of a new codex cycle (starting with marines) usually comes at the start of a new edition.  If the rest of the codicies follow suit- it shouldnt be an issue - aside from the gripes with the unkillable dready as mentioned. 

 

 

 

 Dreadnoughts aren't made to be unkillable, sure they're way tougher for IH but again they're not broken. 

/snip

I mean regarding the 'unkillable Dreadnought' shenanigans:

 

Bray'arth Ashmantle says "Hello". How's a Toughness 9, 8 Wound, 2+/5++/4+++ Dreadnought that's a Character sound?

 

It simply seems Iron Hands saw Bray'arth and thought "Huh... We need this."

 

 

It's not the Dreadnought stats that are the problem, although the Leviathan is nearly double the Wounds of Ashmantle. The issue is the reduction in Damage through assorted Stratagems, Relics, and Traits, so that lascannon that does D6 wounds now does 1 less (to a minimum of 1) and then halves the remaining damage that it would have received, so now instead of taking a potential 6 wounds, is taking 3 at most. Combine that with the sheer amount of repairing the Iron Hands can do, and it gets a bit crazy.

 

 

If you are smart you half first and then reduce it by 1 so a Lascannon does only 2 damage at most.

 

Rules say you add/subtract then multiply/divide .

[Morticon]

 

But also, you don't shoot Str8 2 damage stuff into a T8 dread that halves wounds and expect to do much, Morticon.

You gotta pack Str9.

Just like killing the old 3+++ Castellans

Lascannons, assuming no buffs at all, take 3 shots to land 1 hit though.

-1 damage, then halving rounding up, means that a D6 damage roll is actually

1,1,1,2,2,3.

Meaning your average damage is 1 and 2/3rds a damage, before FNP.

I mean, that's ridiculously tough, but it isn't invulnerable.

28 lascannon shots before the FNP, so 36 after.

 

You have 1.3 lascannon shots going through armour per 6 shots fired.  

 

You then have an average of 3 wounds taken per 12 lascannons, BEFORE FNP.  With FNP at 5+, you're looking at 2.  With 4+,which they can get, even less. 

28 lascannons do around 5 wounds total on average with 4+ FNP.

But also, how many CP is that dread costing?

It's 1 for character status, 1 for the warlord trait, maybe 1 for the iron stone, or more likely whatever other relic you want, and the half damage on the dread is both unique and also costs 1 CP per phase.

So you can only ever have 1 "unkillable" dread, because halving the damage is the primary damage reduction except against D2.

Secondly, just having the setup for 1 turn costs 3-4 CP, plus of course the cost of the unit's themselves in points.

 

With marine brigades or double-batts- this isn't a huge thing. 

 

And nothing except the FNP matters vs mortal wounds, since they're increments of 1 damage.

So, several armies just...

Don't care.

And because it's Iron Hands, the overwatch is scary, but if you lock it in combat, it isn't shooting you, and Leviathans with a melee weapon aren't exactly common these days.

Double stormcannon is the "meta"

So it basically has no melee capability itself.

 

I agree with this- i think that's part in parcel of beating them.  Personally, I'd be running the dread with a drill and student of history. But, that's just me. 

 

Also also, are we sure what order the half damage and the -1 damage go in?

Cause it matters a lot vs 4, 5, and 6 damage.

 

As per rulebook

 

You can also, like, kill the guy carrying the ironstone.

Eliminators can probably do it eventually, or just the usual tactic of send a smash captain or other such melee unit in, kill the relic holder, then turn and junk the leviathan.

 

This is going to be my tactic for beating them! Big key to it. 

 

But unlike Castellans, no dreadnought kills enough stuff that its impossible to just play around.

You can lock it in combat, it doesn't have stomps, and it's got notably less firepower even with the double stormcannon.

 

You can try, for sure- it's the best tactic vs them imo.

 

Anyway, all I'm saying is that I dont see the dreads making that huge of splash in the competitive scene.

But they are pretty disgusting in any kind of casual setting.

 

The ITC i just played in China saw the tied first place (2nd overall on SoS) go to an UM dread list - i played it too.  Very, very, strong . If it was IH, would have been miles worse. 

 

That being said, I dont think theyre unbeatable - my concern is that unkillable units are a troubling precedent that signals "shark-jumpy" vibes.  

[BitsHammer]

I understand what jumping the shark is, I was disagreeing with the question which reads more like clickbait than a topic starter.

 

And I don't feel the new Marines break the curve. Force people to adjust to actually needing to deal with them as a real threat maybe, but not break the curve.

[Morticon]

I understand what jumping the shark is, I was disagreeing with the question which reads more like clickbait than a topic starter.

 

That's a fair enough opinion.  If others feel that way then I'm even more appreciative that there's been 5 pages of good, thoughtful conversation on the matter! 

[Wulf Vengis]

I don't feel GW have jumped the shark with the Astartes. I do however feel as if the player base is jumping the gun when declaring Astartes broken. There's still a LOT of other Codecies to get their updated release. (All of this I said earlier though.) I understand there are some VERY hard builds now but anything can be dealt with, with enough experience, skill or shear determination.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think the problem is more ITC Missions rather than the new codex and supplements. It can be argued ITC is not proper 40k.

[BitsHammer]

I think the problem is more ITC Missions rather than the new codex and supplements. It can be argued ITC is not proper 40k.

ITC is a decent tournament format that does a reasonable job of trying to flatten the power curve.

 

That said the game isn't balanced for that.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

That said the game isn't balanced.

Fixed.

I've won maybe four times in probably a hundred games in the past year. My opponents vary from the fluffy to the hardcore tourney-styled lists.

[BitsHammer]

 

 

That said the game isn't balanced.

Fixed.

I've won maybe four times in probably a hundred games in the past year. My opponents vary from the fluffy to the hardcore tourney-styled lists.

Considering most armies sit in the 40-50% win rate the game is more balanced than the internet gives it credit for.

[Azekai]

I don't give a flying crap about competitive tourney outcomes, or if the marines 'feel' like however they are portrayed in the propaganda. If allowed to stand unchallenged, the marine codex will be very unhealthy for the game.

No one wants to play a game that feels like it was decided at the outset. We want to play a game, not sign up for a drubbing. Knights were bad enough. Big stompy robots are all well and good, but they don't allow for much interaction from the opponent and were thoroughly unappealing to fight against (hunker down on those objectives, honey!). These new marines suffer the same problem, with the worst offender being the IH dreads, although the DS denying infiltrators are bad too.

This book is an overcorrection. Marines of all stripes have sucked in 8th for a lot of reasons, but you don't fix that by swinging the pendulum the other way.

[toaae]

I think the problem is more ITC Missions rather than the new codex and supplements. It can be argued ITC is not proper 40k.

 

You're always around to point out things you dislike about the community, but how about vocalizing some reasons why you think that? Considering the wide appeal of the ITC format, I'm always curious when someone thinks it's not "proper 40k".